Family, Duty, Honor: The Catelyn Re-read Project

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Great work, Lord Stoneheart!

Loved the observations about Walder Frey. I wonder, was it the diminishing attitude of the "old blood" nobles that made the "Late Lord Frey" as he is, or is it the other way around, the personality of the Frey patriarch (heh) reinforcing the negative stereotype?

Whatever it is, the only coin that could pay for this passage was marriage(s). It is clear, I think, that Catelyn did her best in negotiating. Obviously, I disagree with the claims that she could get a better deal. However, there is a lot of room here to discuss the price of war, and what it means in terms of personal sacrifices.

I am talking specifically about Arya's betrothal. Robb is asked to consent, as he is the Lord, for the whole package. Arya's consent was never a prerequisite, and that's quite disturbing in itself.

I must clarify that I do understand Robb's and Catelyn's position here and can't really see what else they could do. After all, it is about saving her own life too. The problem lies within the potential of what would happen should the time to fulfil the promise comes; the amount of coercion that it would take (if any would ever be sufficient...) in order to keep the Stark honour high as well as the lifetime misery that it would inflict on the specific individual.

Both Cat and Robb are aware of this (though Bran knows better, I think) but it seems to me that Robb understands it only superficially. Catelyn thinks that:

He had never seemed more manly to her than he did in that moment. Boys might play with swords, but it took a lord to make a marriage pact, knowing what it meant.

...but, having the advantage of hindsight we know now that Robb, in fact, did not know what it meant, not really.

We do not get Catelyn's own thoughts about it but I get the feeling that she accepts the full consequences of their decisions here as the bitter price of war. There may be a point of comparison with Daenerys here, when she tells herself that she must be strong and face what is the price of war (paraphrased) but in the end, she just can't. Cat, however, is not a little girl; she has seen war before, she has been a part of a similar bargain herself, she is, after all, her usual pragmatic self. Only, I can't help but look at Genna Lannister's bitterness and (not so subtle) misery and think that this deal (any similar deal) really, really sucks...

Point of no return...

It is. In fact, I think GRRM is making a play on words to a VERY famous quote about river crossing and die...."Alea iacta est" (the die is cast) or so said (supposedly) Julius Caesar when he crossed the Rubicon.

You are definitely right about the allusion to the Rubicon.

Not only is there this dice reference, but also he place is named "the Crossing"... Was it placed at the Red Fork instead of the Green, the parallel would be almost perfect.

(Rubicon -from rubeus- was so named so for the red color of its waters, due to mud deposits, just like the Red Fork of the Trident)

I have the feeling that this bridge is so going to burn!

Two unrelated notes:

• I really like that Cat notices, understands and appreciates the importance of communications and orders to shoot down any raven from the Twins (although it's kind of obvious and Brynden has already taken care about it, it serves to demonstrate Catelyn's qualities).
  
• Sweetrobin's fostering serial continues here, IMO, to give us a clue that Lysa should be included in the suspects list of "who killed Jon Arryn" mystery. Last chapter we got her response in Cat's proposal (the moondoor) and here we get the confirmation (from a third and unrelated party) that Jon Arryn himself intended to have his son fostered. So that it doesn't come out of the blue when (much later) we get the revelation.
  

[BastardlyRock]

Nothing like returning from a little hiatus to find a couple exceptionally well written chapter analyses and loads of engaging comments, so fantastic work ShadowCat Rivers on Cat VIII and LordStoneheart on IX! :cheers: Always insightful and enjoyable reads, both of you. Second, I apologize for my absence recently... it has been a tumultuous time.(Ooo, don't often get to use that one, tumultuous, love the way it rolls of the tongue...)

For me these couple of chapters (when taken together but especially VIII) represent a pivotal turning point in both Cat's character and how the typical reader approaches her chapters. I think ShadowCat hit the nail on the head when pointing out that Cat has now taken on the role of the mentor, and that's almost sad to me. I'd mentioned much earlier in this re-read that I would have loved to have seen more of Tyrion and Cat's adventures together, and given time they would have quite possibly found a deeper respect for one another and could have potentially salved some wounds. Alas, such things were not meant to be, and here we are.

So from this point on Cat is no longer the adventurer herself, at least not in the leading sense that we had come to see at this point. It's important to note that I don't think this devalues her or makes her second fiddle to Robb's actions, but from here on the closest we can get to Robb, who is so very significant to the course of events in these first three books, is through Cat. Of course, Cat is the guiding light behind so many of Robb's actions. Too many times I've had to correct someone telling me "It was in a Robb chapter" [Disclaimer: I have seen no one on this website say that] when I know they meant it was insight or events concerning Robb seen through a Cat chapter. (Then of course there's the unfortunate fact that the screen time given to Robb in the show helps perpetuate a lot of misconception and I personally feel that Cat could have received a much deserved and deeper exploration of character instead... but then the version of an adaptation I would have enjoyed would probably have alienated many, so I digress... no really, sorry for getting so off topic... :tantrum: )

So looking at Cat as a mentor, adviser and mother, and especially how those roles conflict, is really the heart of Cat analysis, especially in regards to some of her more controversial acts, but I'll try not to get too ahead...

She's could be Cersei or Lysa, in other words. But Cat is very much a mix of Luwin and Ned here; she's skilled not only in war but in diplomacy...she knows that she can't outright correct Robb but rather she leads him, with a mother's touch as it were, to the right answer.

