TheLastStark Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 If Robb Stark had not insulted the Freys by taking another wife, would there still have been a red wedding? The two houses that betrayed him both got something that they would not have gotten otherwise. Bolten became warden of the North and the Freys got Riverrun with all lands and income. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BastardlyRock Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I'm struggling to understand how the two statements that follow your question pertain... are you saying it would have happened regardless?Welcome to the forums! :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light a wight tonight Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 There would not have been the same Red Wedding but Jon would have been killed anyhow. Both the Boltons and the Freys were arguably in Tywin's pocket already or at least had their loyalty compromised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosiemags Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I think it's quite plausible that Houses Frey and/or Bolton would've betrayed Robb, anyway. Certainly not out of character for either of them. They saw the writing on the wall the minute Winterfell was taken and decided to capitalize on the chance. I think the broken betrothal was merely an excuse or, at best, the straw that broke the camel's back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastStark Posted August 5, 2014 Author Share Posted August 5, 2014 Would what the Lannisters offered the Freys and Boltons (the 2 statements after the question) have been enough to make them betray Robb had he not taken another girl to wed instead of a Frey like he agreed to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BastardlyRock Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Would what the Lannisters offered the Freys and Boltons (the 2 statements after the question) have been enough to make them betray Robb had he not taken another girl to wed instead of a Frey like he agreed to. Gotcha -- I would say yes. Both houses strike me as willing to throw their lot with the winning side/whichever side can offer them advancement, regardless of the price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastStark Posted August 5, 2014 Author Share Posted August 5, 2014 There would not have been the same Red Wedding but Jon would have been killed anyhow. Both the Boltons and the Freys were arguably in Tywin's pocket already or at least had their loyalty compromised. I think you mean Robb, and the Boltons most likely would have betrayed in time, but the Freys would of had a queen. Which would have been more valuable to Walder Frey, a queen or Riverrun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BastardlyRock Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I think you mean Robb, and the Boltons most likely would have betrayed in time, but the Freys would of had a queen. Which would have been more valuable to Walder Frey, a queen or Riverrun? If Tywin could convince him that Robb's cause was a lost one (which could've been easy considering Robb was retracing his steps to reclaim WF) then Walder probably would've sided with Tywin anyhow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrion Crow Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 From what I understand, there was really no way for Robb to stop the Frey's from turning on him, it was just a question of time. The Boltons may have stayed loyal had Robb been able to knock the Lannisters out of the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastStark Posted August 5, 2014 Author Share Posted August 5, 2014 If Tywin could convince him that Robb's cause was a lost one (which could've been easy considering Robb was retracing his steps to reclaim WF) then Walder probably would've sided with Tywin anyhow. But up until the Red Wedding Robb had been destroying the Lannisters, lifting the siege on RR, capturing the Kingslayer, and destroying the Lannisters reserve army in their own territory, it wasn't until he lost the Freys with the betrothal(first) and the Karstarks by killing Rickard (think thats his name)(second) that it was going badly for him, plus he never told Edmure to let the Lannisters back across so that Stannis can take KL. Come to think of it, Robb messed up too many times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastStark Posted August 5, 2014 Author Share Posted August 5, 2014 Welcome to the forums! :cheers: And thank you for the welcome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Ayras Lord Commander Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Why would the Freys betray Robb? If he marries a Frey then Frey's now have royal blood. That's more valuable than a castle. Now Roose on the other hand...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastStark Posted August 5, 2014 Author Share Posted August 5, 2014 Why would the Freys betray Robb? If he marries a Frey then Frey's now have royal blood. That's more valuable than a castle. Now Roose on the other hand...... Exactly what I was thinking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosiemags Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 Why would the Freys betray Robb? If he marries a Frey then Frey's now have royal blood. That's more valuable than a castle. Now Roose on the other hand......There are an awful lot of ifs before the Freys have royal blood. Robb has to impregnate Frey wife, heir has to live to adulthood, heir has to outlive Robb, Robb has to maintain his kingdom, etc. I don't think ol' Walder is playing that long of a game. He's only got a few more years and he wants power for himself, not for one of his multitude of descendants, currently unborn and bearing another house's name. No, he wants to be Lord of the Riverlands himself, so he can laugh all the way to his grave over his unexpected defeat of House Tully, which has always looked down on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastStark Posted August 6, 2014 Author Share Posted August 6, 2014 There are an awful lot of ifs before the Freys have royal blood. Robb has to impregnate Frey wife, heir has to live to adulthood, heir has to outlive Robb, Robb has to maintain his kingdom, etc.I don't think ol' Walder is playing that long of a game. He's only got a few more years and he wants power for himself, not for one of his multitude of descendants, currently unborn and bearing another house's name. No, he wants to be Lord of the Riverlands himself, so he can laugh all the way to his grave over his unexpected defeat of House Tully, which has always looked down on him.Yes but he didn't even become Lord of the Riverlands, that title became Littlefingers, all they got was RR and Edmure's seed in a Frey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FittleLinger Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 I think Roose was thinking of betrayal at the moment he heard the Kingslayer was free. After that, he waited untill the outcome of Stannis' attack over KL was clear. After that was clear, there was no question Roose would've turned cloak, which meant Robb was doomed, with or without the Frey's help. So either way, the Freys were lucky Robb dishonoured them, so they could "justify" them being on the winner's side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Ayras Lord Commander Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 There are an awful lot of ifs before the Freys have royal blood. Robb has to impregnate Frey wife, heir has to live to adulthood, heir has to outlive Robb, Robb has to maintain his kingdom, etc.I don't think ol' Walder is playing that long of a game. He's only got a few more years and he wants power for himself, not for one of his multitude of descendants, currently unborn and bearing another house's name. No, he wants to be Lord of the Riverlands himself, so he can laugh all the way to his grave over his unexpected defeat of House Tully, which has always looked down on him. I have to disagree. I think an old man who knows death isn't far away would want to put his family in the best possible position before he goes. Marriages clearly matter to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 I think the Freys would have remained loyal, at least for a while. And Roose as well. At least until the Lannisters come calling, but then they'd be facing a completely hostile Riverlands, with no Freys, Brackens, or Pipers to help them. And all this while Euron reaves the Reach and Aegon lands in the Stormlands In short, I think Robb could have survived simply by holding on for a while longer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
of man and wolf Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 Also would have helped him further if he doesnt execute Karstark. A full northern army probably doesnt go down to the Freys in any kind of battle context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlesW Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 Most likely. Both houses appear to be the type that would place gain before loyalty and familial ties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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