Family, Duty, Honor: The Catelyn Re-read Project

[ShadowCat Rivers]

And how wrong is she really? I mean, I understand how dysfunctional Lannisters as family is, but that doesn't mean they don't stick together faced with alien enemies. I mean, Tyrion didn't find out about Bran's fall in ACOK or ASOS, he knew from his very first POV. Furthermore, not only that he covered the incest and Bran's fall, he actively worked on maintaining Joffrey as the King, fully aware that he is illegitimate. Tyrion was, in many ways, the worst of them, because he was basically blameless for all the crimes of his family but he remained on their side, protecting them and thus being the part of its corpus. So, wrt Tyrion, Catelyn wasn't mistaken that he is with the rest of his family in whatever nefarious thing they have done.

I have to disagree with this. Not to turn this into a Tyrion debate, but I believe it's not fair to say that not giving them out at that point makes him the worst, and later, actively working for his family while knowing they are in the wrong and simultaneously deluding himself that he can do justice is an important part of his internal conflict and character development.

Staying in the covering thing, he did love Jaime. In my country it is illegal to cover a criminal act but the legislator has exempted parents, children, siblings and spouses from being punished for covering crimes of their beloved and even from providing them shelter (even the worst crimes) because it is acknowledged that you just can't put people in such dilemmas.

ETA - On topic, I agree that Catelyn had every reason to believe that the Lannisters would work together. Everyone makes conclusions having in mind their own experiences, unless they know differently. The same is true regarding Lysa: Cat could imagine think that her own sister would work against her.

Given the importance of family as a political unit, it makes even more sense to assume that they'd work together for better or for worse.

[BastardlyRock]

And how wrong is she really? I mean, I understand how dysfunctional Lannisters as family is, but that doesn't mean they don't stick together faced with alien enemies. I mean, Tyrion didn't find out about Bran's fall in ACOK or ASOS, he knew from his very first POV. Furthermore, not only that he covered the incest and Bran's fall, he actively worked on maintaining Joffrey as the King, fully aware that he is illegitimate. Tyrion was, in many ways, the worst of them, because he was basically blameless for all the crimes of his family but he remained on their side, protecting them and thus being the part of its corpus. So, wrt Tyrion, Catelyn wasn't mistaken that he is with the rest of his family in whatever nefarious thing they have done.

I don't want to stray too far from Cat here, but in the case of Tyrion I feel his silence in regards to Jaime/Cersei and his defending KL during the Blackwater were much more guided by self preservation than any overwhelming love for his family. (What was he to do with his knowledge? Confide in the Starks and throw away everything he's ever known and then hope they protected him?) He loves Jaime, Tommen and Myrcella. Not to jump too far ahead, but we know Tyrion's thoughts when it comes to Joff (rejoiced by his death) Tywin (caused his death) and Cersei (would love to see her death) and even, sadly, his complicated feelings for Jaime by the end of ASOS... For the vast majority of the first three books Tyrion does the best with what he can in a pretty crappy situation, knowing that his sister and father (two of the most powerful people in the Seven Kingdoms) are a couple of shits.

Bringing it back around to Cat and her upbringing by way of comparing it to the current head of House Lannister... Tywin's actions are never driven by his love for his children, but instead his love for the family name, whereas in Cat's childhood there was a genuine sense of healthy love for your family members above the family name. That's a large part of what I mean by two different kinds of love in the two families. Cat wasn't wrong to assume that their family name bound Lannisters together, but if she thought they were bound together by the same kind of love that bound her together with her family from a young age she was very mistaken.

[BastardlyRock]

I have to disagree with this. . . actively working for his family while knowing they are in the wrong and simultaneously deluding himself that he can do justice is an important part of his internal conflict and character development.

ETA - On topic, I agree that Catelyn had every reason to believe that the Lannisters would work together. Everyone makes conclusions having in mind their own experiences ...

That's the ticket! Agreed 100%.

[Mladen]

I have to disagree with this. Not to turn this into a Tyrion debate, but I believe it's not fair to say that not giving them out at that point makes him the worst, and later, actively working for his family while knowing they are in the wrong and simultaneously deluding himself that he can do justice is an important part of his internal conflict and character development.

Staying in the covering thing, he did love Jaime. In my country it is illegal to cover a criminal act but the legislator has exempted parents, children, siblings and spouses from being punished for covering crimes of their beloved and even from providing them shelter (even the worst crimes) because it is acknowledged that you just can't put people in such dilemmas.

ETA - On topic, I agree that Catelyn had every reason to believe that the Lannisters would work together. Everyone makes conclusions having in mind their own experiences, unless they know differently. The same is true regarding Lysa: Cat could imagine think that her own sister would work against her.

Given the importance of family as a political unit, it makes even more sense to assume that they'd work together for better or for worse.

First, I completely agree with ETA part.

Now, I didn't mean that Tyrion is the worst in terms of criminal behavior (I mean, the crimes of this family are so deplorable that he can't be put in the same league). But, his loyalty to the family, while at the same time being so despicably shunned at every given occasion is undoubtedly sad, but also makes of him an important piece in Lannister machinery. His smartness and his usefulness to Lannister cause is what makes him "the worst" (although, TBH, I do admit that the choice of words is wrong).

I don't want to stray too far from Cat here, but in the case of Tyrion I feel his silence in regards to Jaime/Cersei and his defending KL during the Blackwater were much more guided by self preservation than any overwhelming love for his family. (What was he to do with his knowledge? Confide in the Starks and throw away everything he's ever known and then hope they protected him?) He loves Jaime, Tommen and Myrcella. Not to jump too far ahead, but we know Tyrion's thoughts when it comes to Joff (rejoiced by his death) Tywin (caused his death) and Cersei (would love to see her death) and even, sadly, his complicated feelings for Jaime by the end of ASOS... For the vast majority of the first three books Tyrion does the best with what he can in a pretty crappy situation, knowing that his sister and father (two of the most powerful people in the Seven Kingdoms) are a couple of shits.

