The Sacred Order of Green Men.

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

Ha ha. To be honest, I don't think there is any significance in the Hautdesert/High Hermitage connection. I just thought it was funny.

[The_Crannogman]

Ha ha. To be honest, I don't think there is any significance in the Hautdesert/High Hermitage connection. I just thought it was funny.

Yeah but the best crackpot theories are built on the most tenuous of links.

I've also remembered another order of knights who are connected to the forest and who have antlers on their helmets. They are the keepers of the sacred words, they were some of the most feared knights of Arthurian legend and those who heard their words seldom lived to tell the tale. Their leader is unnaturally tall and they do like nature and green (in the form of a shrubbery)

They of course are the knights who say Ni

[three-eyed monkey]

I looked around at some random literature about the Green Man motif (as per three-eyed monkeys comments). It's interesting, and the parallels between the Green Man and the Green Men are certainly there. I can't say exactly what it means though.

While following one trail to another, I started looking at papers on the Green Knight. There are no obvious connections between the Green Knight and the green men, but one of the translations of the Green Knight's castle -- "Hautdesert" -- stuck out as odd/concidental. One interpretation is that it means "High Hermitage." "Distert" in old Irish apparently means "Hermitage." So the lesson today is that all roads apparently lead to Gerold Emo "Darkstar" Dayne. :P

The Green Man is quite a complicated motif, but in very simple terms it represents the rebirth of spring after the death of winter. It goes back to "pagan" nature gods like Pan or Cernunnos, and connects with the dying god thrope in mythology. Nature bears her fruit at harvest, dies in winter, and then growth returns in spring. In Green Man literature the theme of order v chaos is often explored. The "pagans" considered nature to represent the supreme order and man as a representation of chaos, but this was flipped by "civilised" man, with nature representing chaos and man, order. A lot of stuff you read these days is from the later perspective, (although I'm not certain GRRM sees it that way).

An interesting theme from Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, is the idea of testing chivalry and morals. I think GRRM is exploring this theme too, considering the fall of institutions like the Kingsguard from honourable men like Barristan, through thugs like the Kettleblacks, to Robert Strong. So I see it this way, the realm is going to shit because of the game of thrones, but winter is coming, in fact it has arrived, and the realm is largely oblivious to the threat of the Others. The Green Men keep their silent watch as winter, or more importantly the Long Night, inevitably draws near. Winter is not evil, it's just part of the natural cycle, like death. But the Green Men have a responsibility to ensure that there will be green shoots again in spring.

Yes I did a quick google and saw the Green Knight, Sir Gawain and others. If what you're saying is true and Hautdesert does mean High Hermitage you get some connection between The Greenmen, the reeds, your Gods eye conspiracy with the whents/strong/hightowers and finally the Daynes now bringing together a collection of some of the most mysterious houses in Westeros

Hightowers, Whents, and Daynes you say. Hmm. Where have we seen these three before?

Edit: Only Kidding (sort of), but I don't want to turn this into another ToJ or R+L=J thread.

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

Yeah but the best crackpot theories are built on the most tenuous of links.

I've also remembered another order of knights who are connected to the forest and who have antlers on their helmets. They are the keepers of the sacred words, they were some of the most feared knights of Arthurian legend and those who heard their words seldom lived to tell the tale. Their leader is unnaturally tall and they do like nature and green (in the form of a shrubbery)

They of course are the knights who say Ni

Now it all makes sense. When Arya wargs the Rabbit of Caerbannog, heads will quite literally fly.

[The Snark of Winterfell]

This was the best theory I've seen on these boards in a long time. It addresses the green men in serious detail.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/113179-the-gods-eye-conspiracy-part-i/

[The_Crannogman]

The Green Man is quite a complicated motif, but in very simple terms it represents the rebirth of spring after the death of winter. It goes back to "pagan" nature gods like Pan or Cernunnos, and connects with the dying god thrope in mythology. Nature bears her fruit at harvest, dies in winter, and then growth returns in spring. In Green Man literature the theme of order v chaos is often explored. The "pagans" considered nature to represent the supreme order and man as a representation of chaos, but this was flipped by "civilised" man, with nature representing chaos and man, order. A lot of stuff you read these days is from the later perspective, (although I'm not certain GRRM sees it that way).

An interesting theme from Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, is the idea of testing chivalry and morals. I think GRRM is exploring this theme too, considering the fall of institutions like the Kingsguard from honourable men like Barristan, through thugs like the Kettleblacks, to Robert Strong. So I see it this way, the realm is going to shit because of the game of thrones, but winter is coming, in fact it has arrived, and the realm is largely oblivious to the threat of the Others. The Green Men keep their silent watch as winter, or more importantly the Long Night, inevitably draws near. Winter is not evil, it's just part of the natural cycle, like death. But the Green Men have a responsibility to ensure that there will be green shoots again in spring.

Hightowers, Whents, and Daynes you say. Hmm. Where have we seen these three before?

Edit: Only Kidding (sort of), but I don't want to turn this into another ToJ or R+L=J thread.

With this do you think Winter can be seen as coming and restoring order by wiping out the chaos that is the game of thrones?

