Family, Duty, Honor: The Catelyn Re-read Project

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Great observations, BearQueen!

And I'll point out that Cat is coming home but it's not the home she was heading for so long ago. She never made it back to WF. Her path keeps leading her away from that.

I think it's really interesting that Cat notices the rust on the gate as they enter. It's speaks to the fact that she returns home to find it not as she remembers. You hardly notice the rust and other things that need upkeep when you're mind is joyful (say when you're taking your newborn son north to see your husband) but when your heart is full of sadness, you notice all the little things. Cat even thinks that thoughts like these (replacing the rusted gate) are not far from her mind lately.

You cannot step into the same river twice as they say, and you're right, home for her has been Winterfell for a long time now...

The rust on the gate also reminds me of Hoster.

I think it's interesting that at this moment, Cat is seen as just a woman and the gentler sex, yet even just a chapter or two ago, the bannermen were looking to Cat to negotiate for them, to help council Robb. But now, when her view means "peace" instead of "war" she is just a woman who doesn't understand these things.

Does Cat still consider herself a foreigner? She began GOT by thinking about how strange the north is, how odd the godswood. But is she "one of them" now?

I think that "woman" is the easy way to dismiss her idea without actually thinking of an argument to counter it. It is interesting that this is the "reasoning" of the Greatjon and Karstark, while Robb (to an extent) and (more importantly) Brynden put forth valid objections.

Cat is one of them, but in the same time she is the odd one out. But I think that being a woman, and a non-combatant at that, contribute more to her "oddness" than her origin.

Just want to say that this re-read has been a lot of fun! Can't wait to start ACOK!

Very glad you've enjoyed it! We are not the most on-schedule lot (well, we do better than our beloved writer) so thanks for the patience too :)

To ACOK :cheers:

The Greatjon's idea is not actually a bad one. With so many claimants to the Iron Throne, you can't give fealty to one, without being a traitor to the others.

I believe that the unification of westeros has been forced and, by large, achieved only on 'technical' level. So, the Greatjon's idea comes up as very natural...

But the problem is, the timing is not quite right - not if freeing your family members is indeed a priority. You cannot just c;lose the borders and let them come, you need to go on the offensive and this means that you need allies. The "King in the North" policy is not the best in this regard...

[SeanF]

Great observations, BearQueen!

You cannot step into the same river twice as they say, and you're right, home for her has been Winterfell for a long time now...

The rust on the gate also reminds me of Hoster.

I think that "woman" is the easy way to dismiss her idea without actually thinking of an argument to counter it. It is interesting that this is the "reasoning" of the Greatjon and Karstark, while Robb (to an extent) and (more importantly) Brynden put forth valid objections.

Cat is one of them, but in the same time she is the odd one out. But I think that being a woman, and a non-combatant at that, contribute more to her "oddness" than her origin.

Very glad you've enjoyed it! We are not the most on-schedule lot (well, we do better than our beloved writer) so thanks for the patience too :)

To ACOK :cheers:

I believe that the unification of westeros has been forced and, by large, achieved only on 'technical' level. So, the Greatjon's idea comes up as very natural...

But the problem is, the timing is not quite right - not if freeing your family members is indeed a priority. You cannot just c;lose the borders and let them come, you need to go on the offensive and this means that you need allies. The "King in the North" policy is not the best in this regard...

Maybe they should have just gathered every soldier they had and marched straight for Kings Landing. Tywin can then choose to fight or negotiate.

[Julia H.]

Great posts, as usual. Let me say that I'm especially glad to have read everyone's opinion / analysis about the options regarding war and peace that Robb had. On other threads I have read posts accusing Robb of selfishly causing the deaths of thousands of people by starting and / or continuing the war even after Eddard's death. I have always felt that making peace with the Lannisters was not necessarily a viable option (though I agree with Catelyn that it was desirable, and I admire her peace speech).

Actually Robb wants to do what is right, while other, more experienced men are trying to figure out what is practical. The King-in-the-North option seems to be a compromise between the practical and the right.

