Family, Duty, Honor: The Catelyn Re-read Project

[LordStoneheart]

Sorry, sorry, sorry. College classes... :stillsick:

I am keeping up with the posts though, and great job, Bastardly.

I love that we get a view of Cat as the opposition in the form of Tyrion, and from the character widely held by many to be extremely smart outsmarted by her at every turn. :D

I remember my first time reading these two chapters not knowing what to think besides that I still supported Cat and that I did not trust Tyrion at all. I remember how much of a badass feeling it was when Tyrion admitted that Cat had played it all rather well.

What I love about Cat VI now is how introspective and conflicted Catelyn is. I've seen it claimed that she's not remorseful for her actions, whether against Jon Snow or the Catnapping, but this chapter basically proves that claim completely groundless. I don't remember many other characters regretting and rethinking their actions (though I'm sure other examples exist).

[BastardlyRock]

This chapter is very atmospheric with some very beautiful and imposing descriptions of scenery. The Vale all of a sudden opens up to the view of the newcomer giving the impression of a fairy land and then there's the Eyrie... the ascend as well as the castle itself is dreamlike and spooky in the same time. Its inhabitants, in a strange way, fit nicely all this eerie fairytale scenery as they are ...well, appropriately weird. More trollish than fairy-like, though.

Fantastic description! I wanted to say so much more about the scenery in this chapter. I've always loved these descriptive paragraphs of the Vale, not only for their ability to transport the reader to what you aptly pointed out as an almost magical, kind of twisted take on a fairytale land, but for the magical beauty of the prose as well (which, in all honesty, is what enables us to travel there in the first place).

It's also a wonderful setting for Cat to find herself in at this point in the story, one wherein nothing can be taken at face value, and there's most definitely more lurking beneath the surface that nobody can quite pick up on...

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Fantastic description! I wanted to say so much more about the scenery in this chapter. I've always loved these descriptive paragraphs of the Vale, not only for their ability to transport the reader to what you aptly pointed out as an almost magical, kind of twisted take on a fairytale land, but for the magical beauty of the prose as well (which, in all honesty, is what enables us to travel there in the first place).

It's also a wonderful setting for Cat to find herself in at this point in the story, one wherein nothing can be taken at face value, and there's most definitely more lurking beneath the surface that nobody can quite pick up on...

Thank you!

Some chapters are wonderfully written, really take you there with all your senses...

The bolded part is also true and very well put. The Vale is in the center of so many secrets...

[Bran17]

I'm just posting to say that Catelyn is a wonderful character.

She's awesome, probably my favourite POV character. Fuck the haters!!!! :P

[Tywin Manderly]

I'm just posting to say that Catelyn is a wonderful character.

She's awesome, probably my favourite POV character. Fuck the haters!!!! :P

:cheers:

[MoseStark*]

I just wanted to say that I'm following this topic with great interest. Cat is one of the most interesting characters in ASOIAF and she is one of the most hated characters as well. I've read the books just one time, so I don't think my insights in Cat are really interesting, as I missed quite a lot of things on my first read and want to reread the story as a whole first, before rereading various characters. However, I love reading all your thoughts about Cat and I really love to see how the discussion unfolds at some points. I'll keep reading!

This was actually everything I wanted to say... Keep up the good work! :bowdown:

[BastardlyRock]

Thanks MoseStark*!

[Tywin Manderly]

I just wanted to say that I'm following this topic with great interest. Cat is one of the most interesting characters in ASOIAF and she is one of the most hated characters as well. I've read the books just one time, so I don't think my insights in Cat are really interesting, as I missed quite a lot of things on my first read and want to reread the story as a whole first, before rereading various characters. However, I love reading all your thoughts about Cat and I really love to see how the discussion unfolds at some points. I'll keep reading!

This was actually everything I wanted to say... Keep up the good work! :bowdown:

Seconds. :cheers:

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

<snip>

In retrospective, Lysa is a really tragic figure. But I think she is often very underestimated, both in-story and in how we readers view her. She gives the impression of a crazy and not so bright, overly afraid and weak lady. All of which are true... but hidden underneath, also exist some --quite impressive, actually, but in a bad way-- character traits that make her really dangerous: Lysa is very willful in her desires and her illusions, extremely persistent to push for what she wants to the point of becoming criminal. She is totally ruthless as well: Tyrion might lead to exposing her culpability, so she decides that Tyrion has to die. And, while not smart, she possesses a low cunning and is capable to deceive smart people: nobody would suspect the "feeble widow" for the murder of Jon Arryn; her potential to crime is just not seen. In the re-read, knowing the full story, we can see the great ease that she lies and the way she can put on quite a show playing the loving sister in front of her Maester and captain of guard, changing to cold and snappy when she and Catelyn are left alone.

