Family, Duty, Honor: The Catelyn Re-read Project

[BearQueen87]

Chapter 38, Tyrion V:

1) Glad to see this is back!

2) Nice job Lord Stoneheart!

The Skycells

These things are truly horrifying. It’s basically a torture chamber. One line in particular is rather chilling to me:

As someone who is terrified of heights, these things are pretty much my worse nightmare. Not only are you in an open "cell" and could roll out to your death at any moment but the turnkey, Mord, is abusive and denies the prisoners food and in Tyrion's case took the cloak he had that would have kept the cold at bay.

As with Tyrion IV, this is a chapter where we only see Catelyn through another’s eyes. But unlike his previous chapter, this one is not filled with bitterness against her and I’m not quite sure what to make of it.

It could just be that his focus of rage is directed to Mord, Lysa, and Sweetrobin. But perhaps there is a small easing of the vitriol towards Catelyn because of her actions in this chapter. She is the only voice of reason here.

I agree with the assessment that Tyrion's anger has turned toward the residents of the Eyrie instead of Cat.

I think it's worth noting that Cat is more perceptive than Lysa when Tyrion is brought before them. Lysa has donned her best mourning clothing but an outfit that as also highlights her status as Lady Arryn. Lysa is proud and tells Cat that "the sky cells always break them. The gods can see them there, and there is no darkness to hide in." Lysa thinks she has won over Tyrion and she's called all her knights and retainers to hear his confession. Cat, on the other, is decidedly more cautious: "He does not look broken to me."

It's also interesting that Cat's silence becomes more profound and noticeable once Tyrion demands a trial and then one by combat. Because this is Tyrion's POV we obviously don't know what is going on in Cat's head, but she remains totally silent during it. Lysa becomes increasingly more frustrated every time Tyrion points out justice, honor, his brother Jaime, and when Ser Vardis doesn't want to be her champion. I can imagine that Cat is becoming equally flustered, but not at Tyrion...rather at Lysa.

[SeanF]

Why does Lysa act as she does? Initially, she's dismayed that Catelyn arrested Tyrion and brought him to the Eyrie. But, instead of freeing him, or telling Catelyn to go elsewhere, she inflames matters by putting Tyrion into a sky cell, and offering him a farcical trial before Sweetrobin.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I don't think there's any Earth Logic (or Westeros Logic) to why Lysa acts the way she does. She's never been the brightest bulb in the Tully family chandelier, and by now she seems to be quite unhinged. (I also surmise that she doesn't want Catelyn doing any investigating and finding out the truth about Jon Arryn's death.)

I see Catelyn's silence as her "uh oh!" moment when it starts to sink in that Lysa is not playing by the same "Family, Duty, Honor" rules that Cat does - nor is Lysa even playing with a full deck.

[Cat of the Rivers]

Well, at this point Lysa was incredibly paranoid and most of her actions aren't logical or well reasoned out. Maybe she just focused on Tyrion himself and not the Lannisters as whole and thought that if she eliminates the current problem (Tyrion) then everything will be fine. But Lysa lacks in foresight as she wasn't able to surmise that sending Tyrion to the High Road and probably having him killed would bring Tywin's wrath on the Eyrie. Also she probably disliked Tyrion to a certain extent and as Lysa operates on her emotions at whim (and puts people in dangerous situations because of her emotional nature) she probably put him in a Sky Cell and wanted to kill him even more because of her dislike.

Catelyn was in for quite the shock wasn't she?

[LordStoneheart]

Why does Lysa act as she does? Initially, she's dismayed that Catelyn arrested Tyrion and brought him to the Eyrie. But, instead of freeing him, or telling Catelyn to go elsewhere, she inflames matters by putting Tyrion into a sky cell, and offering him a farcical trial before Sweetrobin.

Other than being rather unstable, I think she was still working with Petyr's interests at this point. She was doing what she could to inflame the tensions between the others while staying comfortable in her impregnable castle.

[Julia H.]

Catelyn’s Limited Presence:

As with Tyrion IV, this is a chapter where we only see Catelyn through another’s eyes. But unlike his previous chapter, this one is not filled with bitterness against her and I’m not quite sure what to make of it.

It could just be that his focus of rage is directed to Mord, Lysa, and Sweetrobin. But perhaps there is a small easing of the vitriol towards Catelyn because of her actions in this chapter. She is the only voice of reason here.