Undoubtedly there was self-preservation, but his love for Jaime has been commented many times. So, I do believe it was a mix of these two, since I doubt we can actually argue about Tyrion's loyalty to Lannister cause.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Like many, my impression of Cat's actions the first time I read this chapter was that she had made a rash, emotional decision to seize Tyrion, and that it was a major mistake. Upon rereading, I frankly haven't changed my mind. I am by no means a Catelyn hater; I usually find her to be quite likable, and usually admirable. In this this episode, however, I don't find her actions to be either wise or justified, based on what she knew and should have known at the time. In hindsight, they are even worse, but there's no need to wait that long to critique her. So I guess I'm seeing a somewhat more emotional, less reasonable Cat than some of the other posters. Here's my case.

This chapter starts with Cat reminiscing - reminiscing about warm rains, reminiscing about making mud pies with Lysa and Petyr, reminiscing about Masha Heddle. Cat is seeking emotional comfort in her past. She's practically wallowing in it. She is not ruthlessly analyzing her current situation and her future actions. She is not going over the information she has been presented to see if it all fits. She's reliving her childhood, and children do not typically make decisions based on sound reasoning. Was feeding LF mud pies a smart thing to do? Was LF choosing to eat mud pies a wise decision? The beginning of the chapter foreshadows the end - we're not going to see a lot of sound reasoning employed today.

LF has told her that Tyrion won the knife from him in a bet. (This is of course a lie, but Cat doesn't know that.) Even if this were true, the fact that the catspaw had the knife in no way, shape, or form implicates Tyrion. LF claims, "The Imp will no doubt swear the blade was lost or stolen while he was at Winterfell, and with his hireling dead, who is there to give him the lie?" Well, wouldn't that be the most likely situation anyway? And yet if Tyrion was involved, Cat must believe that he gave a valuable, distinctive, traceable blade to a piece of scum to kill Bran (who, given his condition, could have been killed with a butter knife. Literally.). Tyrion Lannister does not have the reputation of being a blithering idiot, but he would have to be one in order to make this scenario true. Even without knowing the true story of the knife bet, Cat should be able to detect inconsistencies here.

Catelyn had two weeks while she traveled from King's Landing to the crossroads to work this out. She didn't. She's not thinking. She's shifting into mama wolf mode. Her son has been almost killed in a fall, then almost murdered by a knifeman. Her husband has taken up a post in harm's way. No more analysis needed. She's already decided who the enemy is. She will act if she can. She's been baited into jumping to conclusions, and her ability to reason has been impaired.

Her decision to seize Tyrion was made on the spur of the moment. She had made no previous plans to hunt him down. She had no reason to think she would get anywhere near him. Upon first seeing him, her first reaction was to avoid detection, since her mission to King's Landing was supposed to be covert. Once that was foiled, she jumped at the opportunity to grab him without considering the Westeros-wide implications. What did she think Tywin would do? Or Robert? What was she planning to do with Tyrion? What good would he be as a hostage? Did she think he would suddenly confess? Would holding him force Cersei to confess to killing Jon Arryn? It's underpants gnome reasoning.

1 - Seize Tyrion

2 - ?????

3 - Lannisters defeated.

We should break this down into component parts at this point. Cat must decide (#1) Should I seize Tyrion? If (#1)=yes, she must then decide (#2) How do I successfully seize Tyrion? Catelyn solved the (#2) part just fine, but there's no sign she thoroughly worked through (#1). "It seemed like a good idea at the time," isn't sufficient justification.

Trusting LF and Lysa is itself an emotional act on Catelyn's part. Does Lysa have a history of perceptive, accurate analysis of situations? No, she's always been rather silly. Does LF have a history of loyal service to House Tully? No, he betrayed the man who very generously agreed to foster a boy far lower in station than he usually would. And just how does Cat think LF managed to rise so high, so fast, in the snakepit that is King's Landing? It's one thing to love your family. Trusting them when they don't have a good track record is something entirely different. To trust the information she gets from these two is a mistake Cat didn't have to make. There's a term for a line of deductive reasoning where the logic is sound but the premises aren't. It's called bad reasoning. The result of a line of reasoning is dependent on the accuracy of the premises, and anyone who tries to use reason better know that. Failure to account for the possibility of false premises isn't excusable.

This is, of course, the downside of Family, Duty, Honor. Family comes first, but that can be a weakness at times. Especially when those who you think of as Family decide to use you.

This is not to say I don't understand why Cat did it. I sympathize with her. But she screwed up big time, and should have known better, even with her limited information. The fact that she did makes her a more realistic, human character. In real life, people make mistakes.

PS - I really liked all the stuff about the crossroads symbolism. We'll see the results of Cat's crossroads decision in the next chapter, which should be symbolically significant as well.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

@ Ibbison

I'll try to address various points specifically, but the overall disagreement is about what is/should be known to her. I believe that on re-reads our view might be even more influenced by knowledge that the character did not have at the time, because we have had the opportunity to know better the other characters and their motives.

1. She is not ruthlessly analyzing her current situation and her future actions. She is not going over the information she has been presented to see if it all fits.

I agree, she isn't. But I believe that the reason for this is, that LF has convinced her. Should she be more suspicious? Alas, yes... I agree that she trusts him (partly) for emotional reasons, but it must be said that he presented his lie (not the dagger, the whole 'Lannisters are plotting against your family' story in a really elaborated way (I'm referring to Lysa's letter and its packaging) and the coincidental events (Bran's fall and the attack) corroborate his story, as if LF had made a pact with the devil. After all, the motive she deduced is logical and not far from truth.