Okay now ready for some total crackpottery? If winter will remove the chaos that is the game of thrones and bring about the order nature intended then it will be trying to restore the natural balance which is the balance between fire and ice. Now I believe that the order of greenmen want to restore this balance. So could the greenmen have either facilitated the return of the others or have known that they are returning and have allowed them to rebuild their strength up to a point so they can use the others to restore the natural balance?

[The_Crannogman]

I don't know how relevant this is but it is related to Sir Gawain and the Green knight. There appears to be some evidence that the Green knight of the story is a western interpretation of an islamic story that made its way to Europe after the crusades. The person the Green knight appears to be inspired by is Al-khidr and Kothar-wa-khasis (both fictional men obviously) who had an association to the colour green.

Both are men who apparently had special knowledge and wisdom. Apparently people also believed them to have 'special' powers. They also both either helped to kill dragons or killed dragons themselves, this does have a nice parallel if the Greenmen have taken some active role in killing the dragons. They both are also associated with fertility and Kothar especially is associated with the seasons. They both were also seen as a servant to god/s which again has a parallel to the Greenmen as they are obviously connected to the old gods.

[three-eyed monkey]

With this do you think Winter can be seen as coming and restoring order by wiping out the chaos that is the game of thrones?

Okay now ready for some total crackpottery? If winter will remove the chaos that is the game of thrones and bring about the order nature intended then it will be trying to restore the natural balance which is the balance between fire and ice. Now I believe that the order of greenmen want to restore this balance. So could the greenmen have either facilitated the return of the others or have known that they are returning and have allowed them to rebuild their strength up to a point so they can use the others to restore the natural balance?

Yes, in my opinion the game of thrones will have to be set aside if humanity wants to survive the Others. Of course, in spring, when heroic and honourable men are left to rebuild the realm, the game of thrones will restart and the deterioration of morals will begin all over again. That is the chaos of human nature.

I think the Green Men know about the others, and I think Howland does too. That's why he sent his kids to Bran and ultimately Bloodraven. Whether they facilitated the return of the Others or just knew their return was inevitable, I'm not sure. I lean towards the latter but I'm open-minded about it.

[Elkrider]

I am like 90% certain I saw an excerpt from the World of Ice and Fire that mentioned the Green Men, but I can't find it. I remember that the maester writing it was of the opinion that the Green Men were merely regular men who dressed all in green with antler headdresses. (That's a typical no-magic maester opinion all right.)

[Carcetti]

It's definitely quite the coincedence that Howland went to visit the Isle of Faces and then went on to befriend the Starks, help Ned keep Jon safe and indeed send his kids to Bran and by extention BR.

Btw, I spend the last few hours finishing TPATQ and reading http://asoiaf.wester...spiracy-part-i/. Great theory there! well thought out and argumented.

[WeaselPie]

An interesting coincedence is that these crannogmen type people settled in an area close to the place where the chilren of the forest destroyed a piece of land (the arm of Dorne), same as the crannogmen with the Neck.

Could it be that they foresaw another invasion that would destroy the balance of the world (Aegon and his sisters) and wanted to try and protect one of the easiest invasion routes?

Idk, this is all speculation. Maybe someday I'll try to write up all my thoughts in a coherent matter and make a proper theory out of it

Exactement.

And I hope you will. Fascinating and well-written, OP.

[WeaselPie]

A very interesting random thought. Nice. How long ago did Nymeria land in Dorne? I can't recall.

700 years ago. The Pact was thousands of years ago. But we know the Arm of Dorne was passable until the CotF blew it up. And we also know many Rhoynish embraced life in Dorne, and influenced their laws and customs.

Maybe they had relatives waiting for them.

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

It's definitely quite the coincedence that Howland went to visit the Isle of Faces and then went on to befriend the Starks, help Ned keep Jon safe and indeed send his kids to Bran and by extention BR.

Btw, I spend the last few hours finishing TPATQ and reading http://asoiaf.wester...spiracy-part-i/. Great theory there! well thought out and argumented.

Yeah, it's very interesting. He also played a role in the events that led to the the knight of the laughing tree entering the tourney. Were it not for that, Rhaeggar and Lyanna might not have hooked up (according to the theory that she was the KoLT and Rhaeggar found her). There is no question that Howland is a major player in the long game (although perhaps indifferent to the silly game of thrones, as he should be). It's going to awesome when GRRM finally lets us meet him.

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

Seriously, if the Ironborn were so careless about the pact why didnt they build Harrenhall ON the Isle of Faces. It makes more sense to have an island fortress in the center of a lake then on the side of it I feel. There must be some Green Men magics over the place. Nobody ever goes there. During the reign of Harren the Black the lake would be teeming w/ longships.

[RumHam]

700 years ago. The Pact was thousands of years ago. But we know the Arm of Dorne was passable until the CotF blew it up.

Where did you get the number seven hundred? Nymeria was apparently alive a thousand years ago to argue against going to war with Volantis.

Edit: I see now it's on the wiki, but I'm not sure where they got it form either.