Congratulations and thanks to the team hosting this re-read. Thanks for all the thought-provoking analyses and the interesting observations. :bowdown: I look forward to the next book.

[SeanF]

IMHO Catelyn is right to want to prioritise getting her children out of Kings Landing, by means of a prisoner swap. An exchange of Jaime for Sansa/Arya (which will be discussed in the next chapter) would be a good one. Quite possibly, Tyrion and Cersei would have been prepared to do it regardless of Tywin's opinion, BUT Arya's disappearance would ruin everything.

How could Robb and Catelyn not assume that the Lannisters had Arya hidden away somewhere?

[Illuminated by Fire]

I am following the reread loosely and it was very interesting to read so far! Some observations I had (not very extensive, but many things have already been said):

I read the part about the rusted portcullis in the way that these thoughts are not far from her mind because she needs to keep functioning. In the last months Bran was nearly killed twice, her husband was executed, her daughters are hostages of the Lannisters. And now her father is dying. Then she blames herself for how the thing with Tyrion went down and now her son leads a warhost and is constantly in danger. The last thing you want in that situation is to think about things like defense preperations but she has to because the war will not pause because she needs time to grief. So all these things keep piling on and she has not even time to even begin to deal with these issues.

Regarding the council I think Stevron Frey's point was actually very good. Joffrey executed Eddard, Renly is not the heir no matter how you look at it and Stannis has not even declared yet. Biding their time and fortifying the Riverlands may have been the best option, especially when the political situation is that prone to change. This may have been the best chance for peace too, because whoever comes out on top may not have the resources or the morale of their troops to wage another war. But there are two problems with that: First you need to communicate that to your bannermen and then there is the risk that one party wins the war so decisively that you are in a worse position than before.

[MoseStark*]

Like I said before, brilliant reread.

Even though I'm not participating, I'm reading with much interest and looking forward to the next book.

However I wanted to share something that my eyes had fallen on upon reading this reread.

When Cat's arc starts in Winterfell, she is much more a Tully than a Stark. Winterfell is her house and her home, but in her heart she still is the Tully she was at Riverrun and I think her old memories of Riverrun are the memories of her real home, with her own brother and sister and her loving father.

When her journey starts, I think she is becoming more and more a Stark, when every single one of her Tully family members seem to have changed. Lysa has gone crazy, Hoster is sick and Edmure isn't as smart as she hoped he would be. When her journey in the first book ends in Riverrun, the illusion of the house in her childhood has changed. She sees the reality: a rusty castle and a sick father. At that moment, she is a Stark and her home is Winterfell.

I think it is interesting that in Winterfell, the house of the Starks, she still sees herself as a Tully, but when she is in Riverrun, she has become the Stark she wasn't fully in Winterfell. Her identity has changed during her journey, her illusions are gone and the only thing she wants is to go back to her life at Winterfell.

This wasn't something I had thought about before reading this topic and I just wanted to share it with you guys.

Keep op the good work :cheers:

[LordStoneheart]

AGOT Catelyn Retrospective

Cat I

Catelyn goes to the godswood to deliver her husband Eddard bad news and possibly good (the King’s arrival). They speak of a few family matters and Catelyn reflects on the differences of the Olds Gods and New and her struggle with her southern identity while being married to the north.

This chapter sets up Cat & Ned’s relationship and cultural differences that they share in their marriage. Also sets up Cat’s southern vs. northern identity right away.

Cat II

Catelyn and Eddard make love and reflect upon the stressful changing times. A rider in the night gives a secretive message from Cat’s sister Lysa. In it, she claims the Lannisters have murdered Jon Arryn. This motivates them into action, with Catelyn insisting that Ned must go to King’s Landing and find the truth. Ned leaves Cat in charge to help Robb learn to become Lord, and the two have a disagreement about Jon Snow.

This chapter really sets up the initial conflict of the first book, and the Cat/Jon issue.