One interesting quote from the chapter has Tyrion thinking about Catelyn’s honor:

It’s not exactly praise, but I do think it shows a lot about her reputation. The implication might be that Tyrion doesn’t think his arrest was dishonorable per se.

One thing I’d like to point out is that Catelyn originally arrested him because of the first charge here, but now includes the second in the accusations. She did come to the Eyrie hoping to find evidence of Lysa’s claim that the Lannisters killing Jon Arryn. I don’t think Cat ever believed the second charge though.

Catelyn’s final part in this chapter also shows that she is not at all in agreement with the events in the Eyrie.

It makes me wish the journey to the Eyrie had lasted longer. We have seen Catelyn beginning to doubt whether she had captured the right man. We have seen Tyrion rescue Catelyn and now perhaps he is beginning to see that the real enemy is somewhere else. It seems Catelyn and Tyrion are learning to respect each other, and this is one of those things that give me the impression that they might have had a chance to change the course of events if they had travelled together longer, perhaps if they had not met Lysa. Yet, there is also a sense of doom in these chapters, which suggests that the conflict has reached a point where reason does not come into it any longer, and it is too late to stop what has started.

I had the same feeling after analysing the scene between Catelyn and Jon. It seemed that for a moment there was a chance for them to understand each other and to see each other in a different way - but the moment passed and nothing changed for the better.

[BastardlyRock]

Great work yet again LordStoneheart! :cheers:

The quote you highlighted pertaining to Jaime and Cersei was very true of them at the time. Cersei perhaps shows no change between AGoT through ADWD in regards to how she would react, while Jaime, for obvious reasons, would be forced to consider the whole situation through an entirely different lens. I get the vibe that by the end of AFFC Jaime is the sort that would see the opportunity in a situation like the one Tyrion found himself in here. Tyrion, ironically, that far along in the story seems to have less desire and ambition to see the opportunity than even Jaime did in the beginning of AGoT; their arcs seemed to have passed one another at some point... but I'm getting way ahead of myself and not even focusing on Cat, so I digress. :D

I agree Tyrion seems to have let his hate for Cat pass at this point, perhaps because he empathizes to some degree with her plight. I genuinely feel that Tyrion feels for Bran (cripples, bastards and broken things and all) and a lot of that residual may very well have crossed into his view of Cat, especially after she showed her smarts in the trickery that led them to the Vale. For Tyrion, valuing intelligence as he does, this act alone gave him some respect for Cat, no matter how begrudgingly. I love this:

It makes me wish the journey to the Eyrie had lasted longer. We have seen Catelyn beginning to doubt whether she had captured the right man. We have seen Tyrion rescue Catelyn and now perhaps he is beginning to see that the real enemy is somewhere else. It seems Catelyn and Tyrion are learning to respect each other, and this is one of those things that give me the impression that they might have had a chance to change the course of events if they had travelled together longer, perhaps if they had not met Lysa. Yet, there is also a sense of doom in these chapters, which suggests that the conflict has reached a point where reason does not come into it any longer, and it is too late to stop what has started.

I had the same feeling after analysing the scene between Catelyn and Jon. It seemed that for a moment there was a chance for them to understand each other and to see each other in a different way - but the moment passed and nothing changed for the better.

This idea is just fantastic. Dare I say I almost wish we had alternate realities to read? Seeing how things would have transpired differently with one small change made would be highly interesting (if not borderline fanfic... :leaving: ), but especially if that small change related to keeping these two together longer. Once they came to understand each other they really would have made a dynamic duo, and one that may have managed to hold the realm together... maybe. ;)

[LordStoneheart]

AGOT, Chapter 40: Catelyn VII – Alyssa’s Tears

Summary
Catelyn awakens on the day of Tyrion’s Trial by Combat and hears troubling news from Edmure about Riverrun. Blackfish resigns from his post as Knight of the Gate in order to help his nephew in the Riverlands. Cat promises him help from Winterfell. At the trial, Catelyn tries to get Lysa to stop the trial but she won’t relent. A lightly-armored Bronn tires out Ser Vardis by leaping away and making the heavily-armored knight chase him. After toppling the statue of Alyssa Arryn on top of Vardis, Bronn kills Vardis and wins Tyrion’s freedom. Lysa sets Tyrion free on the dangerous high road of the Vale.