More specifically:

2. And yet if Tyrion was involved, Cat must believe that he gave a valuable, distinctive, traceable blade to a piece of scum to kill Bran [...]. Tyrion Lannister does not have the reputation of being a blithering idiot, ...

The assassin was not meant to be caught, but in case he was caught, whoever ordered the assassination had already taken the risk that he would talk. I agree that the knife is one clue more --one risk more-- but as it happened, the actual instigator did take this risk... However, Tyrion as we know him never would. But we should consider: what is Tyrion's reputation at that point in the story?

No more than Lord Tywin's dwarf son and punishment from the gods, I think... Not a regular in Kings Landing, not in any important position either. Some few might know that he's well-read but in general, no one had reason to give much thought to him. Tyrion's star rises after he's sent to KL to act as Hand in his father's place. Varys then is quick to meet him, imporess him and take his measure, and as for LF, he makes the mistake to underestimate him at first. So I don't think that Catelyn had particular reasons to question the knife story based on Tyrion's reputation of intelligence.

(She should have considered the possibility of a setup though, on this I agree.)

3. Does Lysa have a history of perceptive, accurate analysis of situations? No, she's always been rather silly.

Lysa would not necessarily have to analyse and deduce anything, though. Jon Arryn did not die quickly and unexpectedly, he was sick for a few days and she was by his side. One could assume that Jon Arryn could have told his wife of his suspicions. After his death, Lysa practically fled KL (as Robert told Ned) thus reinforcing the idea that she had very serious reasons to be afraid. And again, there's the way her letter to Catelyn was prepared for ultra-secrecy. You just don't dismiss all of those on account of her being not so bright.

4. Does LF have a history of loyal service to House Tully? No, he betrayed the man who very generously agreed to foster a boy far lower in station than he usually would.

As far as Catelyn knows, LF only fault was the duel with Brandon, stupid and improper, yes, but done out of teenage infatuation; not "true" betrayal. She doesn't know anything about him and Lysa, she doesn't even know how he speaks about them both (at first, she does not believe Tyrion when he tells her). Yes, rising high in KL is something to be sucpicious about, but this alone can be mitigated by her emotions for him (emotions do have a role, but I believe it's a secondary one).

5. This is, of course, the downside of Family, Duty, Honor. Family comes first, but that can be a weakness at times. Especially when those who you think of as Family decide to use you.

Sadly, this is very true...

--------

I don't want to repeat myself, but I believe that, going by the (mis)information she has, not acting would be risky too. Either way, acting or not acting, she had to address somehow the problem of being exposed. What do you think she should have done? I suppose, having a nice frank conversation with Tyrion then and there would be optimal, but only because Tyrion is the man we know he is. How prudent would it be to take that risk, under the assumption of 'child killer Tyrion'? (Not saying that what she did was prudent... honestly, trying to put myself in her shoes I have no idea about how I would deal with it.)

Finally, we can certainly agree that the road she chose did not take her to a good place... It was indeed a path to destruction, but I am convinced that this can only be said with the advantage of hindsight.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I don't want to repeat myself, but I believe that, going by the (mis)information she has, not acting would be risky too. Either way, acting or not acting, she had to address somehow the problem of being exposed. What do you think she should have done? I suppose, having a nice frank conversation with Tyrion then and there would be optimal, but only because Tyrion is the man we know he is. How prudent would it be to take that risk, under the assumption of 'child killer Tyrion'? (Not saying that what she did was prudent... honestly, trying to put myself in her shoes I have no idea about how I would deal with it.)

Finally, we can certainly agree that the road she chose did not take her to a good place... It was indeed a path to destruction, but I am convinced that this can only be said with the advantage of hindsight.

I don't think she was in any real immediate physical danger from Tyrion. Tyrion only has one guard and one manservant with him. Ser Rodrik could easily overmatch them. I think not acting would be far less hazardous than acting hastily. Her information sources were quite limited in number. Eddard was investigating in King's Landing. The Stark's best hope was for Eddard to turn something up and take it to Robert. Delay was in the Stark's favor at this point; instead, Cat hastened events by her action. Doing nothing was the far wiser course. And that is based on info Cat had at the time, not on hindsight.

ETA - spelling

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I don't think she was in any real immediate physical danger from Tyrion. Tyrion only has one guard and one manservant with him. Ser Rodriik could easily overmatch them. I think not acting would be far less hazardous than acting hastily. Her information sources were quite limited in number. Eddard was investigating in King's Landing. The Stark's best hope was for Eddard to turn something up and take it to Robert. Delay was in the Stark's favor at this point; instead, Cat hastened events by her action. Doing nothing was the far wiser course. And that is based on info Cat had at the time, not on hindsight.

Sorry, I was not so clear... I was not thinking about physical danger to her person, but rather that Cersei (since Catelyn believed that Tyrion was part of the plot) would be informed that the Starks are up to something, that they are doing some plotting themselves. In that sense, letting Tyrion go would expose Ned's "ignorant" cover... Arresting Tyrion would do the same, but at least they would have him at hand.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I should clarify why I critique Catelyn for trusting Lysa's claim that Cersei poisoned Jon Arryn. (The Lysa accusation is critical. She takes Lysa at her word, and, as a result, after that she is no longer fully objective.)

I would break down the term "trust" into two parts - trusting Lysa's sincerity (is Lysa being honest with Cat), and trusting Lysa's competence (did Lysa reach the correct conclusion).