Jon II

In the midst of saying his goodbyes to some of the family, Jon has a tense encounter with Cat in Bran’s sickroom. (Cat has been here for two weeks straight with not much food or water.) She tells him to leave twice but he insists on coming in. After he says goodbye to Bran, she has a strangely tender moment where she reveals how guilty she feels about praying for Bran to stay in Winterfell. Jon awkwardly tries to console her and Cat turns back to a cold persona, tells him “it should have been you” regarding Bran, and breaks down crying.

This chapter is a much-referenced center on the Cat/Jon issue. A useful analysis by butterbumps! can be found here.

Cat III

Catelyn continues to grieve at Bran's sickbed in almost a trance-like distraught state. During a tense talk with Maester Luwin and Robb, the library of Winterfell is set on fire. While the others rush out, Cat stays behind and has a violent run in with a would-be assassin. Bran's direwolf comes in and slays the man, after, Cat has a bit of a breakdown and is taken care of by the household.

When she awakens four days later, she feels an immense shame of her previous state and is determined to become strong again. Quickly she reverts to her shrewdly-thinking self and deduces that Jaime Lannister pushed Bran from the tower. Using the notable dagger as a starting point to gather evidence, Catelyn decides that she will go to King's Landing to inform and warn Ned.

This chapter expands on the theme of Catelyn's northern vs southern identities, with her symbolically accepting the North in the form of the direwolf and blood. She would show these northerners how strong a Tully of Riverrun could be.

Cat IV

Cat and Rodrick finish a long sea travel from White Harbor to King's Landing. They had hoped to travel in secret, but they find that they are expected by Lord Petyr "Littlefinger" Baelish and Lord Varys the Spider, Master of Whispers. After some deduction, Littlefinger gets Cat to admit the serious reason she has come to King’s Landing. When the dagger comes us, Littlefinger tells her it was his own, but had recently been lost to him in a tourney bet to Tyrion Lannister.

Cat is in a strange position of not knowing what to think of Petyr and how he’s changed, and being fooled into trusting him.

Eddard IV

Eddard arrives at the capital and after his first small council meeting, Littlefinger brings him to the brothel where Cat is hiding. Here they discuss the dagger and Littlefinger leads them into believing that Tyrion acted on the Queen’s orders. Ned tells Cat to return north and have them prepare for war.

Cat’s relationship with Littlefinger parallels Ned’s with Robert. Both pairs were raised as close as siblings but now after so many years the question of what kind of men they have become is quite disquieting. -(ShadowCatRivers)

Cat V

Cat and Rodrick travel north while trying to remain anonymous. After being passed unnoticed by Lord Jason Mallister, they decide staying at an inn is safe. Not long after, Tyrion Lannister and his party show up and Catelyn is noticed. Fearing the suspiciousness of her actions and keeping the possible crime Tyrion and the other Lannisters have committed, Catelyn calls for the riverland men to apprehend him to await the King’s justice.

A full analysis of the decision can be found here, thanks again to butterbumps!.

Tyrion IV

In the aftermath of the arrest, an enraged Tyrion finds he is actually being taken to the Vale. He tries to reason with Catelyn about his innocence, but she is adamant on seeing him as a liar. After some words about Littlefinger’s court reputation, she appears to be more susceptible to Tyrion’s replies, but the group is interrupted by the arrival of mountain clans. Tyrion convinces Cat to arm the Lannister men. The retinue defeats the attacks with a few casualties of their own. During the battle, Catelyn is noted as the first to react and opens a man’s throat with a dagger. Tyrion ends the chapter by insisting that he never bets against his family.

This is one of the few times we get to see Cat from another’s POV and it’s from a character who does not see her in a positive light at the time. Trust issues are in place here, with Tyrion’s attempts to convince Cat and her unwillingness to hear at first. As BastardlyRock noted, her declaration that she does not trust him anymore than she did before the battle could be wrong.