This here and later events really show how sexist and plain stupid the system in Westeros is. Lords and knights would rather follow a 15 year old kid than his mother who's clearly more competent, experienced and has been Ned's closest adviser for years. For a 15-16 year old Robb did very well, but there is a reason we don't put such teens in charge anymore - they aren't mature enough.

I can't agree more with these. I think these two chapters go a long way to support the idea that Cat was an ideal leader, and it's a shame she wasn't given that chance to flourish. That being said, she brings as much grace and dignity as humanly possible to the role(s) she does assume. Ultimately Robb's youth really is the downfall of the entire effort. That's not to say that Tywin wouldn't have possibly found another weakness to exploit, but as ShadowCat pointed out, Robb truly didn't grasp the levity of his marriage pact, and to think that his discrediting it wouldn't have serious repercussions was incredibly naive.

I agree that Arya's betrothal is troublesome here, but not surprising. I understood it to be that both Cat and Robb knew this would be problematic, but took a sort of "cross that bridge when we get there" attitude about the whole thing. (Honestly, no pun intended, and no, I don't apologize for my lame humor ;) )

. He can’t just dissolve his army as he may have been able to do once before. He’s now leading men who have never known loyalty to the north, only this new loyalty to him. Catelyn’s thoughts at the end sum it up nicely.

For good or ill, her son had thrown the dice.

Wonderful wrap-up to your chapter LordStoneheart. Cat had pointed out in the previous chapter that Robb had no other options but to fight, but that took on a brand new significance at the Twins. This really was the point of no return for Robb and his bannermen.

Keep up the great work everyone! I'll have Cat X up this Friday. (Edit: okay, so it turned out to be Monday... my apologies folks. :'( )

One last thing...

I have the feeling that this bridge is so going to burn!

Yes. So much yes.

[RainGhost]

Another excellent analysis, well done Lord Stoneheart :bowdown:

· And still, though Catelyn is not afraid to chide him when she sees it necessary, she will not do so in a manner than will undermine him

Another point of interest is that even though Catelyn is doing what she can to help shape Robb into a good Lord, she is not taking undue credit here. In her thoughts, all her hope for Robb’s future is on Ned.

He has learned so much from Ned, she thought as she watched him, but has he learned enough?

Did you teach him wisdom as well as valor, Ned? she wondered. Did you teach him how to kneel?

I like this bit. When Ned left Winterfell, he charged Catelyn with completing Robb’s lord training. This is what she is doing here – another example of Ned and Cat working as a team. I think the northern lords respect Catelyn because of this. In reality Catelyn should actually be in charge here because Robb is still under age but that ship has sailed and Catelyn accepts that. She doesn’t act like Cersei, who tries to grab all the power for herself, or Lysa, who is too overprotective. She recognises that Robb is in command and gives him good advice.

I also don't think it's fair to criticise Cat for getting a bad deal. Two marriages seems excessive but as we don’t get to see the negotiations, it could very well be that Walder Frey would accept nothing less, in which case Cat did well to get two wards/hostages out of the deal. I also don’t think that anyone else in the northern contingent could have got them across that bridge (even Ned wouldn’t have thought of marriage alliances).

In hindsight, I think that Robb and Arya were not the best people to make a marriage pact with but they were the only children Catelyn had to work with. Even if Robb had not broken the pact, there’s a good chance Arya would have. I don’t think it was the seriousness of the marriage pact that Robb didn’t grasp; I think it was more a lack of understanding about life. Like when Jon took his NW vows, I don’t think Robb ever imagined that it would be difficult to honour the vow, so he didn't fully understand what he was agreeing to. He also didn’t know what kind of man Walder Frey really was (it was Cat who did the negotiating after all). Similarly, Catelyn is very dutiful – I think she would have expected Robb and Arya to do their duty in the end, as she did, even if they didn’t like it.

[BastardlyRock]

AGoT: Catelyn X

Observations

• Cat is no stranger to waiting for men to return from war, and the brutal honesty of it isn't lost on her.
  
• Cat continues to put up a hardened outer shell, refusing to let on how she fears for Robb.
  
• This chapter reminds me of the old campaigns about the strength of women holding down the homefront while the men were at war.
  
• The Blackfish is (still, unsurprisingly) amazing.
  
• Jaime is perhaps the most calm and collected man to be taken as a prisoner of war ever, even managing to pull off a fantastic little quip in the process.
  

Analysis

This is a pretty short and straightforward chapter where we spend most of the time suffering alongside Cat as she waits for Robb to return from the Battle of the Whispering Wood. Right off the bat we're treated to a wonderful little snippet where Robb wanted to leave fifty men to guard his mother, while Cat herself only requested 10, hoping for the others to aid Robb in battle. Ultimately, 30 men guard her, leaving neither her nor Robb happy. The exchange goes a long way to show how very much they care for one another. Despite the chapter's shorter length, we're given a few wonderful gems of insight regarding Cat's upbringing, specifically her vast experience in waiting for men to return from war. When she was young she waited for her father, then Brandon, (who never returned), Ned, and now Robb. Cat's story is far from the Cinderella story. It is fraught with hardship and heartache, and through this we can appreciate what it is that has grounded Cat in her candid sensibilities. She maintains the cool hardened exterior that she's been working on since reuniting with Robb. After bidding him farewell as Robb leaves to give courage to his troops Cat reflects sadly,

And who will give me courage? she wondered, yet she kept her silence and made herself smile for him.

It's one of those few moments where we see the real Cat, the frightened mother who wants nothing more than to wrap her son in a bubble and never let him leave. I can't help but admire the chance we're given as the reader to see into Cat's thoughts here, as it seems to me that from any other perspective her demeanor may betray her true inner feelings, leaving the reader questioning whether or not Cat really cared. With the access we have we know not only does she care, but the love she has for her family is really the only factor guiding her along her path.