I fully agree that, without the benefit of hindsight, Catelyn has no reason to distrust Lysa's sincerity. In fact, Lysa is lying to her sister, but Cat has no way to detect that, nor does she have any reason to suspect that.

I do feel that Catelyn should be suspicious of Lysa's competence. We don't know the full text of the coded letter, but as Catelyn never elaborates on the basic accusation of Cersei contained in the letter, it's unlikely that Lysa supplied any supporting evidence for her claim. Ned certainly seems to have doubts. He doesn't fully trust Lysa's accusation until Varys reveals the (partial) truth. Cat takes Lysa at her word, and I find that to be very foolish of Cat. None of her recollections of Lysa show us anything but a rather silly, easily influenced girl.

Catelyn is usually a better judge of character than that, even when family is involved. She loves her brother Edmure, but has no illusions as to his abilities or lack thereof. She doesn't hold Lysa to the same standard. It's almost as if she expects Lysa to be a silly girl. Perhaps it's gender related. Westerosi society doesn't expect young girls to meet the same leadership standards as young men. Catelyn holds herself to the same standards one would expect of an eldest son. She served in that role to Hoster for years. She measures Edmure by that standard, and he fails to meet the test. Lysa gets a pass. But yet she trusts Lysa in perhaps the most critical situation Cat has ever faced. And she pays dearly.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Sorry, I was not so clear... I was not thinking about physical danger to her person, but rather that Cersei (since Catelyn believed that Tyrion was part of the plot) would be informed that the Starks are up to something, that they are doing some plotting themselves. In that sense, letting Tyrion go would expose Ned's "ignorant" cover... Arresting Tyrion would do the same, but at least they would have him at hand.

Ned has already declared to Cat that he is going to try to find the truth of the matter. Once he starts asking questions, his "ignorant" cover is blown anyway. He's bound to attract attention.

As I said above, delay (to give Ned time to investigate) favors the Starks. I should have added the word "temporarily". Ned doesn't have forever. Once he starts asking questions, his time is limited. Still, he needs some time to figure things out. Cat's actions at the inn undermine that plan. (Stannis' decision to sulk on Dragonstone instead of confiding in Ned doesn't help either.)

[LordStoneheart]

snip about Lysa

The thing is, Cat doesn't necessarily believe Lysa so much as she gives credence to the thought because of the care she took in delivering the letter. She tells Ned to go to King's Landing to find out the truth of the matter. And honestly, from her memories and what we know of Lysa from Cat's POV I just plain disagree that there is no reason for Cat to trust her sister, especially when considering the manner in which the letter was delivered. It all comes back to that. It was a very smart move on LF's and Lysa's account because it did give Lysa credibility.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

The thing is, Cat doesn't necessarily believe Lysa so much as she gives credence to the thought because of the care she took in delivering the letter. She tells Ned to go to King's Landing to find out the truth of the matter. And honestly, from her memories and what we know of Lysa from Cat's POV I just plain disagree that there is no reason for Cat to trust her sister, especially when considering the manner in which the letter was delivered. It all comes back to that. It was a very smart move on LF's and Lysa's account because it did give Lysa credibility.

I personally would not jump on an offer to sell me the Brooklyn Bridge just because it arrived by Next Day Air. :cool4:

If Catelyn let that influence her, I think she deserves to take some criticism.

You're correct in saying that Catelyn assumed that Lysa took a great risk in sending the message. But was there really a great risk involved? As long as the carrier had a plausible excuse for carrying a Myrish Lens to Winterfell, there was no real risk involved. The message was well hidden. The actual risk was that Maester Luwin wouldn't find the message. If the message was found, it couldn't be decoded. As long as the delivery arrangements involved enough middlemen, it would be impossible to trace the origin. (That would be a specialty of LF, of course.) You've just spotted another miscalculation by Catelyn. She let the packaging and the delivery method deceive her regarding the contents. And the contents are what counts.

[BastardlyRock]

Tyrion IV: Squabbles and Shadowcats

"Damn her" he muttered as he struggled up the road to rejoin his captors, remembering, "damn her and all the Starks."

Overview

Cat and her ragtag group of heroes travel with a captive Tyrion Lannister whom at first believes to be headed for Winterfell before discovering that in one of Cat's most savvy ploys he is in fact being taken to the Eyrie and her sister Lysa. En route they squabble about everything from Tywin's honor to Catelyn's maidenhood and are ultimately attacked by clans in the Mountains of the Moon.

Tyrion's Bitter Memory

If Tyrion's memory of the events at the Inn is to be trusted, Cat made it abundantly clear what she thought of the Lannisters following Tyrion's plea that she was making a mistake --

"I had no part in any attack on your son. On my honor-"

"Lannister honor," was all she said.

Her response brokered no conversation, and from Tyrion's recollection those who criticize Cat's actions at the Inn only find fodder for their arguments. The fact that we know both from 1) Tyrion's POV and 2) hindsight that Cat is making a mistake at the Inn makes it all the easier to be critical and see her as foolish when Tyrion remembers how she held her hands up to show the room her cuts. Two things to keep in mind here, one being that we are in Tyrion's mind for this memory, and so we are embittered and purposefully swayed momentarily to see the events through his eyes. The second is something that Tyrion himself ponders, and that's the unspoken effectiveness of Cat's actions to win over the Inn simply by the fact that she is a woman who (whether purposefully or not) played the part of a victimized woman by (and this part is even lesser spoken but still seems clear to Tyrion) a cruel and grotesque dwarf. That's the deeper mechanism in action, the more simple understanding is that Cat called on her father's banners against a house they have no love for:

Oh, the Stark woman had been clever, no doubt of it. Force them to make a public affirmation of the oaths sworn her father by the lords they served, and then call on them for succor, and her a woman yes, that was sweet.