[The_Crannogman]

Where did you get the number seven hundred? Nymeria was apparently alive a thousand years ago to argue against going to war with Volantis.

Edit: I see now it's on the wiki, but I'm not sure where they got it form either.

According to the wiki doesn't it say she landed about 1000 years ago and 700 years before aegons landing

[RumHam]

According to the wiki doesn't it say she landed about 1000 years ago and 700 years before aegons landing

Yes, it does. My mistake. So it was roughly a thousand years ago from the time of the books.

[Modesty Lannister]

First, I want to thank OP and all the posters for this incredible thread. It's well thought through and the exchange is a breath of fresh air at this forum, which looks like a Recycle Bin since lack of new material is obviously driving everyone nuts.

That being said, I'd like to add couple of points.

1. Some of you mentioned a magical barrier around the Isle of Faces. That would make sense and there is a precedent - the cave where BR and Bran are. Obviously, the Others and Whites cannot enter the cave, so there must be a magical barrier.

2. Order of Green Men reminds me of the 13 Others we've seen on the show. Let me explain. GRRM said that the Others have been misunderstood. I agree with OP's assumption that the Order of Green Men probably aims to preserve the natural balance. CotF drain their power from the earth and command water since they broke the arm of Dorne, separating continents, and flooded the Neck. So, it makes sense to me that the Order of Green Men should be taking care of the Ice side of the scales. That would mean that they actually create or control the Others. I see the Others as creatures who only show up when natural balance is disturbed. At this point, I'd like to remind you that Others emerged during the night that never ends. But, what came first? The night, or the Others? At this point in time, seasons are out of balance. That balance was probably disturbed by Doom of Valyria. So, if the OoGM controls the Others, it would make sense to have a creature like Coldhands riding an elk. I'd like to applaud the posters who thought of the link between the elk and CotF and the one who thought about the destruction of Hardhome as an attempt to maintain the pact between the First Men and CotF.

3. Also, the Rhoynar link is more than interesting. So, if the OoGM is supposed to take care of the ice side of the balance, it makes sense to believe that the Rhoynars and some similar order should be there to take care of fire. And, probably, that's where things went terribly wrong. Hence the Doom. Imho the story of 300 dragons evaporating all water from the Rhoyne can be considered as disturbance of natural balance that triggered the Doom. Or the Doom was Rhoynar revenge, maybe? So, if I draw another parallel, if the OoGM is controlling the Others, there must have been a similar system in the south. Maybe, there were 13 creatures in the south maintaining the balance on the fire side while being controlled by the Rhoynars? My sneaking suspicion would be that Mel is one of these creatures. She is fire made flesh, just like the Others are ice made flesh. Also, Valyrians never attempted to invade Westeros before the Doom, so there must have been a pact there as well. Dragonstone was their watch post. Don't forget that before the conquest, Aegon spent some time in Dorne (consulting with the Rhoynars maybe?) and the Old Town (consulting with Hightowers?). I can only conclude that the OoGM's opposition to dragons in Westeros was an attempt to maintain the original pact and preserve the balance. Maybe, Aegon promised to kill his dragons after the invasion and then changed his mind, I don't know, but dragons were never a part of Westeros before his invasion.

4. Finally, and I don't want this to turn into the ToJ thread either, the observation about 3KGs - Whent, Dayne and Hightower is pure genius. Let me take it further if I may. Ned Stark (in the show, I'm not sure about the books) decapitates a NW deserter within a circle of a stonehenge. In the show, we saw the High Other (or the Night King) turning Craster's son within a circle of an icehenge (I counted 10 ice blocks, an even number). Howland Reed and Ned Stark created 8 cairns out of the stones of the demolished tower, stones that were sprayed by blood. This has always looked too ritualistic to me. It looks like a crainhenge and blood magic are involved. Since, Reed visited the Isle of Faces and knew a lot about the OoGM, I wouldn't be surprised that the event of construction of that henge is highly magical and extremely significant.

I'd like to hear your thoughts. I hope it's not too crackpot.

[WeaselPie]

According to the wiki doesn't it say she landed about 1000 years ago and 700 years before aegons landing

Yea I had numbers in my brain, didn't fact-check before I posted. Still, thousands of years after the Pact.

Sorry.

[WeaselPie]

A few other random thoughts about the Rhoynish.

The Rhoynish brought their own gods to Dorne, though these largely fell from favor. Curious which gods they worshipped, having come from SW Essos between Valyria and the destroyed Arm.

The Isle of Faces, associated with the Green Men, is on the God's Eye Lake, not too far from the Trident (meeting of three rivers - this one might be a stretch but it's not a long travel).

Godswoods, associated with the CotF, specificially Greenseers, are scattered mostly throughout the North with few exceptions, Isle of Faces being one of them.

Godsgrace, seat of House Allyrion, lies at the Junction of Greenblood, Vaith and Scourge Rivers (meeting of three).

The Bastard of Godsgrace, Daemon Sand (a name with Targ/Dorne roots) was/is a lover of Arianne Martell and squire to Oberyn.

Sigil is a golden right hand on red and black. Words are rumored to be No Foe May Pass.

so, just throwing that out to the OP