Observations

-In the events of Tyrion V, Catelyn had urged Lysa to meet with Tyrion privately instead of putting him in public eye. The trial was something she never wanted and disapproves of.
-Catelyn is again associated with water
-Because of a letter from Edmure and not Hoster, Catelyn assumes correctly that her father isn’t keeping up well.
-Blackfish resigns from his post in response to Lysa’s follies. Similar to Eddard resigning as Hand?
-Lysa is wearing sapphires and moonstones during her flirtatious banter with the lords. Not sure about moonstones, but some work has been done on the significance of sapphires and secrets. Lysa has no plans to marry any of them and knows that Tyrion is not guilty, and what we later find out at the end of Storm casts an interesting light on this.
- About the trial, she gets dismissed as knowing little because she’s a women, yet she observes the fight well and only she considers the possibility that Ser Vardis could lose.

“Is it over, Mother?” the Lord of the Eyrie asked.
No, Catelyn wanted to tell him, it is only the beginning.

Analysis

This chapter is right between Eddard and Jon’s chapters. All three show the characters struggling with their authority in their situations. Eddard struggles with Robert and Cersei. Jon struggles with Aliser Thorne and to a lesser and more successful extent, Maester Aemon.

I think there’s a good parallel between Robert and Lysa here. Both are quick to anger, bad at leading, and easily manipulated. In Eddard’s chapter he questions Robert’s notion of justice, and Tyrion does the same to Lysa in his. Their treatments of Eddard and Catelyn come across as very unfair and unreasonable.

Something else I thought was a bit interesting is that Catelyn and Jon have an ally of sorts in their situations. Jon with his friends and Maester Aemon, and Catelyn with her uncle Blackfish. But Ned has none there who he can rely on other than his own northern men he brought with him.

Alyssa and Catelyn’s Tears

Catelyn’s association with water pops up right in the beginning with her watching the waters of Alyssa’s Tears fall down into the mountains, only the turn into mist and never reach the bottom.

Pale white mists rose off Alyssa’s Tears, where the ghost waters plunged over the shoulder of the mountain to begin their long tumble down the face of the Giant’s Lance. Catelyn could feel the faint touch of spray on her face.

The story of Alyssa Arryn is sad and I find it strange and fascinating that it’s associated with Catelyn.

Alyssa Arryn had seen her husband, her brothers, and all her children slain, and yet in life she had never shed a tear. So in death, the gods had decreed that she would know no rest until her weeping watered the black earth of the Vale, where the men she had loved were buried. Alyssa had been dead six thousand years now, and still no drop of the torrent had ever reached the valley floor far below

So why is it that Alyssa did not mourn for her family? Was she a tough-as-nails Lady of the Vale who wasn’t that emotional when it came to these things? Did she despise or loathe her family? Or was she in a state of shock/catatonia? Many possibilities, very few explanations. The World of Ice and Fire has scant information here other than confirming that there indeed was an Alyssa Arryn.

As Catelyn watches Alyssa’s Tears, she thinks this:

Catelyn wondered how large a waterfall her own tears would make when she died.

Quite interesting that Catelyn associates her tears with a woman who has a symbolic perpetual state of mourning.

I don’t know where I saw this or who wrote it, so apologies for not giving proper credit.

There is another association with Alyssa’s Tears and death. It seems to have a hidden meaning for Lysa and her involvement with Jon Arryn. We know that Jon died from the Tears of Lys. In the Vale there’s Alyssa’s Tears. Lysa’s Tears. I think this is quite the clue that Martin gave early on.

Troubling News and the Blackfish
Catelyn hears from Rodrik that there was a letter from Edmure about the current state. The Kingslayer is gathering forces in the west and Edmure is preparing the Riverlands. She is upset that Lysa withheld this news from her. She assumes correctly that Edmure is taking charge because Hoster is not well enough to do so.
Blackfish is also very displeased with Lysa and has given up his title Knight of the Gate to help Riverrun. Eddard had done the same thing before in response to Robert’s assassination plans.

At the doors to Lysa’s apartments, they met her uncle storming out. “Going to join the fool’s festival?” Ser Brynden snapped. “I’d tell you to slap some sense into your sister, if I thought it would do any good, but you’d only bruise your hand.”

The Fight
Catelyn unsuccessfully tries to get Lysa to stop the trial

“Lysa, you cannot mean to go ahead with this folly. Alive, the Imp has value. Dead, he is only food for crows. And if his champion should prevail here-”

Cat is quickly rebuffed by one of Lysa’s Lords who doesn't seem to consider the possibility that Bronn could win.