This quote illustrates both the tangible and the underlying emotional tug Cat had employed at the Inn. While I have no proof of it, I have to believe that Cat knew of the second, more subtle tug as well, clever as she is. That's not to say that Cat relies on the fact that she's a woman so that men will provide/protect her (quite the opposite, in fact) but I think it shows that she's fully aware of her position in the world and knows exactly how to best utilize that to meet her goals.

I can't leave the Inn without laying down one of my all time favorite Tyrion quips:

Scarlet-tinged spittle flew from the fat inkeep's mouth as she begged of Catelyn Stark, "Don't kill him here!" "Don't kill him anywhere," Tyrion urged.

Cat's moves following the events at the Inn (again trusting Tyrion's recollections) go a long way to show how calm and collected Cat was at the time. The decision may have been made spur of the moment, but she didn't allow this to affect her sensibilities in the slightest. If anything it helped set her into full She-Wolf swing:

Catelyn Stark wasted no time. "We must ride at once. We'll want fresh mounts, and provisions for the road."

[BastardlyRock]

Tyrion IV: Squabbles and Shadowcats Part II

En route to the Eyrie

Much has already been made of Cat's brilliance in throwing any attempt to follow them up the Kingsroad to Winterfell that I feel I have little to add here. There's (to me) no question it's one of her finest moments:

"The eastern road. You said we were riding for Winterfell!"

Catelyn Stark favored him with the faintest of smiles. "Often and loudly," she agreed.

Brilliance.

Tyrion makes it clear that Cat drives the group hard and long. We have plenty insight into Tyrion's own aches and pains during the journey, as well as the hedge knight Ser Willis Wode and Ser Rodrick advising Cat they rest if for nothing more than the sake of the horses. Cat is as cautious of being caught off guard as she is determined. She allows Tyrion to speak (a dangerous move in and of itself) and they soon find themselves in some interesting dialogue...

"I am small, and not strong, and if I die, then what's the point?" ... "It might be said that your death is the point, Lannister," Catelyn Stark replied.

Tyrion quickly points out that she would have had him killed already if that were the case, when Cat quips that "Starks do not murder men in their beds." And they go back and forth for a bit. I'm brought back to what some of the posters were discussing earlier (myself included) wondering exactly what Cat's intentions were at this point, if it was not to give him a trial. It's been too long since my first read through and I can't remember as a first time reader what I thought her purpose was for him, but given the dialogue provided I would assume a trial of sorts was on Cat's mind. She wants him dead, but it would appear that she wants him confirmed guilty beyond reasonable doubt first. As I said earlier, allowing Tyrion to speak is always dangerous, and that's no more evident than here. After making the same point that many Cat-criticizers make - "Only a fool would arm a common footpad with his own blade" - we have this:

Just for a moment, he thought he saw a flicker of doubt in her eyes, but what she said was, "Why would Petyr lie to me?"

Before we get to exactly why Petyr would lie to her, I've long entertained the notion that Cat had already begun to realize she incorrectly identified Tyrion as the culprit here in the Mountains of the Moon. She seems to slowly let go of her suspicions, and given that Tyrion arrives at the Eyrie armed and unchained, I feel somewhere deep down Cat knew she was just playing out her mistake. (By "mistake" I preclude the notion that letting him go at the Inn could have held its own different set of dangers down the road.) Not, I will mention, that the Lannisters aren't to blame, just that Tyrion's part in it is quickly becoming questionable to her.

So, back to Petyr:

"Why does a bear shit in the woods?" [Tyrion] demanded. "Because it is his nature."

Cat seems genuinely shocked to hear of LF's true nature here from Tyrion, which helps to corroborate the sentiment that her trusting him was (although naive) understandable from an emotional perspective at the time. Fault her if you may, that seems to be about the extent of it, which is really no different than faulting Ned for his honor. Both seemingly positive traits which arguably led to their demises. But let me reel it back in...

Here's Cat's quote which really makes me feel Petyr loved her once.

"Petyr Baelish loved me once. He was only a boy. His passion was a tragedy for all of us, but it was real, and pure, and nothing to be made mock of. He wanted my hand. That is the truth of the matter. You are truly an evil man Lannister."

"And you are truly a fool, Lady Stark. Littlefinger has never loved anyone but Littlefinger."

So the question is: Who do you believe? My answer? I believe both. I believe Cat knew that LF would have done anything for her, but she's speaking of the LF she used to know. Likewise, Tyrion is speaking of the LF he currently knows, and never knew a LF with a capacity to love another individual. And yes, the experiences of his youth helped shape him into the LF he became.

As the conversation progresses back to the dagger, of course, Tyrion's explanation of the events concerning the tourney in question is interrupted by riders! Did I need further proof that Cat has been in full She-Wold mode since her Catnapping? Fine, here it is:

Catelyn Stark was the first to react.

Of the battle much could be said of Tyrion, alas, this is not a Tyrion re-read ;) Cat decides (wisely) to arm Tyrion for the battle. Tyrion resists his urge to Let them have the bitch. And ends up coming through for Cat, helping take down her would-be attackers, but of course Cat is no damsel in distress and opens one's throat herself. Of course Cat would prefer to bury the dead, which isn't because she's emotional or a woman but because it's the honorable thing to do. She prudently decides to let Tyrion keep the axe, but not without commenting:

"I trust you no more than I did before."

But I can't help but feel she's just trying to convince herself.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Really nice analysis, theBastardofCasterlyRock!

The chapter provides a look at Catelyn from the POV of an "enemy", which gives an extra credibility to the admirable attributes he observes in her: smarts, determination, collectedness in critical situations, leadership skills. I don't have much to add on this part, as theBastardofCasterlyRock did a very good and complete job in highlighting them.