Cat VI

After another attack by the clans, Catelyn finishes the journey to the Eyrie and meets with her uncle Brynden Tully, Knight of the Gate. Her sister Lysa demands she make the journey past the Gates of the Moon as soon as possible. With the help of a bastard daughter of Robert’s, Mya Stone, Catelyn is helped up the mountain. Brynden informs her that Lysa is unstable and Catelyn finds this out when they meet. Lysa is erratic, overprotective of her son, and refuses to hear Cat’s counsel or explanations. She suggests to Robert that they might execute the Imp through the

The political themes turn up in this chapter, with the introduction of Blackfish, the concerns of Riverrun from retaliation from the Lannisters, the messy state of the Eyrie following Jon Arryn’s death and his son’s sickly, bratty manner. Catelyn reflects on the ramifications of her actions, but stays resolute in seeing them through.

Tyrion V

During a terrible few nights in a torturous skycell, Tyrion hatches a ploy to get an audience with Lysa and demands a trial by combat. His anger has shifted from Catelyn to Mord, Lysa, and Robert. Of note, Cat is the voice of reason against Lysa’s overreactions and appears to be the only one who sees through Tyrion’s ploy.

The gods only know what might have happened then were it not for Catelyn Stark. "Sister," she called out from where she stood below the thrones, "I beg you to remember, this man is my prisoner. I will not have him harmed."

Cat VII

Catelyn watches Alyssa’s Tears and contemplates her own mortality. Word from Riverrun has come in, but Lysa has withheld it from her. Blackfish resigns his post, angered at Lysa’s refusal to aid the Riverlands, and heads west to do so. Catelyn goes the Eyrie’s godswood where the trial will take place. She tries to talk some sense into Lysa, but her sister is too arrogant and caught up in the pageantry to hear it.

The battle begins and through Catelyn’s eyes we watch both this fight and the duel between Brandon and Petyr from years ago. Vardis is overtaken by Bronn’s fast-paced style, and with help from the statue of Alyssa Arryn, Bronn pins Vardis and slays him, earning Tyrion his freedom.

Themes explored here are Catelyn’s grief and mortality, the building tensions between the west and the Riverlands, the frivolity/mummer’s farce that trials can be, the memories of Brandon and Petyr, and briefly, the value of women’s opinions (Catelyn is the only one to voice doubt of Vardis’ success but is brushed off because of her gender).

Cat VIII

Catelyn and Rodrick go to Moat Cailan after learning that Robb has called the Northern banners and marched south. Though she mentions sending Robb back to Winterfell, she allows him to stay to keep the respect of his lords and decides to stay and council him as best she can.

This chapter explores two sides to Catelyn; her role as Lady of Winterfell teaching her son as a Lord, just as Eddard wanted, and her maternal instincts of wanting to keep Robb safe and see him as her child, not a man leading a war march. Catelyn’s wits are on display here as she subtly guides Robb.

Cat IX

The host approaches the Twins, seat of House Frey. They are unsure of what to do since the Freys haven’t appeared to make any committing moves for one side or the other. When they reach the castle, Catelyn offers to speak to Walder herself. During the audience, Walder speaks defends his inaction as a way to remain neutral with his oaths to House Tully and the Crown. Catelyn is able to convince him to hear her out, and they begin haggling. (Notably, we don’t see the negotiations on stage, we only hear about them when Cat brings them to Robb.) The Stark force is allowed to cross with the understanding that Robb will marry a Frey girl, Arya a Frey boy, Cat will take on two wards at Winterfell, and Olyvar will serve as Robb’s personal squire. Robb agrees to the terms and the armies cross. Catelyn notes at the end that this is the point of no return. For good or ill, her son had thrown the dice. (Compare with the Roman phrase alea iacta est)

We see Catelyn’s internal fears about the whole situation, and the brave “Stark” face she puts on to stay strong for Robb. Catelyn not only dons a brave face, but also a courteous one for her negotiations with the peevish Lord Walder. Meanwhile, Robb grows into his role as the commander and stand-in liege lord for the men while still retaining a few childish traits. The contrast between Robb the Boy, and Robb the Lord is made many times, most notably in his agreement with Walder’s terms. Though Catelyn is trying her best to give Robb good advice, in her thought she gives Ned the credit of teaching him.