Sweetrobin is the victim of the situation... the boy suffers from some serious condition (some unknown, fictional autoimmune disorder I'd suppose) and children like this, unfortunatelly, have to grow up and mature really quickly in order to cope up with their situation... but on the contrary, little Robert is treated like a baby and what's worse, his mother transfers her fears and hysterical moods onto him when the boy needs emotional stability and rationalization. Characteristically in this chapter, Sweetrobin is doing just fine until his mother shouts to Cat “You’re scaring the boy”. Only then Sweetrobin gets frightened and begins to tremble...

In the next chapter, Mord will complete the image of the Eyrie's "Addams family" :).

Much more to say, but too little time now...

I agree wrt Lysa. Her patheticness and weakness of character conceal someone who is very dangerous (often despite herself!). She can lie effortlessly (ironically, something she has in common with Littlefinger!), and she does have a low cunning.

I also agree that what makes her so very dangerous is that she is willful, tenacious, and ruthless when it comes to getting what she wants. Those are not necessarily bad qualities in themselves, but with Lysa, all her will and tenacity are directed towards selfish ends. Lysa is utterly and totally selfish, and cares for nothing beyond what is good for herself, and her son, who she regards as an extension of herself.

Cat is also willful, tenacious, and can be ruthless - BUT she is not selfish. These qualities are mobilized on behalf of her family. And, unlike Lysa, she has a strong moral compass. And she is by far the better mother - even thoughI don't think she or Ned prepared Sansa in particular for the wide world which she would inhabit as the wife to a prince or Lord Paramount/heir. (I agree with the poster who noted that Cat was likely very aware that Sansa was on the shortlist for betrothal to the Crown Prince - realistically, it was either her or Margaery Tyrell from the beginning. And since Sansa was the daughter of King Robert's best friend, and the Starks were an older and more prestigious family than the Tyrells - no whispers of "upjumped stewards" here - Sansa definitely had the inside track. I think Sansa's upbringing was directed to producing a perfect queen consort.)

But Cat's failure to rein in Sansa's naivete is not such a big deal. On the whole, the Stark children were very well brought up. Poor Sweetrobin, on the other hand - smh. :rolleyes: I don't think his illness would have been half as bad if he had good food, fresh air, kids his own age to play with, and Mommy Dearest not breathing down his neck all the time! How Lysa treats Sweetrobin is all kinds of weird and creepy. :ack: He's definitely NOT getting the upbringing a future Lord Paramount should have. No wonder even King Bob is concerned.

To return to Catelyn - I noticed that Tyrion calls her a "she-wolf" in his interior monologue. It is clear he associates her with the Starks and not the Tully family. (Is "she-trout" even a word?) Catelyn gets the wolf association like the rest of the Stark family.

[Two and a Halfhand]

I still think the Tullys are the most underrated family in all the series,the characters get so much hate and injustice.As you guys said,Cat is smart,cunning and dearing,but when people talk about her the only thing in their mind seems to be:"screw this bitch,he hates Jon and now she's an evil zombie".

Same with Edmure:"A true lord,who cares about the people that was being devastated by the savages grunts of Tywin Lannister but also gets so much hate for failing Robb in the war.

I really think only the Blackfish is treated the way it should in the trout family

[aje12]

I still think the Tullys are the most underrated family in all the series,the characters get so much hate and injustice.As you guys said,Cat is smart,cunning and dearing,but when people talk about her the only thing in their mind seems to be:"screw this bitch,he hates Jon and now she's an evil zombie".

Same with Edmure:"A true lord,who cares about the people that was being devastated by the savages grunts of Tywin Lannister but also gets so much hate for failing Robb in the war.