This is a very dense chapter; there's a lot of character fleshing out for both POVs, a lot of world building info and ample symbolism as well.

Earlier, Ibbison from Ibben noted that the High road follows up the crossroads symbolism; this was an excellent observation indeed.

The High road is narrow and stony on a harsh and wild land with shadowcats and clans lurking for an attack. The inadequacy of her escort is made obvious early on, as well as its doubious loyalty. The toll to pass the road is high in blood and compromises in honour (the unburied dead) and once the destination is reached one can only regret for paying the price, as we will see in the next chapter. This could sum up quite accurately the whole of Catelyn's journey from the Crossroads to the bitter end.

The mountain clans cared nothing for the enmities of the great houses; they would slaughter Stark and Lannister with equal fervor

This is another thing that strikes me as important in terms of symbolism. Cat and Tyrion --Stark and Lannister-- are quarreling at a time when an imminent danger awaits both of them and the whole group without exception. Finally they have to put their enmity aside -be it temporarily- in order to face the common foe, highlighted by Tyrion and Cat saving each other's life, and this is what gets them through. Given that the mountain clans are "otherized" by the rest of the realm, I wonder if this is an author's commentary on the state of the realms of men at the time the Others are ante portas and on the path they must take in order to survive.

Catelyn's flaws

Both real flaws and positive qualities turned into flaws are presented in this chapter; that's the special value of seeing POVs through the eyes of another.

Catelyn is presented, quite accurately, as prejudiced here:

“You’re making a sad mistake, Lady Stark. I had no part in any attack on your son. On my honor-”

“Lannister honor,” was all she said. She held up her hands for all the room to see. “His dagger left these scars. The blade he sent to open my son’s throat.”

Tyrion is reduced to "Lannister". Lannisters do not have a good reputation, Jaime's kingslaying and Tywin's sack of KL and subsequent treatment of Elia and her children have secured this negative view. None of it was Tyrion's responsibility but regardless, his honour is questioned on the basis of being a Lannister.

On the one hand, the family's function as a political unit and the fact that an individual's fate is firmly tied to his/her family provides the basis for making this sort of thinking somewhat true, like a self-fulfilling prophecy. But on the other hand it cultivates erroneous analyses of reality, misunderstandings and unjustices and reinforces the aforementioned "truth", creating a vicious circle.

On the upside, Catelyn is open-minded enough to listen to Tyrion's side of the story and consider the possibility that he might be right. I really appreciate her insistence on "Let him speak" twice and the fact that she acknowledges his arguments as worthy of consideration.

Furthermore, when Tyrion (justifiably) calls her out for appealing to his honour while she had it dismissed earlier, she holds to acting out of necessity instead of reacting out of spite:

“My word?” The hoofbeats were louder now. Tyrion grinned crookedly. “Oh, that you have, my lady... on my honor as a Lannister.”

For a moment he thought she would spit at him, but instead she snapped, “Arm them,” and as quick as that she was pulling away.

Her sense of honour, a positive quality, can also lead to wrong and destructive decisions in certain circumstances like the one at hand.

“We must bury our dead, Ser Willis,” she said. “These were brave men. I will not leave them to the crows and shadowcats.”

Leaving the dead unburied is a serious offence, especially when those men died in her service. Her incentive is noble and righteous but in doing so would certainly cause more deaths. If she was to be obeyed uncontested it would lead to a disaster, no matter how good her intentions were.

Duty and honour dictates to tend to the dead but it clashes to the more urgent duty towards the living. The former made her blind to see the latter and again, it's a very positive trait that she listens to different opinions and acknowledges when they are in the right. However, what if voices of objection were not raised? How would (will) this flaw impact her decision making when she is alone in thinking them through?

Strong points

In addition to what theBastardofCasterlyRock has already pointed out, a special mention is deserved to her willingness to listen, give some credit to and accept when necessary, hard and unpleasent truths. Her conversation with Tyrion, her decision to arm him and his men and listening to sound advice even when it utterly disturbs her, attest to this admirable quality of Catelyn and pose a sharp contrast to her sister's character, as we are going to see in the next chapter.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Catelyn pulls off a very neat deception by heading east instead of north, but was it necessary? If she chooses the northern road, she's home free once she makes it to the Causeway. Was she worried that, once word got out and ravens had a chance to fly, Tywin might be able to bring pressure on Walder Frey to cut her off before she reached the Neck? (Or that Frey would act independently and detain her?) I don't see any other way she could be stopped. Or did she execute the deception for its own sake, without evaluating the end results? (You would think that, given the chance, she would prefer to head to Winterfell.)

Are we seeing a pattern emerge - Catelyn is an excellent tactical thinker, but a weak strategic thinker? I'm not sure I can really buy that as a general description of Cat, given her later advice to Robb, but in these last two chapters it might very well apply.

Choosing the High Road can be looked at in a couple of ways.

1) Taking the High Road is a metaphor for choosing a morally superior course of action. It's something you would expect a Stark to do. But Catelyn's seizure of Tyrion is of dubious legality, and she's fleeing with him like someone who fears being caught by the authorities. It's a bit ironic.

2) The results of her choice foreshadow the future course of events. The small scale bloody conflicts on the High Road (which are a direct result of her decision) will be duplicated on a much larger scale throughout all of Westeros.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Catelyn pulls off a very neat deception by heading east instead of north, but was it necessary? If she chooses the northern road, she's home free once she makes it to the Causeway. Was she worried that, once word got out and ravens had a chance to fly, Tywin might be able to bring pressure on Walder Frey to cut her off before she reached the Neck? (Or that Frey would act independently and detain her?) I don't see any other way she could be stopped. Or did she execute the deception for its own sake, without evaluating the end results? (You would think that, given the chance, she would prefer to head to Winterfell.)