And through a well thought out and very tricky ploy, Robb, with some undeniable help from the Blackfish, manages to lure Jaime Lannister out and into their trap.

"He is no man for sitting in a tent while his carpenters build siege towers."

Well that's because he's a badass. Basically the only way they could ever hope to catch him was by using his own awesomeness against him. Regardless, he is caught, though the wait feels like an eternity for Cat. Some items of interest here... Cat does no shy away from listening to the sounds of the battle as they rage on. She takes in every war cry, every order shouted, every time the steel sings. I can't help but admire the fact that we see (or, hear) the battle from Cat's perspective. By not plunging the reader into the midst of the bloodshed itself, it adds an entirely new layer of significance, and is all the more frightening for it.

"I would offer you my sword, but I seem to have mislaid it."

"It is not your sword I want, ser," she told him. "Give me my father and my brother Edmure. Give me my daughters. Give me my lord husband."

"I have mislaid them as well, I fear." :hat:

If there's one line that captures Cat's resiliency, her fortitude and the fact that she is without a doubt better equipped to lead this army than any other person, it's this exchange with Robb after he finally does return, splattered in the blood of his companions,

"All the time (Jaime) was shouting for me. If they hadn't tried to stop him-"

"- I should then be mourning in place of Lord Karstark," Catelyn said. "Your men did what they were sworn to do, Robb. They died protecting their liege lord. Grieve for them. Honor them for their valor. But not now. You have no time for grief. You may have lopped the head off the snake, but three quarters of the body is still coiled around my father's castle. We have won a battle, not a war."

One last tidbit, from early on in the chapter as Cat reflects on how big Robb has grown,

Let him know sixteen, and twenty, and fifty. Let him grow as tall as his father, and hold his own son in his arms. Please, please, please.

Probably the hardest line I've had to read so far on our re-read journey. It comes not long after Cat reflects that she had brought him forth in blood and pain, and is followed soon after with, all she could see was the babe they had laid at her breast at Riverrun, so long ago. The cold dichotomy between life and death is no more clearer than it is here (especially in hindsight). Cat is no stranger to war, and she recognizes it for it's unnatural ability to wrench young men away from life before their time, before they've had the chance to live full lives. As we know, it turns out that all of her fears were more than valid.

[Tywin Manderly]

Well done, Bastardly Rock!! :cheers:

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Beautifully written, Bastardly Rock!

It's one of those few moments where we see the real Cat, the frightened mother who wants nothing more than to wrap her son in a bubble and never let him leave. I can't help but admire the chance we're given as the reader to see into Cat's thoughts here, as it seems to me that from any other perspective her demeanor may betray her true inner feelings, leaving the reader questioning whether or not Cat really cared. With the access we have we know not only does she care, but the love she has for her family is really the only factor guiding her along her path.

^

This one really sums it up nicely.

I recall that Arya_Nym, early in the thread, said that Catelyn fits the image of the ice queen. It seems that this is the image that she projects to the outside world. It's a sort of armor like Sansa's "courtesy armor" - only, Cat uses it to protect her son (her family in general), not herself.

Catelyn's stance is also apparent on the advice she gives to Robb:

“-I should then be mourning in place of Lord Karstark,” Catelyn said. “Your men did what they were sworn to do, Robb. They died protecting their liege lord. Grieve for them. Honor them for their valor. But not now. You have no time for grief. You may have lopped the head off the snake, but three quarters of the body is still coiled around my father’s castle. We have won a battle, not a war.”

The feeling of waiting is made stronger by the general ambience of the chapter: the woods, the night, the (warm) wind, the echoes. I agree that hearing, not seeing, sharpens the experience.

• This chapter reminds me of the old campaigns about the strength of women holding down the homefront while the men were at war.
  

Oh yes, Cat would be the poster woman of these campains. So strong and so determined for the sake of father, husband, brother, son...

Waiting is the duty that they've posed on her but I think that this is the point that she starts to resent it: she remembers all the broken promises and now, the man that she is waiting for is not just a loved one; he's one that she brought him forth in blood and pain. That she can only stay there with no way to help must be killing her. That she is content to wait is, I believe, more about self-discipline than about her actual emotions.

In comparison, two books later we have Arya watching another battle:

Arya watched from atop her horse, on the crest of the wooded ridge that overlooked the septry, mill, brewhouse, and stables and the desolation of weeds, burnt trees, and mud that surrounded them. The trees were mostly bare now, and the few withered brown leaves that still clung to the branches did little to obstruct her view. Lord Beric had left Beardless Dick and Mudge to guard them. Arya hated being left behind like she was some stupid child, but at least Gendry had been kept back as well. She knew better than to try and argue. This was battle, and in battle you had to obey.

This one hates waiting, hates the role of "the one who stays behind" and hates the education that would make her accept that role. Only the bits of military wisdom that I suppose she's overheard from the Ned keeps her "benched".

Onece again, Catelyn pays a lot of attention to Grey Wind.

And Grey Wind threw back his head and howled.

The sound seemed to go right through Catelyn Stark, and she found herself shivering. It was a terrible sound, a frightening sound, yet there was music in it too. For a second she felt something like pity for the Lannisters below. So this is what death sounds like, she thought.

...

Once she heard Robb’s voice, as clear as if he’d been standing at her side, calling, “To me! To me!” And she heard his direwolf, snarling and growling, heard the snap of those long teeth, the tearing of flesh, shrieks of fear and pain from man and horse alike. Was there only one wolf? It was hard to be certain.