“Will he, my lord?” Catelyn said coolly. “I wonder.” She had seen Bronn fight on the high road; it was no accident that he had survived the journey while other men had died. He moved like a panther, and that ugly sword of his seemed a part of his arm.

An interesting parallel to Sansa comes up in the next instance when Ser Waynwood implies that Catelyn is a woman and therefore inferior in judging fighting.

“Say you have the truth of it, then,” Catelyn said with a courtesy that made her mouth ache. “What will we gain by the dwarf’s death? Do you imagine that Jaime will care a fig that we gave his brother a trial before we flung him off a mountain?”

A Lady’s courtesy is her armor, the saying goes, and in the Vale where is finding herself powerless she keeps up her courtesy even though she heavily disproves of the actions going on.

The fight begins just as Catelyn might have found out the truth about who would foster Sweetrobin. Catelyn notes right away that Bronn looks more deadly, being younger, taller, and without armor, faster. She holds her tongue when she thinks that Ser Vardis would be better suited with his own blade, not wanting to engage with Lysa anymore. The fight is more deadly than what Catelyn was used to growing up.

She had seen men practice at their swordplay near every day of her life, had viewed half a hundred tourneys in her time, but this was something different and deadlier: a dance where the smallest misstep meant death.

It ends with the statue of Alyssa Arryn being pushed onto Vardis and breaking. Bronn stabs Vardis with no struggle.


A Memory

During the fight, Catelyn is reminded of the duel between Brandon and Petyr. Here we see Catelyn’s sense of duty instilled in her even at a young age.

Petyr had begged her for a favor he might wear, but she had turned him away. Her lord father promised her to Brandon Stark, and so it was to him that she gave her token, a pale blue handscarf she had embroidered with the leaping trout of Riverrun

It comes back to her vividly and all at once, and near the end she thinks that she had forgotten it. I wonder if it was something that she did not want to remember because of the results. After the duel, Cat could not visit him, he broke ties with Edmure for being Brandon’s squire, and he left Riverrun for good.

"Sweet Sister"

Throughout the chapter, we see a bigger rift being driven between Catelyn and Lysa, more so than her last chapter. Now, Lysa appears to be taking direct action against Cat by withholding information, ignoring her about the trial, and refusing to let their uncle take men to the riverlands. Catelyn is angry and disappointed that the sister she grew up has changed so drastically.

The shy girl she had known at Riverrun had grown into a woman who was by turns proud, fearful, cruel, dreamy, reckless, timid, stubborn, vain, and, above all, inconstant.

Catelyn almost wished she had burned her sister’s letter before reading it.

During the course of rereading this chapter, I stumbled upon a very farfetched idea/theory. Right before the fight, Lysa calls Catelyn “sweet sister.” Last year, there was some work done by Newstar and many others on the nature of sweetness in ASOIAF as a negative. The tears of Lys are also called sweet, at one point. Here’s the full exchange.

When Lysa espied Catelyn, she welcomed her with a sisterly embrace and a moist kiss on the cheek. “Isn’t it a lovely morning? The gods are smiling on us. Do try a cup of the wine, sweet sister. Lord Hunter was kind enough to send for it, from his own cellars.”

Interesting… I definitely think it would be a bit crackpot to claim that Lysa was trying to poison Cat here. But let’s roll with that and put the few pieces together. We know Lysa has an access/supplier of tears of Lys. She used them on Jon Arryn. As she offers Cat wine she calls her ‘sweet sister,’ which echoes a theme of negativity other posters on here have found. And in Storm, Lord Hunter, whose wine Lysa offers, dies suddenly and his sons accuse each other of murder.

It’s still a bit too crazy for me to consider seriously, and I don’t know what narrative purpose it would serve for GRRM to include this easter egg. But I definitely wouldn’t put it past Lysa to do so.

[BearQueen87]

AGOT, Chapter 40: Catelyn VII – Alyssa’s Tears

Really nice job Lord Stoneheart!

I think there’s a good parallel between Robert and Lysa here. Both are quick to anger, bad at leading, and easily manipulated. In Eddard’s chapter he questions Robert’s notion of justice, and Tyrion does the same to Lysa in his. Their treatments of Eddard and Catelyn come across as very unfair and unreasonable.