Are we seeing a pattern emerge - Catelyn is an excellent tactical thinker, but a weak strategic thinker? I'm not sure I can really buy that as a general description of Cat, given her later advice to Robb, but in these last two chapters it might very well apply.

Choosing the High Road can be looked at in a couple of ways.

1) Taking the High Road is a metaphor for choosing a morally superior course of action. It's something you would expect a Stark to do. But Catelyn's seizure of Tyrion is of dubious legality, and she's fleeing with him like someone who fears being caught by the authorities. It's a bit ironic.

2) The results of her choice foreshadow the future course of events. The small scale bloody conflicts on the High Road (which are a direct result of her decision) will be duplicated on a much larger scale throughout all of Westeros.

Freys are a certainly a concern. But not the only one.

Both Catelyn and Tyrion happen to see the road to Winterfell as one that raises the odds in favor of Tyrion. Specifically, Tyrion thinks:

The Freys would report back to their lord, and the gods only knew what he might do. Lord Walder Frey might be sworn to Riverrun, but he was a cautious man who had lived a long time by making certain he was always on the winning side. At the very least he would send his birds winging south to King’s Landing, and he might well dare more than that.

...

Yet even as they were bundling him outside, saddling the horses in the rain, and tying his hands with a length of coarse rope, Tyrion Lannister was not truly afraid. They would never get him to Winterfell, he would have given odds on that. Riders would be after them within the day, birds would take wing, and surely one of the river lords would want to curry favor with his father enough to take a hand. Tyrion was congratulating himself on his subtlety when someone pulled a hood down over his eyes and lifted him up onto a saddle.

So either they are both right or they are both wrong. I tend to believe that in this case, they know what they are talking about; neither Cat fears are unfounded nor Tyrion's hopes are delusional.

On the High road symbolism, I think it's mainly about the second although there is talk of honour and morality issues between the two along the way.

However, I don't see the metaphore of fleeing from authorities as very apt. She is, in fact, fleeing, but from Tywin's wrath... In many ways, it's the general absence of reliable authorities that facilitate / instigate this and many other of the actions that function as triggers to the upcoming war.

Having said that, I need to clarify that I don't see the Catnapping as a reason of the war in any way; this would be like saying that the assassination of archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria was the reason for WW I and had it not happened the war could have been prevented, which is completely wrong.

It is one of the events that act as catalysts for the war to start sooner rather than later, but the Wot5K was inevitable IMO. The big actors had already set the stage.

edited for syntax

[LordStoneheart]

Ibb, aside from what ShadowCat has touched on above, I believe it was a good choice in that she went there to get any evidence that Lysa had against the Lannisters. But as we know way later, it was a bad idea, though surely Cat didn't know this. I think you've spoken earlier about how Cat should not have trusted Lysa, and I still disagree on that. I think Cat had no reason to doubt her and good reason to believe. It is definitely in hindsight a mistake but during the decision in real time, I still stand by that Catelyn had no just cause to suspect Lysa was working against her whole family and the realm to begin with. So based on what Cat did know about Lysa, the Arryns/Vale, and the Freys (what her and Tyrion both know) going to the Vale was a good decision, or at least would have been had Lysa not been the tortured soul she became...

[Tywin Manderly]

"We are taking him back to Winterfell," she said, and Tyrion thought, Well, perhaps . . . By then he'd had a moment to glance over the room and get a better idea of the situation. He was not altogether displeased by what he saw.

When he saw the narrow stony road, the foothills rising high and wild all around them, and the jagged snowcapped peaks on the distant horizon, all the hope went out of him in a rush. "This is the high road," he gasped, looking at Lady Stark with accusation. "The eastern road. You said we were riding for Winterfell!"

Catelyn Stark favored him with the faintest of smiles. "Often and loudly," she agreed. "No doubt your friends will ride that way when they come after us. I wish them good speed."

Illusion is the ultimate weapon.

Cat outwitted the whole realm by choosing the High Road to the Vale. Had she chosen the River Road to Riverrun or the Kingsroad to Winterfell, as virtually everyone expected, then she for sure would have been ambushed, either by Lannister men or by opportunists looking for a pot of Lannister gold.

Taking Tyrion to the Vale was a sound decision based on her knowledge, getting him beyond the reach of the Lannisters, where she could in all safety contemplate and subsequently take the necessary steps.

Catelyn, of course, could not know that Lysa had become a Littlefinger-manipulated idiot beyond imagination who was working against the realm as well her own interests and those of her family, including her son.

[BearQueen87]

Tyrion IV: Squabbles and Shadowcats

Tyrion IV: Squabbles and Shadowcats Part II

Very nice job theBastardofCasterlyRock!!

Tyrion's Bitter Memory

If Tyrion's memory of the events at the Inn is to be trusted, Cat made it abundantly clear what she thought of the Lannisters following Tyrion's plea that she was making a mistake --

This is one of those (many) instances where we see how clever a writer GRRM is. You almost expect that the next part of the Cat/Tyrion saga will be from Cat's POV so we can be in her head once more as Tyrion tries to plead innocence at the Inn, and then willingly goes along with Lady Stark. What must be racing through Cat's head? Does she ponder Tyrion's acceptance of his fate in her hands? If we take Tyrion's recollection of the events are truth, when he recalls: "If Lady Stark believes I have some crime to answer for, I will go with her and answer for it." Does Cat think she's "got him;" does she question if she's right or wrong in the move she just made? Instead we get what BastardofCR calls Tyrion's bitter memory, and I agree with BastardofCR that this lends sympathy to Tyrion because WE know that he's innocent.