Little by little, the sounds dwindled and died, until at last there was only the wolf. As a red dawn broke in the east, Grey Wind began to howl again.

Grey Wind signals the starting moment and the end of the battle. The song of his howling announces victory for their forces and death for the enemy.

The bolded part is interesting too: it could only be the echoing of the "whispering wood", but we know that a certain big bad wolf has taken residence in the area... could she have joined the party?

“I have mislaid them as well, I fear.”

Yes Jaime, you have. Very badly misplaced, and you should fear, for real. (That's a pending developement that I can't wait to read...)

Theon's fatal flaws, that will be his undoing, are also on display in this chapter.

Let him know sixteen, and twenty, and fifty. Let him grow as tall as his father, and hold his own son in his arms. Please, please, please.

Probably the hardest line I've had to read so far on our re-read journey. It comes not long after Cat reflects that she had brought him forth in blood and pain, and is followed soon after with, all she could see was the babe they had laid at her breast at Riverrun, so long ago. The cold dichotomy between life and death is no more clearer than it is here (especially in hindsight). Cat is no stranger to war, and she recognizes it for it's unnatural ability to wrench young men away from life before their time, before they've had the chance to live full lives. As we know, it turns out that all of her fears were more than valid.

In hindsight, the chapter is really ominous: Robb is given the nickname The Young Wolf... Badass, but fatal. Right from the start it gives you the reasons of his downfall. Like their childhood hero, the young dragon, Robb's life would be like a falling star.

(Harry the Heir, having been referenced as the Young Falcon, is not for this world for much longer it seems.)

[BearQueen87]

AGoT: Catelyn X

Very nice job BastardlyRock!

I don't have a whole lot to say this time around (I blame other re-read essays that are taking up my life...)

Jaime is perhaps the most calm and collected man to be taken as a prisoner of war ever, even managing to pull off a fantastic little quip in the process.

Lol, yes. Also...arrogant as hell. But that's Jaime. (I do love him)

And who will give me courage? she wondered, yet she kept her silence and made herself smile for him

Not only does she make herself smile for Robb, but she makes herself be more..."Ned-like"...for the men. Hallis Mollen for example is trying to reassure her that "it won't be long now" but instead of fretting over it all, Cat is the one who tells Mollen that "it will come when it comes." Instead she's content to listen the music (interesting word choice when waiting for news of a battle) of the brook.

Once again, more association of Cat and water/watery elements--and the ground is described as moist as well.

I can't help but admire the fact that we see (or, hear) the battle from Cat's perspective. By not plunging the reader into the midst of the bloodshed itself, it adds an entirely new layer of significance, and is all the more frightening for it.

It's a credit to George that I actually find POVs from characters waiting for a battle to be done rather than characters in the heat of battle to be more compelling. You're with Cat in spirit here, wondering if Robb is dead or alive, if the Northman have been victorious or failed.

"I would offer you my sword, but I seem to have mislaid it."

"It is not your sword I want, ser," she told him. "Give me my father and my brother Edmure. Give me my daughters. Give me my lord husband."

"I have mislaid them as well, I fear."

But a lady always remembers her courtesies. Cat is well within her rights here to call him Kingslayer, Oathbreaker, ect...to throw all of Jaime's crimes in his face and in fact, Robb's men announce Jaime as such. But she doesn't. Her son wears armor that is steal but Cat has her own steal-like armor.

Misc Notes

1. Cat notes that Robb upon his stallion is a true knight...but with the addition of Grey Wind lopping beside him I am reminded of the KitN of old inthe crypts of Winterfell who had their sword and their wolf. Little bit of a hint hint nudge nudge. Also, random aside, but there is so much gray associated with Robb--he's on a grey horse, he has a grey wolf named Grey Wind. It gives me pause. Grey is a neutral color, neither black nor white and existing inbetween. Does it mean something? Not sure except perhaps an idea of "limbo" and that Robb is only a hair's breath from death at any given moment.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

I'm sorry, my cat made a post while I was in the shower, and I don't know how to remove it!

[LordStoneheart]

Well done, Bastardly! (Apologies for the delay.. but the semester is finally over.)

The theme of waiting is used excellently here. I think this may be unique in her lifetime of doing so. This time she was close enough for a guard to be instated for her, and close enough to here the horror of war. Because the previous chapter did include a battle, I have to conclude that the reason we're not "in" the Whispering Wood has to do with GRRM's purpose for Catelyn. Even though she is left behind by our "hero" Robb, she is still "on stage." The focus doesn't shift away from her even though there is a battle not that far away. Robb could have been the POV here (I've seen it claimed that GRRM regrets not giving Robb a POV but I've not seen this reliably shown before. Feel free to lead me to it.) but we Catelyn in some of her most tender moments. Who will give me courage? And some of her most fierce. It is not your sword I want, ser. Give me my father and my brother Edmure. Give me my daughters. Give me my lord husand.

I also totally love how Catelyn can begin to feel sympathy for the Lannister soldiers when the battle begins.

[BearQueen87]

I'm sure I'm not alone in this re-read on this, but I'm really glad Robb never got a POV. I liked Robb as a character but it's quite inventive of GRRM to 1) have a mother with her son who is at war and 2) to tell the story from the mother's POV and not the King's. Robb, for me, was never fully developed enough outside of how Cat views him and I was more interested in what Cat wast thinking and feelings.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I'm sure I'm not alone in this re-read on this, but I'm really glad Robb never got a POV. I liked Robb as a character but it's quite inventive of GRRM to 1) have a mother with her son who is at war and 2) to tell the story from the mother's POV and not the King's. Robb, for me, was never fully developed enough outside of how Cat views him and I was more interested in what Cat wast thinking and feelings.