Very interesting. I would also say that there are some Cersei parallels going on here. Cat thinks that her sister has become "a woman who was by turns, proud, fearful, cruel, dreamy, reckless, timid, stubborn, vain and above all inconsistent." While I'm not sure I would call Cersei timid, per se, but the rest...yeah, that's Cersei. Add into this Lysa's need for a show: this is the second time we've seen her in full "Eyrie regalia" complete with jewels that signal her station and the Arryn family colors. Cersei often wears just as ornate jewels in ruby or emerald colors--house Lannister in red, and the green of her eyes and her temperament as jealous.

So why is it that Alyssa did not mourn for her family? Was she a tough-as-nails Lady of the Vale who wasn’t that emotional when it came to these things? Did she despise or loathe her family? Or was she in a state of shock/catatonia? Many possibilities, very few explanations. The World of Ice and Fire has scant information here other than confirming that there indeed was an Alyssa Arryn.

Yeah I wish we had an explanation for this. But I tend to think that it's the final option--catatonia or shock. Not to jump too far ahead, but since Cat and Alyssa are paralled together, when Cat loses Ned and then believes that she lost Bran/Rickon, she won't let anyone see her cry. She won't cry front of Jaime, for example, and I think that's what is going on here with Alyssa. Sometimes you simply can't let it out because it hurts too much.

During the course of rereading this chapter, I stumbled upon a very farfetched idea/theory. Right before the fight, Lysa calls Catelyn “sweet sister.” Last year, there was some work done by Newstar and many others on the nature of sweetness in ASOIAF as a negative. The tears of Lys are also called sweet, at one point. Here’s the full exchange.

Speaking of siblings and their nicknames....Viserys calls Dany "sweet sister" and it is less affectionate than it is cringe inducing. It's almost (ok, not almost) a threat when Viserys does it to Dany and I take it as such here as well. It's a power play. The way Lysa really wants Cat to try the wine--I don't know if it's poisoned or not, but I do think that Lysa is reveling in having more power than Cat at the moment. She's taken Cat's prisoner, she's the Lady of the Vale and has more knights than Cat does at present, she's dressed "to the nines" in a display of power, when it's clear that Vardis is hurt Lysa still thinks she can command the man not to die, and she even thinks she can command the Blackfish (no one commands the Blackfish!!)

Stray Notes

1. I find it interesting that no godswood could be planted in the Eyrie. Cat's first chapter finds her in the godswood looking for Ned, and even though she finds it a strange place, it's her husband's home and she knows he'll be there. But here, any linkage to Ned and the North and Winterfell can't be planted. Cat is cut off from the North and Ned and, on her Tully side, Lysa isn't the girl Cat once knew. Even amongst family, Cat has become a stranger in a strange land, as it were.

2. Blackfish calls this a festival and he's right: cream and fruit, wine in ornate goblets, a special sword for Ser Vadis. Lysa has set everything up as if it were a spectacular show, a folly for her guests. Lysa likes to think of herself as puppet master or maybe ring leader. She goes through these ceremonies, like a special sword that Jon Arryn would have worn to defend his honor but doesn't think that Ser Vardis might want his own damn sword. Cat, on the other hand, has no such pretensions and DOES think about Ser Vardis wanting his own weapon. Thinking, a common theme we keep coming back on when it comes to Cat.

[BastardlyRock]

Truly nice work LS! Very comprehensive.

The two most interesting ideas broached here (admittedly things we've seen discussed on the forums before, as you pointed out) sapphires and secrets, and the word sweet never being associated with sweet things. I applaud you for picking up on both in this chapter! :cheers:

As we noted in earlier Vale chapters, secrets are certainly abound, so many, in fact, I feel we still have more to learn in the future. But as for the present, the Tears of Lys connection is certainly ample info. I'm also a huge fan of your 'poison the cat' theory. The implications are vast, and because Lysa couldn't have counted on Cat coming to the Vale it would have been more a spur of the moment, on the fly choice, rather than a calculated decision. I wouldn't put it past the George to implicate such a move, however. There's more I'd like to say, but I'll need to get to my books first in order to do so. I've also been swamped with classes lately, and work, and kids, and oh goodness gracious the list goes on....

I find it interesting that no godswood could be planted in the Eyrie. Cat's first chapter finds her in the godswood looking for Ned, and even though she finds it a strange place, it's her husband's home and she knows he'll be there. But here, any linkage to Ned and the North and Winterfell can't be planted. Cat is cut off from the North and Ned and, on her Tully side, Lysa isn't the girl Cat once knew. Even amongst family, Cat has become a stranger in a strange land, as it were.