I really think only the Blackfish is treated the way it should in the trout family

Yes! I would even go further and say that Hoster was the best politician in westeros and the realm would be better off if he were king, and that Lysa gets no where near the sympathy I think she should.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The fact that Mya leads Catelyn while she has the eyes closed is very subtle. Because Cat is practically blind at the key to the enigma and she has it in front of her. Heh.

[BastardlyRock]

The fact that Mya leads Catelyn while she has the eyes closed is very subtle. Because Cat is practically blind at the key to the enigma and she has it in front of her. Heh.

I like it. In fact I thought that Cat's eyes being closed was almost certainly symbolic for a lot of reasons--I'd started to write a paragraph about it before backtracking, wondering if I really wanted to go down that road...

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

The fact that Mya leads Catelyn while she has the eyes closed is very subtle. Because Cat is practically blind at the key to the enigma and she has it in front of her. Heh.

That's a great observation!

Some of us in the P2P threads were discussing the fact that Sansa crossed the same stone saddle with her eyes open. It will be interesting to see what happens with that.

But poor Catelyn couldn't possibly have known the extent of Lysa's perfidy; and given her own adherence to "Family, Duty, Honor" I don't know if she would have been able to take it all in.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Sorry for neglecting the thread, but I've been too busy lately. Just stealing a few moments for some very delayed responses...

I agree wrt Lysa. Her patheticness and weakness of character conceal someone who is very dangerous (often despite herself!). She can lie effortlessly (ironically, something she has in common with Littlefinger!), and she does have a low cunning.

I also agree that what makes her so very dangerous is that she is willful, tenacious, and ruthless when it comes to getting what she wants. Those are not necessarily bad qualities in themselves, but with Lysa, all her will and tenacity are directed towards selfish ends. Lysa is utterly and totally selfish, and cares for nothing beyond what is good for herself, and her son, who she regards as an extension of herself.

Cat is also willful, tenacious, and can be ruthless - BUT she is not selfish. These qualities are mobilized on behalf of her family. And, unlike Lysa, she has a strong moral compass.

I agree, Lysa's worst quality that drives everything else, is her egocentrism. It's also true in her "love" affair with Littlefinger - his feelings never mattered at all, the only thing of importance was her feelings and her desire.

I also agree that the "peripheral" qualities that make her dangerous are not bad qualities per se, it's all about what use she puts them into. I think that Sansa also displays some of Lysa's characteristics, i.e. she seems to be talented in lying and her "feminine" behaviour conceal a willful personality BUT Sansa is sane and a basically moral person, which Lysa isn't.

The fact that Mya leads Catelyn while she has the eyes closed is very subtle. Because Cat is practically blind at the key to the enigma and she has it in front of her. Heh.

That's a very nice interpretation...

I was thinking a lot about this scene, mostly in terms of trust / distrust. Symbolically, Catelyn is obliged to place blind trust in Mya, a girl she doesn't even know, and Mya does not fail her trust in contrast to the (grudging? maybe not, but certainly not blind...) trust she shows to old time friends and family -LF and Lysa-and they betray her. I don't know what to make of this, though...

[Julia H.]

I was thinking a lot about this scene, mostly in terms of trust / distrust. Symbolically, Catelyn is obliged to place blind trust in Mya, a girl she doesn't even know, and Mya does not fail her trust in contrast to the (grudging? maybe not, but certainly not blind...) trust she shows to old time friends and family -LF and Lysa-and they betray her. I don't know what to make of this, though...

It is certainly ironic, especially in terms of Catelyn's family (and personal) motto. One cannot sum up all the wisdom of the world in a few words, and automatically acting along the same lines all the time may become dangerious. LF and Lysa use Catelyn's family-oriented nature to their advantage.

Catelyn had nothing against this girl, but suddenly she could not help but thinking of Ned's bastard on the Wall, and the thought made her angry and guilty, both at once.

The bastard girl does not betray her, and while she is constantly afraid that a bastard boy may want to harm her own children, she never even dreams that her own beloved sister could one day try to kill her daughter. If Catelyn were still alive where we are in the story now, we might suggest that the fact that in this chapter she has to place blind trust in a bastard, who does not betray her, sounds like foreshadowing. :ohwell:

Anyway, "angry and guilty" is likely to be how she has felt about Jon all these years.

[Kyoshi]

I'm so behind. But I just wanted to say everyone is doing a great job so far! :cheers: :thumbsup:

[LordStoneheart]

Update:

The combining of chapters seems to have thrown off the schedule, hence the lull over the past few weeks. We should be back to it soon with Catelyn VII.