I agree, either Robb's or Cat's POV would be redundant and I am very glad he chose Cat. The *mother* is rarely presented in fantasy literature as anything more than that, as if the other aspects of human life are consumed by motherhood...

I think, however, that Robb is very well developed for a non-POV character. In fact, a significant part of this re-read could have been a Robb re-read if the participants chose to focus there... Only, much of Robb's struggles, uncertainties, problems and dilemmas are also part of all the young POV characters arcs (unfortunately --or, fortunately from literary perspective-- Robb did not share their second, third and fourth chances to outlive their mistakes and learn); Cat, on the other hand, is unique in what she represents and what she puts forth as a POV.

[LordStoneheart]

That's a good point and a good idea, ShadowCat. Robb would be great as his own reread despite not being a POV (the Stannis reread could be a good example.) If anyone is interested, there is an essay I enjoy that details Robb's arc as a response to him being called a flat character.

A Dream of Passion

There may be a few flaws with it but overall I think the author gives a good example of what being in Robb's shoes may have been like.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

AGOT, Catelyn XI

Oh, Ned…

Summary

Catelyn and Robb return to Riverrun after 14 years, where she meets again with her dying father in a very touching scene. Meanwhile, news of Renly’s crowning have reached Riverrun and there is a meeting to decide what they should do on the matter. Arguments are being put forth, Catelyn’s call for peace is dismissed and in the end, the Greatjon with his epic “King in the North” speech wins the debate.

Analysis

This is a very dense chapter and I don’t even know where to begin… a lot will be left uncovered and hopefully the comments will give a more complete view.

The chapter is roughly divided in four parts: the arrival to Riverrun, the meeting with Hoster, a brief interlude and then the council. Use of contrast is the dominant literary element.

The circumstances of her return to Riverrun are symmetrically opposite to those of her departure: young bride vs new widow, end vs start of a war, hope vs near despair.

The “inversed world” feeling is later made sharper by Lord Hoster’s condition: Now he is the one waiting and watching for Cat.

Also, the places they chose to sit on the boat --Robb in the bow, Catelyn toward the stern-- reflect the roles they chose to play in life.

This is one the chapters dealing with the aftermath of Ned’s death

She wondered if indeed her heart would ever lift again. Oh, Ned... [ :crying: :crying: :crying: ]

..but immediately after that, her thoughts are focused once again in practical matters like the defences of Riverrun:

Catelyn gazed up at the bars and wondered how deep the rust went and how well the portcullis would stand up to a ram and whether it ought to be replaced. Thoughts like that were seldom far from her mind these days.

Catelyn’s arc is all the more related to Alyssa’s story and final curse. We see her repressing her need to mourn so that she can be strong and useful, but it takes a heavy toll on her. Poor Edmure receives some really undeserved snapping when he’s only trying to say something nice to her, but she is also too harsh on herself, blaming herself for the Catnapping and all the subsequent events. The gods are not spared either.

A blind rage filled her, a rage at all the world; at her brother Edmure and her sister Lysa, at the Lannisters, at the maesters, at Ned and her father and the monstrous gods who would take them both away from her.

There comes a time in life that parents get old and the children become their protectors; it’s in the natural cycle of life. The realization, however, is always sad as it invokes thoughts about getting old and valar morghulis. But it must be a true shock to suddenly, after so many years away, come back to see your father not only old and weak but dying… Cat & Hoster’s reunion is a melancholic and deeply moving scene.

“He likes to sit in the sun and watch the rivers,” Edmure explained.

This line clearly evokes the fallen Khal Drogo of the previous Dany chapter. Hoster is yet another fallen pillar in Catelyn’s life in the worst timing possible.

“My little cat.” A tremulous smile touched his face as his hand groped for hers. “I watched for you...”

…always brings tears to my eyes. This, and the few clues of his corroding guilt for what he did to Lysa.

The bottom line is, Hoster is unable to help not even provide some psychological support – on the contrary he is one more burden for Cat’s heart.

Meanwhile, in the rest of the castle, life just goes on as showcased by Theon’s youthful and superficial narration of the battle.

It was what Ned would have done. He is his father’s son as much as mine, I must remember. Oh, gods, Ned... [ :crying: :crying: :crying: ]

…

She asked herself what gods she kept these days, and could not find an answer.

The progress of Catelyn’s relation to religion: started as a devoted follower of the Seven, coming closer to her children’s old gods and now questioning --not the power, but the good will of-- all gods.

How young they all had been

The godswood is the scene for once again a contrast: Catelyn’s innocent and childish --as it should be!-- youth, to Robb’s 15 years and charged with a bloody duty.

[…] he had ridden in battle and killed men with a sword, surely he had been kissed. There were tears in her eyes. She wiped them away angrily.

War turns the natural order of life events upside down; unkissed boys fight in battles and die. The mother cannot accept that. I think that her thoughts here in the godswood are a prompt to argue for peace.

Moving to the council scene, we get an affirmation that Robb is indeed Ned’s son: Robb is more concerned with what is “right” than what is beneficial.

Catelyn is thinking of what is beneficial to life, also making it what is “right” from another perspective. I will quote fully Catelyn’s speech for peace:

“Why not a peace?” Catelyn asked.