This is a really interesting point BearQueen, and it brought something else to my mind as well. Given Eddard's fostering here you'd think that maybe Cat hoped to see something of her husband in the Eyrie. I have to think that if Cat's visit had been sooner, (much, much sooner) perhaps even back before Jon Arryn left, she would have felt some of that honor that was so instilled in Ned. But with the real Arryns all but gone, and Lysa running the place... yikes.

That gets me to thinking about what really makes a place that place, if that makes any sense. Winterfell circa ADWD is certainly not the same as Winterfell circa AGOT. I think that same vibe has really set in with the Vale as well. Thankfully we have WOIAF to get a feel for what the Eyrie was like pre-nutcase.

Thinking, a common theme we keep coming back on when it comes to Cat.

just because it's quoteworthy ;)

[RainGhost]

I'd just like to say that I love this thread. It's good to know there are some other Catelyn fans out there and I think you guys have done a brilliant job of analysing Cat's character and highlighting her many good qualities.

I also find the association with Alyssa's Tears fascinating. Although we don't know much about Alyssa Arryn, the parallels are there with Catelyn. I know I'm not supposed to jump too far ahead but I think it's relevant when discussing Alyssa's Tears. When Catelyn starts losing family members, she makes herself stay strong and not collapse in grief and tears. When she thinks her last child has died, instead of dissolving into tears, she breaks, like the statue of Alyssa Arryn at the end of the chapter. Even in death the gods don't let her rest, like Alyssa. Could this perhaps explain Alyssa Arryn's lack of tears? Did she try too hard to be strong and then she just broke? We have no way of knowing but it's a possibility. It's interesting that Cat somehow makes a link here though; perhaps after Edmure's letter she fears that she may soon be in the same situation and wonders how she would handle it, particularly after seeing what Lysa's turned into.

Anyway, keep up the good work :cheers:

[SeanF]

It's a part of Catelyn's empathy towards the Smallfolk that she can judge Bronn dispassionately, as a fine swordsman, whereas everyone else thinks it inconceivable that a sellsword can defeat a knight.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Great job Lord Stoneheart, and thanks for keeping things up!

On the suggestion that Lysa might have attempted to poison Cat, I believe that the poison was rather symbolic, not litteral. She did poison Cat, with the infamous letter of hers, pitting Starks against Lannisters. In this instance, there is no way we can ever know whether Lysa made an attempt or no, nor can it play any role anymore as both sisters are dead... It seems to me that simply, Lysa once again plays the nice, loving sister when they are in public view.

The Eyrie in this chapter is quite a mummery, full of fools :)

The elderly lord and the paedophile playing suitors to Lysa and Lysa playing with them all, Sweetrobin playing with his dolls and everyone playing at justice...

There is something rotten, the feeling of deep decay, all those people eating fruit and drinking wine while waiting for the big pleasure of the day that is, to watch someone die.

There is vast underrating of life itself, let alone the "crude sellsword". In a sense, for this alone they "deserved" to lose even if Tyrion was guiltier than guilty.

Catelyn sees different. This is a "see with your eyes" situation and Catelyn proves to be good at it, adding yet another similarity with Arya. On the contrary, Lysa and her knights --them even more, Lysa at least has the excuse of her problematic mental state-- are perfect examples of what Sandor described of lords and knights: arrogant and ignorant, unable to see past titles and empty honors.

Catelyn (as well as the Blackfish) clearly does not feel comfortable among them. She sees them for what they are and it's not easy to hide her feelings of resentment for the sake of courtesy. Courtesy that she keeps because she must, as is part of a lady's duty, but that "makes her mouth ache". She has to consciously try hard to keep her courtesies, so I think that for Cat the "courtesy armor" has the same effect as Ser Vardis' steel armor: it's more tiring than protective. Cat is not a "natural" in courtesies and "ladylike attitude" like Sansa is. It's just not Cat's "weapon of choice".

I also find the association with Alyssa's Tears fascinating. Although we don't know much about Alyssa Arryn, the parallels are there with Catelyn. I know I'm not supposed to jump too far ahead but I think it's relevant when discussing Alyssa's Tears. When Catelyn starts losing family members, she makes herself stay strong and not collapse in grief and tears. When she thinks her last child has died, instead of dissolving into tears, she breaks, like the statue of Alyssa Arryn at the end of the chapter. Even in death the gods don't let her rest, like Alyssa. Could this perhaps explain Alyssa Arryn's lack of tears? Did she try too hard to be strong and then she just broke? We have no way of knowing but it's a possibility. It's interesting that Cat somehow makes a link here though; perhaps after Edmure's letter she fears that she may soon be in the same situation and wonders how she would handle it, particularly after seeing what Lysa's turned into.