Cat X

Catelyn waits behind as the battle later known as Whispering Wood begins. She is close enough to hear the fighting, though she is heavily guarded. The result is a good victory for the Starks, and the defeat and capture of Ser Jaime Lannister. Many celebrate, but Catelyn reminds them that the conflict is far from over. Robb ends the chapter by mentioning Riverrun still needs help.

The big theme for Catelyn in this chapter appears to be waiting. She has waited for men to return to her most of her life. Hoster, Brandon, Ned, and now Robb. Her waiting is described as a vigil. It shows us what some of the limits in her life have been because of her gender. The biggest difference is that now it’s a mother waiting for a child. For being the “big” battle of the first book, it being given it through Catelyn’s eyes could intentionally be part of GRRM’s aim of creating a fantasy mother figure who is on stage for us to see.

Cat XI

Catelyn arrives at Riverrun by boat. It is her first chapter in the aftermath of Ned’s death. Riverrun is freed from the siege and Cat’s younger brother Edmure rescued from the Lannisters. Catelyn goes to her father Hoster Tully’s sick bed and tells him of the battle. Afterward, Cat finds Robb in the godswood praying with the other northern lords. While she waits, she reminisces on her childhood with Lysa and Petyr.

A war council is called forth after the news of Renly Baratheon declaring himself king. Many different opinions about what to do next are put on the table. The succession is a big issue, with Robb set on vengeance against Joffrey but not knowing what to do about Stannis and Renly’s claims. Catelyn speaks up and offers a peace, an unpopular option that’s dismissed by some because she’s a woman and others pointing out that peace would be hard to return to after the Lannisters’ terrorism in the Riverlands.

Catelyn laments to herself that her plea for peace was lost. Greatjob Umber jumps up and makes a fateful speech. He rejects both Baratheon brothers as kings, and says the North should rule itself. He points his sword at Robb and declares him the only king he will bow to; The King in the North. The other lords join in and declare Robb their king.

Many themes are touched on in this chapter. Catelyn’s previous association with Alyssa Arryn was about grief, and here Catelyn is doing the same thing; trying to repress her grief to stay strong which in turn causes her to lash out at Edmure. I want to go home, my lords, and weep for my husband.”

The theme of waiting does a reversal from the previous chapter. In the past, Hoster left behind his “little cat” while she waited and watched, and now here in his sick bed he was the one waiting, watching from the battlements of the gatehouse.

Catelyn’s religious identity is touched on again, with this thought: She asked herself what gods she kept these days, and could not find an answer. Catelyn’s story began in a godswood, thinking of how strange the northern religion was compared to her faith in the seven. As the story progressed, she “became more northern” in thoughts and spoken words, and the connections with the direwolves. Now she’s having a moment of religious doubt where she doesn’t know which gods are here.

Peace is touched upon for a moment during the war council. Catelyn advocates that she does not want any more war now that Ned is gone. She only wants her family safe back at Winterfell, so they can go on with their lives and she can mourn for Ned. Her efforts are rejected by the other Northerners. (We later learn from the Rat Cook story that revenge can be a value or “god-given right” in the north.) We’ve discussed whether or not this peace Catelyn suggests is possible, and like many of the ideas put forth in the series, it might ride the line between idealism and reality.

One last theme that was interesting to this chapter was a parallel to the chapters right before and after (Jon IX, Daenerys X) It’s a theme of old forces stirring again, the past repeating/coming back,. Compare this line in Catelyn XI :

yet Catelyn watched them rise and draw their blades, bending their knees and shouting the old worlds that had not been heard in the realm for more than three hundred years, since Aegon the Dragon had come to make the Seven Kingdoms one…

To the last line in the book, Daenerys X:

and for the first time in hundreds of years, the night came alive with the music of dragons.

[BearQueen87]

Lord Stoneheart I want to comment on the retrospective more (when there isn't an important football game on...and my team isn't losing) but just real quick: brava! Well done! *applause*

Really, that was a nice look back on everything we've talked about since the re-read began. For me, one of the biggest themes I am taking away from AGOT and Cat POVs/appearances is the idea of Cat as the Thinker. I've really started noticing how often GRRM uses that word when it comes to Cat.