The lords looked at her, but it was Robb’s eyes she felt, his and his alone. “My lady, they murdered my lord father, your husband,” he said grimly. He unsheathed his longsword and laid it on the table before him, the bright steel on the rough wood. “This is the only peace I have for Lannisters.”

The Greatjon bellowed his approval, and other men added their voices, shouting and drawing swords and pounding their fists on the table. Catelyn waited until they had quieted. “My lords,” she said then, “Lord Eddard was your liege, but I shared his bed and bore his children. Do you think I love him any less than you?” Her voice almost broke with her grief, but Catelyn took a long breath and steadied herself. “Robb, if that sword could bring him back, I should never let you sheathe it until Ned stood at my side once more... but he is gone, and hundred Whispering Woods will not change that. Ned is gone, and Daryn Hornwood, and Lord Karstark’s valiant sons, and many other good men besides, and none of them will return to us. Must we have more deaths still?” “You are a woman, my lady,” the Greatjon rumbled in his deep voice. “Women do not understand these things.”

“You are the gentle sex,” said Lord Karstark, with the lines of grief fresh on his face. “A man has a need for vengeance.”

“Give me Cersei Lannister, Lord Karstark, and you would see how gentle a woman can be,” Catelyn replied. “Perhaps I do not understand tactics and strategy... but I understand futility. We went to war when Lannister armies were ravaging the riverlands, and Ned was a prisoner, falsely accused of treason. We fought to defend ourselves, and to win my lord’s freedom.

“Well, the one is done, and the other forever beyond our reach. I will mourn for Ned until the end of my days, but I must think of the living. I want my daughters back, and the queen holds them still. If I must trade our four Lannisters for their two Starks, I will call that a bargain and thank the gods. I want you safe, Robb, ruling at Winterfell from your father’s seat. I want you to live your life, to kiss a girl and wed a woman and father a son. I want to write an end to this. I want to go home, my lords, and weep for my husband.”

The hall was very quiet when Catelyn finished speaking.

Cat’s proposal goes against all they know and understand about “debts of honour” and revenge. In many cultures, revenge was viewed a sacred duty to the dead as well as the only substitute for justice. I think that’s also the common mindset of westerosi and we should keep that in mind in our assessments for Robb and the rest. It’s a very big thing what Catelyn asks from them, to put aside the need for vengeance.

Catelyn also shares this mindset and need and I believe that it really adds an extra layer to her proposal; she is willing to overcome her own emotional needs in order to do what is right, from her perspective - the mother’s perspective. In fact, this speech comes in contrast to her feeling of blind rage at everything and everyone.

Once again, her arguments appeal mostly to the logic of her audience: futility and the future, the prospect of the living. While there is a lot of emotion in her speech, she tries to balance it out, as she wants her opinion to be heard and not dismissed as “woman’s weakness”. And she does succeed in making them listen, proving she’s quite good a speaker. Not a match to the Greatjon’s rhetorical prowess, though :).

The final part of her speech makes me think that it was inspired in the godswood.

A question arises, was she “objectively” right?

Personally, I believe that Brynden’s skepticism is sound:

“Peace,” said her uncle Brynden. “Peace is sweet, my lady... but on what terms? It is no good hammering your sword into a plowshare if you must forge it again on the morrow.”

I believe that the “game of thrones” at that time had, irreversibly, taken the form of a zero sum game, “win or die”. Too many kings, all demanding fealty: Peace with the one means war with the other.

IMO, perhaps they could have played with this fact to their benefit, declaring for example that the various pretenders should prove themselves to be “true kings” by taking action against Tywin’s unlawful attack to the Riverlands and by doing justice to Ned helping free his daughters. But they were too honourable and their thinking too much tied to the concept of monarchy to actually see an alternative. In that sense, Catelyn’s later proposal for a great council is pretty impressive too.

Back to Cat’s peace speech, it is interesting to see it side by side with Elaria’s:

“A start?” said Ellaria Sand, incredulous. “Gods forbid. I would it were a finish. Tywin Lannister is dead. So are Robert Baratheon, Amory Lorch, and now Gregor Clegane, all those who had a hand in murdering Elia and her children. Even Joffrey, who was not yet born when Elia died. I saw the boy perish with mine own eyes, clawing at his throat as he tried to draw a breath. Who else is there to kill? Do Myrcella and Tommen need to die so the shades of Rhaenys and Aegon can be at rest? Where does it end?”

[…]

“Oberyn wanted vengeance for Elia. Now the three of you want vengeance for him. I have four daughters, I remind you. Your sisters. My Elia is fourteen, almost a woman. Obella is twelve, on the brink of maiden-hood. They worship you, as Dorea and Loreza worship them. If you should die, must El and Obella seek vengeance for you, then Dorea and Loree for them? Is that how it goes, round and round forever? I ask again, where does it end?” Ellaria Sand laid her hand on the Mountain’s head. “I saw your father die. Here is his killer. Can I take a skull to bed with me, to give me comfort in the night? Will it make me laugh, write me songs, care for me when I am old and sick?”

[…]

“Ripe for what? To make more skulls?” Ellaria Sand turned to the prince. “They will not see. I can hear no more of this.”

Futility, and the prospects of the living are her arguments too. The thought of her children is prominent. We don’t have Ellaria’s POV, but it wouldn’t be surprising if Ellaria, too, had a vengeful side that she was repressing for the sake of life.

Quite surprisingly, the Greatjon proves to be a very gifted speaker too.