I agree, Alyssa's tears is the most fascinating part of the chapter. Due to this association here, I have always imagined that Alyssa lost her loved ones, one after the other like Cat did, and she had to stay strong to fight for the living, until there was none anymore...

Alyssa's story has been a foreshadowing for Catelyn's arc - to the bitter end and then some, litteraly.

It is indeed very interesting that Catelyn herself (and rather unprompted) makes the association with Alysa.

Alyssa's myth brings to mind the classical myth of Niobe - Niobe's "sin" was pride, I wonder what sin (she thinks?) the gods are punishing Catelyn so harsh for...

[LordStoneheart]

Great thoughts, ShadowCat.

It's funny how that Lady's Armor line usually comes up when talking about Sansa and not as much for Arya. What comes to mind in that regard is Arya's first chapter when she takes leave of Myrcella in a sarcastic way. I'll have to search around for more examples for the Lady in Arya's personality. I'm sure they exist. :)

I did not realize the connection of Alyssa and Niobe. In the Iliad, Niobe is mentioned as an example of continuing on in spite of grief. Perhaps it is that more than the punishment of Niobe why Catelyn is associated with Alyssa. Continuing on in the face of grief is a big theme in Catelyn's arc.

[ARYa_Nym]

Great thoughts, ShadowCat.

It's funny how that Lady's Armor line usually comes up when talking about Sansa and not as much for Arya. What comes to mind in that regard is Arya's first chapter when she takes leave of Myrcella in a sarcastic way. I'll have to search around for more examples for the Lady in Arya's personality. I'm sure they exist. :)

She has no connection to armor whether literal or metaphorical. So armoring oneself would be a Sansa thing for the metaphorical. Brienne is for the literal.

Courtesy can be just like those daggers for Catelyn. She uses what she has to. She previously said that she had no love for swords and wondered why men/boys liked fighting but of course when Bran is attacked she's going to use what she has to protect herself and him so courtesy can be like that. When she's Uncat she likes to hang people.

As for knights that's an area where Arya did show delusion in ACoK. When she thought they would help women and children and she could ask them to escort her to safety.

Some thought Arya was mimicking either Sansa or Jeyne's lady like behavior although Arya thought that Mercy was:

Spoiler

Mercy still had some lines to say, her first lines and her last, and Izembaro would have her pretty little empty head if she were late for her own rape.

Although I think her language was still off for a lady like SPOILER casually talking about her lack of titties with a male who is not her husband.

As for lady it's mostly negative. Either she doesn't want to be one, doesn't act like one, or is not a good one:

"I was a wolf, she thought, but now I’’m just some stupid little lady again. "

“Now you look a proper young lady.” “I’m not a lady, Arya wanted to tell her, I’m a wolf.

ETA: ^This is actually similar to Elia Sand but in the opposite way. Elia insists on people calling her a lady even though she is not one.

After fighting with Gendry:

...Anguy smiled one of his stupid freckly smiles and said, “Are we certain this one is a highborn lady?”

“What kind of lady throws crapapples at people?” “The bad kind?” said Arya, suddenly contrite.

The bad kind of lady can be like Sabitha Vypren who was also to be married to a Frey.

"His widow, Lady Sabitha of House Vypren, proved redoubtable for her courage and notorious for her lack of mercy. According to Mushroom, she was a "sharp-featured, sharp-tongued harridan of House Vypren, who would sooner ride than dance, wore mail instead of silk, was fond of killing men and kissing women."

Except she doesn't wear mail as I said so there's no connection to armor.

I suppose Brienne can be used for when she incorrectly thought that Willow Heddle was/could be Arya. She thought it was her because Willow is plain per info given to her by Cat on Arya's looks and she was commanding everyone. She said Arya would have been raised to command and give orders and that Willow was acting the queen of the castle as a lady would. Although if she had met the real Arya she would have no doubt had the same reaction as Sam and think she's a street urchin and Sam was unable to tell her gender.

I think now she looks female but she's bald and of course everyone who interacts with her treats her like she's a commoner girl.