I believe Tyrion and Cat are more of an equal match than some (no one here) gives Cat credit for. Tyrion is always singled out as one of the most clever POV's in ASOIAF but he acknowledges that Cat is just as shrewd and we talked at length last chapter(s) about Cat and her thinking abilities:

He was not altogether displeased by what he saw. Oh, the Stark woman had been clever, no doubt of it. Force them to make a public affirmation of the oaths sworn her father by the lords they served, and then call on them for succor, and her a woman, yes, that was sweet.

This quote illustrates both the tangible and the underlying emotional tug Cat had employed at the Inn. While I have no proof of it, I have to believe that Cat knew of the second, more subtle tug as well, clever as she is. That's not to say that Cat relies on the fact that she's a woman so that men will provide/protect her (quite the opposite, in fact) but I think it shows that she's fully aware of her position in the world and knows exactly how to best utilize that to meet her goals.

I actually think there is a small proof that Cat knew she could use both being a woman AND being a Tully in her plan. In the previous chapter, when she is discovered, Masha Heddle calls her "Lady....Stark?" But Cat rises from her bench and says, "I was still Catelyn Tully the last time I bedded here." She's reminding the room that she is a Tully, the family of the Riverlands. She's also helping everyone recall that, despite her name change, she's the eldest daughter of Hoster Tully. She didn't have to remind anyone that she was once Cat Tully (something everyone would know) and she could have just gone with Lady Stark as Masha calls her, but she doesn't. She reinforces what the knights and sell swords in the Inn know.

can't leave the Inn without laying down one of my all time favorite Tyrion quips:

:cheers: I do love that one.

Much has already been made of Cat's brilliance in throwing any attempt to follow them up the Kingsroad to Winterfell that I feel I have little to add here. There's (to me) no question it's one of her finest moments:

Tyrion is my favorite character in the series but every time I read aGoT, I laugh so hard at:

The eastern road? You said we were riding for Winterfell?

Catelyn Stark favored him with a faintest of smiles. "Often and loudly," she agreed.

[snip]

Even now, long days later, the memory filled him with a bitter rage. All his life Tyrion had prided himself on his cunning, the only gift the gods had seen fit to give him, and yet this seven-times-damned she-wolf Catelyn Stark had outwitted him at every turn. The knowledge was more galling than the bare fact of his abduction.

Clever clever Cat. Tyrion didn't even think of this as a possibility back at the Inn. He acknowledges that Cat is clever but he doesn't think that she's as clever as he is. He underestimates her, perhaps because she's a woman, perhaps because he's a Lannister and there's a fair amount of ego attached to their family. The former, that Cat is a woman, is a running theme throughout all of ASOIAF, under estimating women and then having them do something that we'd associate as "manly" (if that makes sense): Arya's swordplay, Dany taking cities and leading a khalsaar, Cat outwitting Tyrion, Brienne the Knight, ect.

Tyrion quickly points out that she would have had him killed already if that were the case, when Cat quips that "Starks do not murder men in their beds." And they go back and forth for a bit. I'm brought back to what some of the posters were discussing earlier (myself included) wondering exactly what Cat's intentions were at this point, if it was not to give him a trial. It's been too long since my first read through and I can't remember as a first time reader what I thought her purpose was for him, but given the dialogue provided I would assume a trial of sorts was on Cat's mind.

I love Cat and Tyrion's whole exchange, you can image that it was rapid fire back and forth. Again, they're equally matched in retorts.

I do also wonder what Cat's plan--the middle portion of it anyway--was. I believe Ibbison of Ibben, reacting to the earlier Catnapping chapter, pointed this out but what does come between taking Tyrion and Lannister defeat? Take Tyrion to the Eyrie to get whatever evidence Lysa has and then....? March him to KL? Send word to Ned and King Robert asking for the King's Justice?

Before we get to exactly why Petyr would lie to her, I've long entertained the notion that Cat had already begun to realize she incorrectly identified Tyrion as the culprit here in the Mountains of the Moon. She seems to slowly let go of her suspicions, and given that Tyrion arrives at the Eyrie armed and unchained, I feel somewhere deep down Cat knew she was just playing out her mistake. (By "mistake" I preclude the notion that letting him go at the Inn could have held its own different set of dangers down the road.) Not, I will mention, that the Lannisters aren't to blame, just that Tyrion's part in it is quickly becoming questionable to her.

To me, the flicker of doubt is a good thing. It's one thing to be sold stand by your convictions, but it's another to refuse to give up your opinions when faced with some evidence to the contrary. Tyrion is making sense here and Cat recognizes that. She's not stubbornly refusing to give Tyrion leave to speak, in fact she commands that he be allowed to speak even though the others traveling with Cat and Tyrion would silence him. We see another shadow of doubt just before the riders approach as well, "a line creased her brow."

Cat seems genuinely shocked to hear of LF's true nature here from Tyrion, which helps to corroborate the sentiment that her trusting him was (although naive) understandable from an emotional perspective at the time. Fault her if you may, that seems to be about the extent of it, which is really no different than faulting Ned for his honor. Both seemingly positive traits which arguably led to their demises. But let me reel it back in...

Here's Cat's quote which really makes me feel Petyr loved her once.

Lifttlefinger, Littlefinger, Littlefinger, He's good. He's very good at what he does.

As for BastardofCR's question concerning LF and his love for Cat....I tend to think that Petyr loved Cat but it was coupled with his desire for power and wealth, not just her.

Also: +10 for Gotye video. :cool4:

But I can't help but feel she's just trying to convince herself.

I agree. The seeds of doubt have been planted and they're continue to grow once the events of the Eyrie begin to happen.