“MY LORDS!” he shouted, his voice booming off the rafters. “Here is what I say to these two kings!” He spat. “Renly Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither. Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne? What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood or the barrows of the First Men? Even their gods are wrong. The Others take the Lannisters too, I’ve had a bellyful of them.” He reached back over his shoulder and drew his immense two-handed greatsword. “Why shouldn’t we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead!” He pointed at Robb with the blade. “There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to, m’lords,” he thundered. “The King in the North!”

Greatjon gives a way out to the dilemma of which king to choose. His proposal seizes the feel of the moment: “foreign” kings have let them down and left them to fend for themselves. When this happens, people manage to answer to their needs on their own, the status quo is questioned and rejected as redundant and a dead weight.

It also highlights that the seven kingdoms had never been integrated into one, not really. Never has a separatist movement gained support if the feeling of being ethnically/culturally different is not deeply grounded into a certain population.

However, from a tactical viewpoint I think that the timing was wrong. Had they been in the North without pending quests in the South, sure, fortify Moat Cailin and declare independence. But not when the throne holds hostages against you (unless you give them up for dead) and not when you also have to defend the Riverlands. Those two conditions IMO made the “King in the North” an unviable choice.

In hindsight, the following passage seals Robb the Young Wolf’s fate:

She looked at her son, watched him as he listened to the lords debate, frowning, troubled, yet wedded to his war. He had pledged himself to marry a daughter of Walder Frey, but she saw his true bride plain before her now: the sword he had laid on the table.

This is the penultimate chapter of “Game”, between a Jon and a Daenerys POV. All three chapters finish with the notion of old forces stirring again. Here it is of political nature in contrast to the magic of the enclosing chapters, it is however (rightfully) noted as a world shaping event:

Catelyn watched them rise and draw their blades, bending their knees and shouting the old words that had not been heard in the realm for more than three hundred years, since Aegon the Dragon had come to make the Seven Kingdoms one... yet now were heard again, ringing from the timbers of her father’s hall:

“The King in the North!”

Pandora's box has been opened. The following books will deal with the return of the unthinkable.

[SeanF]

Another very nice review. You have it right. Catelyn might want peace, but what peace was possible? The Lannisters have lost Arya, but were they to admit that to Robb, he would naturally assume that they were just acting in bad faith. How could there be peace if Arya was not returned to the Starks, along with Sansa? How could Robb give fealty to Joffrey, the man who had murdered his father? How could Joffrey ever rest easy, if Robb were Lord of the North? He'd always assume that Robb would seek vengeance at some point. There's no guarantee that the Lannisters will even remain in power in Kings Landing. What if Stannis or Renly win, and then seek vengeance on the Starks for bending the knee to the Lannisters?

For all of her passion and sincerity, Catelyn really hadn't thought through any good answer to the Blackfish's question. And, it was a question that was easy to anticipate.

[Mladen]

Brilliant work, Shadowcat Rivers. Really nice piece.

This chapter was always very symbolic for me in terms of Catelyn's motherhood. We have seen the wild side of it when Bran was attacked, and here we got the reasonable, peaceful, nurturing side. And that is the beauty of Cat. In my attempts to show that she-wolves have more side than people usually assume, and that Martin uses them all, I compared characters with Capitoline she-wolf and this chapter wonderfully shows us that. In the same paragraph, Catelyn showed that she is a caregiver, nurturer of her children, woman ready to pass everything in order to save her children, but at the same time, she is fearsome and wild. All those talk "you must be Stark for real" came to life as we see her. I assume that as much as we talked about Catelyn Tully Stark in this book, in the next two/three, we will speak about the force of nature Catelyn Stark is.

I adore the Ellaria comparison and I use it against my favorite Cat-hater :) (especially because she loves Ellaria). Also, this shows how wonderful writer GRRM is. No two characters are the same, even though there are recurring motives. Look at the spectrum of mothers, for example. They are not carbon copies of each other. They differ quite a lot... If we compare Cat and Ellaria, we see women of different background, different social status, two characters who are very, very different. And then we are struck in ADWD with Ellaria practically repeating Cat's words. Just as Martin expanded Cat's character to more than a mother in ACOK, we see in ADWD the expansion of the sexy seductress Ellaria is to the point where she meets with Catelyn Stark.

Pandora's box has been opened. The following books will deal with the return of the unthinkable.

Quite the fitting end of Cat's arc in AGOT... We have now entered the Game no one could have anticipated at the beginning.

[RainGhost]

Great analysis of a brilliant chapter Shadowcat Rivers. I like your analysis of the oppositions in Catelyn's departure and arrival at Riverrun. She thought the war was over and her family was safe but really it was just the calm between two storms. This is the only chance we really get to meet Hoster because he loses his wits after this. He seems like your pretty typical Tully, very loving of his family. Cat is now really only left with Uncle Brynden as someone older who she can go to for support, which is tough when she just wants to mourn for Ned.

I agree that it's in the godswood that she decides she wants peace. The thought that her 15 year-old son has killed men but perhaps never kissed a girl is so absurd and absolutely not what she wants for him that peace seems the only logical option. Catelyn, like most characters, is often conflicted by her different identities but in the council scene, there is no conflict. She is no longer a wife (*sob*), she has fulfilled her duty as daughter of Riverrun and she is now the dowager Lady of Winterfell but she is 5 times a mother. There's nothing more she can do for Ned, Riverrun or Winterfell but she has to keep Robb, Sansa and Arya safe.