Cant' wait for ACOK!

[Tamlin Stark]

I am a bit late in coming to this thread, I hope it’s not too late to comment on ShadowCat Rivers and aje12 discussion on Jon and his mother in regards to Cat.
We see that Cat centers her negative feelings toward Jon and not Ned, but Jon does the same. For example he sees Cat as the one responsible when he sits at the feast when Robert arrives. But that is not the case, because Ned has the last say. In fact Cat is not responsible in matters concerning Jon. Ned has the only say, I believe.

[MissMatchedEyes]

I just want to say that I have really enjoyed this reread. Thanks for starting it LordStoneheart, No other comments, just keep up the good work!

[LordStoneheart]

I just want to say that I have really enjoyed this reread. Thanks for starting it LordStoneheart, No other comments, just keep up the good work!

Thanks for reading!

I am a bit late in coming to this thread, I hope it’s not too late to comment on ShadowCat Rivers and aje12 discussion on Jon and his mother in regards to Cat.

We see that Cat centers her negative feelings toward Jon and not Ned, but Jon does the same. For example he sees Cat as the one responsible when he sits at the feast when Robert arrives. But that is not the case, because Ned has the last say. In fact Cat is not responsible in matters concerning Jon. Ned has the only say, I believe.

I'm sure we can touch on it a little. I definitely agree that it was easier for Catelyn and Jon both to blame each other and not Ned since they both loved him.

[BastardlyRock]

Very well done retrospective LordStoneheart :cheers: I'm in awe of what we've managed to glean from these chapters; I'm eagerly blowing the dust off my copy of ACoK in anticipation of what's to come.

I just wanted to offer up my gratitude for all of the amazing insight that's been shared here, I'm always humbled to read so many of your thoughts, old timers and newcomers alike. We've really breathed new life into Cat (almost as well as Beric, but not quite).

[Lady of the Falls]

Chapter 1:

I found Cat in this chapter to be awesome, I felt she had great insight when she thought of the stag and direwolf sensing the foreshadowing and symbolism applying that to the kings visit. She did seem more willing to believe in things that haven't bin seen for 8000 years, then Ned was. Thoughtful when it came to Ned and his heart tree and knowing he's cleansing himself after he takes a life. I loved her and Ned's relationship it gave me the feeling of oneness. Especially compared to many others. I like her POV very entertaining and knowledgeable you get a lot of history in this chapter. Also she really believed and knew the Heart tree was watching her. She's off to a good start.

[Lady of the Falls]

Chapter 2:

I thought Cat was very thoughtful and smart in this chapter getting Ned to see he had to go to KL even though I know she dreaded it especially after the Direwolf / Stag omen. The chink in her armor though, for me she lost a little shine, when it came to Jon Snow I understand she's sour about him being "Ned's" bastard but it's a bit much after she already had 5 of his kids and watched him grow up with her kids and the love they shared he didn't asked to be born or brought to WF. Jon never put himself in league w/her children example the keeping of the wolves I know someone told her the story, she knew all the rest that happened. He also volunteered to join the NW so he had no desire to scheme WF out of his "siblings" hands. I found this point to be in conflict w/ everything else about her. Ned and her were so in tune to each other her not being able to forgive him this one thing she says, to me that's the reason to forgive it. It really was one thing. She was understanding that it happened, but so mad that he chose to raise him, which is admirable to me, I find that more descent than the way the King deals w/ most of his. As POV's I think her and Brienne are the strongest, intresting women role models. I like Arya to very grown for a child.

[Lady of the Falls]

Jon's Chapter 2

I understand her being stuck and grief stricken there's not one mother if it actually not hypothetically happened to their child would be in the same state. Her saying it should have bin you to Jon tho was down right awful. Now that I couldn't do in her shoes. No one want their children hurt. Or to wish it on anyone else if so, that really is evilness imo.