[David Selig]

Catelyn (as well as the Blackfish) clearly does not feel comfortable among them. She sees them for what they are and it's not easy to hide her feelings of resentment for the sake of courtesy. Courtesy that she keeps because she must, as is part of a lady's duty, but that "makes her mouth ache". She has to consciously try hard to keep her courtesies, so I think that for Cat the "courtesy armor" has the same effect as Ser Vardis' steel armor: it's more tiring than protective. Cat is not a "natural" in courtesies and "ladylike attitude" like Sansa is. It's just not Cat's "weapon of choice".

Yeah, this is one of the main reasons the constant "Sansa and Cat have the same personality" claims so baffling. Catelyn is not a courteous and polite person by nature at all, and she has very little patience for fools. She really doesn't enjoy social interactions just for the sake of exchanging pleasantries and making smalltalk.

[ARYa_Nym]

That's one of the reasons why I think she's an ice queen. But we've gone over that already. I think Arya is more similar to Brandon in this respect because while Cat doesn't want to be polite she's not going to start using language like cunt which both Brandon and Arya did. Arya isn't just rude she's uncouth.

ETA: And I think another thing is that she's hanging out with rogues, scum, and prostitutes and started to mimic their behavior. I'm sure she got into the habit of saying cunt and titties and the like because of hanging around them. And speaking sexual to them because sailors would do it to her. Ladies have a sense of propriety and know not to do that. Like Cat seemed annoyed when LF spoke familiar to her. He's not her husband.

But Arya will speak any kind of way with men she's not married to and Brandon did too with women considering he was talking to Barbrey like that while most likely engaged to Cat. That reminds me that Gendry apologized about talking about his cock to her after finding out she was a lady but of course she didn't care.

[LordStoneheart]

Ah ok. I thought there might be a few hidden references to Arya and a Lady side of her.

[ARYa_Nym]

Shippers who want her with Gendry as Lady of Storm's End think so.

Although I thought the evidence pointed to the opposite. Like that show line you would be my lady I thought was saying that she would be the one giving him orders and he didn't want that but they thought it meant he wanted her to be his wife or something like that.

From the text there was this song at Acorn Hall.

“My featherbed is deep and soft,
and there I’ll lay you down,
I’ll dress you all in yellow silk
and on your head a crown.
For you shall be my lady love,
and I shall be your lord.
I’ll always keep you warm and safe,
and guard you with my sword.

And how she smiled and how she laughed, the maiden of the tree.
She spun away and said to him,
no featherbed for me.
I’ll wear a gown of golden leaves,
and bind my hair with grass,
But you can be my forest love,
and me your forest lass.”

But I also thought this implied the opposite of their interpretation. Again it was she would be lady of Storm's End with the lord and lady love talk but I saw it as her rejecting marriage. He wants to be her lord and dress her in yellow silk (Baratheon color) and give her a crown (king's son) and guard her with his sword (he's a knight now) but the girl says no. But I also doubt they'll ever be lovers especially after the Mercy chapter.

There's also Jamie's line about marrying a Blacksmith which people use to pair Gendry with either Arya or Sansa but Jamie said live as commoners so to me I don't see that as supporting the Storm's End idea.

ETA: There's more but it's in the romance reread. I don't see what they're seeing though personally.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Yeah, this is one of the main reasons the constant "Sansa and Cat have the same personality" claims so baffling. Catelyn is not a courteous and polite person by nature at all, and she has very little patience for fools. She really doesn't enjoy social interactions just for the sake of exchanging pleasantries and making smalltalk.

I've always maintained that the Stark sisters' physical resemblance to their respective parents is misleading. Arya is the one who most resembles Cat in personality (as well as having quite a bit of Brandon and Lyanna's wolf blood). Sansa is much more like Ned; I think she got the inclination to courtesy from him. (Arya and Rickon got quite a bit of wolf blood, Robb has a touch; Sansa and Brandon are willful in their ways but don't have that hot temper and impetuousness - they incline more to Ned's melancholy.)

I'll post more on this later, when I have time, but this chapter is where it's brought home to Cat that Lysa has absolutely 0 sense of family, duty, and honor. Blackfish is right, it's a "festival of fools." And Lysa sure does splash out on clothes and jewelry, doesn't she! Being the wife of a Lord Paramount, and one who was a King's Hand, I'm sure she can afford it, but it's an interesting contrast to Cat, who is as high up in the aristocracy as her sister but seems to prefer plainer, more practical clothing (just like Arya, in fact). No, I don't believe that the Starks are poor; rather, I think Cat does not like to dress up and would rather wear practical, comfortable clothes.