In a way Catelyn's right because war is futile and will only lead to more loss but at the same time Brynden's right. I don't think peace is possible at this point. Catelyn is thinking only of Riverrun but Tywin Lannister's army is still in the riverlands, so the job is not done. The river lords cannot bend the knee to the people who burnt their lands and castles, just as Robb cannot bend the knee to the people who murdered his father. It would make their Houses look weak, which would make them vulnerable. Not to mention the fact that neither Joffrey or Tywin want peace. As Catelyn should have learnt already, a peace would only be temporary.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Thanks, glad that you all liked the review.

I would have liked to be able to say that Catelyn was definitely in the right, because it is so true that:

The thought that her 15 year-old son has killed men but perhaps never kissed a girl is so absurd and absolutely not what she wants for him that peace seems the only logical option.

Peace *should* always be the only logical option, there as well as in real life, but alas, there can be a peace only if all the relevant parties want it and sincerely try for it.

As SeanF said, the Blackfish's question was straight to the point and, more importantly, easy to anticipate. This tells me that Catelyn here lets her wishful thinking to dominate over her usual political and pragmatic self. She does put those attributes of hers in service of her speech, though.

I think that this is a character trait (a flaw, actually) that we should keep in mind for her most controversial action that is to come in the future.

[LordStoneheart]

Amazing work as always, ShadowCat!

Such a great way to end the "main" storyline of the first book. It's a hard chapter for me to reread because of the bleakness. It begins bleak, and does end uplifting, at least the first time around. Rereading this event with perspective gives such a hard choice about what has been done, what should have been done, and other options. Just as we talked about in Cat IX, Robb had already passed the point of no return. But now we have a change from Cat VIII where she claimed the only option was success on the battlefield. Eddard's death is the obvious catalyst for this change. Everything from that probably just piled up. If they would kill a highlord, what would they do to her daughters? Her sons and other family? The change was a powerful one and I am not sure that it can completely be described as idealistic... Perhaps there was a way for peace, or something near it.

Cat's northern identity has definitely become full circle for me. She is a Stark now "for true" just as she had been trying to do for Robb. On the matter of She-Wolves, it makes me quite anxious for the fourth Dunk and Egg story about the other widow Starks. I'm sure we're going to see some Catelyn parallels there if and when we get it.

[BearQueen87]

AGOT, Catelyn XI

Oh, Ned…

1) Excellent job as always ShadowCat Rivers!

2) This is one of my favorite GOT chapters. I get goosebumps every time I read it.

3) Moment of silence for Eddard Stark :'(

The chapter is roughly divided in four parts: the arrival to Riverrun, the meeting with Hoster, a brief interlude and then the council. Use of contrast is the dominant literary element.

The circumstances of her return to Riverrun are symmetrically opposite to those of her departure: young bride vs new widow, end vs start of a war, hope vs near despair.

The “inversed world” feeling is later made sharper by Lord Hoster’s condition: Now he is the one waiting and watching for Cat.

Also, the places they chose to sit on the boat --Robb in the bow, Catelyn toward the stern-- reflect the roles they chose to play in life.

This is a really nicely made point. And I'll point out that Cat is coming home but it's not the home she was heading for so long ago. She never made it back to WF. Her path keeps leading her away from that.

I think it's really interesting that Cat notices the rust on the gate as they enter. It's speaks to the fact that she returns home to find it not as she remembers. You hardly notice the rust and other things that need upkeep when you're mind is joyful (say when you're taking your newborn son north to see your husband) but when your heart is full of sadness, you notice all the little things. Cat even thinks that thoughts like these (replacing the rusted gate) are not far from her mind lately.

Catelyn’s arc is all the more related to Alyssa’s story and final curse. We see her repressing her need to mourn so that she can be strong and useful, but it takes a heavy toll on her. Poor Edmure receives some really undeserved snapping when he’s only trying to say something nice to her, but she is also too harsh on herself, blaming herself for the Catnapping and all the subsequent events. The gods are not spared either.

A blind rage filled her, a rage at all the world; at her brother Edmure and her sister Lysa, at the Lannisters, at the maesters, at Ned and her father and the monstrous gods who would take them both away from her.

Angry to the point of tears, and this brings to mind Alyssa Arryn and the Waterfall we discussed back when Cat was at the Vale

Once again, her arguments appeal mostly to the logic of her audience: futility and the future, the prospect of the living. While there is a lot of emotion in her speech, she tries to balance it out, as she wants her opinion to be heard and not dismissed as “woman’s weakness”. And she does succeed in making them listen, proving she’s quite good a speaker. Not a match to the Greatjon’s rhetorical prowess, though :).

The final part of her speech makes me think that it was inspired in the godswood.

One of the best speeches in GOT (and ranks up there in the entire series)

I think it's interesting that at this moment, Cat is seen as just a woman and the gentler sex, yet even just a chapter or two ago, the bannermen were looking to Cat to negotiate for them, to help council Robb. But now, when her view means "peace" instead of "war" she is just a woman who doesn't understand these things.

Greatjon gives a way out to the dilemma of which king to choose. His proposal seizes the feel of the moment: “foreign” kings have let them down and left them to fend for themselves. When this happens, people manage to answer to their needs on their own, the status quo is questioned and rejected as redundant and a dead weight.

It also highlights that the seven kingdoms had never been integrated into one, not really. Never has a separatist movement gained support if the feeling of being ethnically/culturally different is not deeply grounded into a certain population.

Does Cat still consider herself a foreigner? She began GOT by thinking about how strange the north is, how odd the godswood. But is she "one of them" now?

Just want to say that this re-read has been a lot of fun! Can't wait to start ACOK!

[SeanF]

The Greatjon's idea is not actually a bad one. With so many claimants to the Iron Throne, you can't give fealty to one, without being a traitor to the others.