Thanks for stopping by.

[Tywin Manderly]

Great!! :)

[LordStoneheart]

Chapter 38, Tyrion V:

Summary:
Tyrion spends a miserable time in a skycell and hatches a scheme to get out of his predicament. Under the guise of confessing his ‘crimes’ he obtains an audience with Lysa and calls out her treatment of him and her version of justice. He successfully vies for a trial by combat. Ser Vardis Egen is chosen as Lysa’s champion. The sellsword Bronn decides to stand in for Tyrion.

(Note: this chapter is great and Tyrion is more than worthy of his own reread but being that this is a Catelyn project, I’ll be focusing on her as much as possible.)

Observations:
-The rage in his thoughts about Catelyn seems to be gone.
-Bloody flux reference… or perhaps ironic foreshadowing? Also, a great insult from Tyrion.
Tyrion felt a pang of rage. "You fucking son of a pox-ridden ass," he spat. "I hope you die of a bloody flux."

-The Arryns are the only family with this type of imprisonment.
-Tyrion has a mixed opinion on his siblings’ intelligence
Tyrion Lannister sighed. His sister was not without a certain low cunning, but her pride blinded her. She would see the insult in this, not the opportunity. And Jaime was even worse, rash and headstrong and quick to anger. His brother never untied a knot when he could slash it in two with his sword.

I think I would say that this is spot on to what their reactions are.

Analysis:
The Skycells
These things are truly horrifying. It’s basically a torture chamber. One line in particular is rather chilling to me:

Gods save me, some previous tenant had written on the wall in something that looked suspiciously like blood, the blue is calling. At first Tyrion wondered who he'd been, and what had become of him; later, he decided that he would rather not know.

It’s noted that this type of imprisonment is unique to the Arryns. I think it’s quite interesting that the house with the words “As High As Honor” and their connection to the Andals has this kind of prison. Maybe this is unintentional, but perhaps one of many examples of “honor” being a grey area.

Catelyn’s Limited Presence:
As with Tyrion IV, this is a chapter where we only see Catelyn through another’s eyes. But unlike his previous chapter, this one is not filled with bitterness against her and I’m not quite sure what to make of it.
It could just be that his focus of rage is directed to Mord, Lysa, and Sweetrobin. But perhaps there is a small easing of the vitriol towards Catelyn because of her actions in this chapter. She is the only voice of reason here.

Young Robert pointed down, his hand trembling. "You're a liar. Mother, I want to see him fly." Two guardsmen in sky-blue cloaks seized Tyrion by the arms, lifting him off his floor.
The gods only know what might have happened then were it not for Catelyn Stark. "Sister," she called out from where she stood below the thrones, "I beg you to remember, this man is my prisoner. I will not have him harmed."

One interesting quote from the chapter has Tyrion thinking about Catelyn’s honor:

He's listening! Tyrion thought. "They relieved me of my purse when they captured me, but the gold is still mine. Catelyn Stark might take a man prisoner, but she'd never stoop to rob him. That wouldn't be honorable.

It’s not exactly praise, but I do think it shows a lot about her reputation. The implication might be that Tyrion doesn’t think his arrest was dishonorable per se.

Catelyn Stark took a step forward. "You are accused of sending a hired knife to slay my son Bran in his bed, and of conspiring to murder Lord Jon Arryn, the Hand of the King."

One thing I’d like to point out is that Catelyn originally arrested him because of the first charge here, but now includes the second in the accusations. She did come to the Eyrie hoping to find evidence of Lysa’s claim that the Lannisters killing Jon Arryn. I don’t think Cat ever believed the second charge though.

Her small mouth twitched in a petulant smile. "If you are tried and found to be guilty of the crimes for which you stand accused, then by the king's own laws, you must pay with your life's blood. We keep no headsman in the Eyrie, my lord of Lannister. Open the Moon Door."
…
"Behold the king's justice," Lysa Arryn said. Torch flames fluttered like pennons along the walls, and here and there the odd torch guttered out.
"Lysa, I think this unwise," Catelyn Stark said as the black wind swirled around the hall.

Catelyn’s final part in this chapter also shows that she is not at all in agreement with the events in the Eyrie.