Family, Duty, Honor: The Catelyn Re-read Project

[BastardlyRock]

I think a large part of this conversation and why it's so interesting to go back and re-read is Cat, while coming across as cruel to Ned, doesn't know everything and Ned is forgetting that. I'm going to go ahead and assume RLJ for this. Cat doesn't know that Jon is not Ned's bastard and that Ned has been working for the past 14 years to keep Lyanna's son by Rhaegar safe. Now, I go back and forth a lot about what Cat would have done if she knew about RLJ; I still think she'd want Jon out of the way to safeguard Robb's right to WF. I've always thought that Ned, who Cat says has the fury on him during the last moments of this conversation before Luwin jumps in, was about to say something he might regret later. His "He is only a boy. He--" is a buildup to telling Cat who Jon is because "he might have said more, and worse, but Maester Luwin cut in." I think we're supposed to recognize that while they are the atypical marriage in Westeros and deeply in love and partners in almost all ways, there is a secret between them that can never be spoken. But unlike with Robert and Cersei, it's not Cersei's secret...it's Ned's. Another point of comparison.

Awesome point! I don't know if it had been pointed out before but I'd never recognized the significance of the quote in terms of RLJ before. The parallels between the Robert/Cersei and Ned/Cat are also very illuminating. Funny that Cersei's secret is more to keep herself and her children safe, while Ned's secret is not only to keep Jon safe, but Cat too... Excellent points all :cheers:

The second misconception regarding this chapter is that Catelyn drove Jon to NW. Although she certainly didn't want him in Winterfell with Ned gone, the decision about Jon going to Wall, not only that wasn't hers, but was made before this chapter. And, even more, it was made by Jon. So, to say that Cat drove Jon away would be a huge mistake. Jon went because he wanted to progress and the enforced system in Westeros didn't allow him that. Wall did. The chance of raising high on Wall is what made it a good choice in Jon's eyes... We can't put that on Catelyn as much as we can't put that on Robb becoming Lord of Winterfell.

Incredibly fair point, and I would expect no less :D - The fact that the Starks have manned the Wall for a thousand years, coupled with the realistic expectations a bastard can hope to achieve make for a very difficult case in persecuting Cat in this regard. And as we pointed out, Cat never said he had to take the black, only that he should no longer stay in Winterfell...

The posters running this reread certainly picked the right name for it. Family, Duty Honor. Those three words (and very emphatically in that order) are the key to understanding Cat. Family comes first. It's her greatest strength and her greatest weakness. Her greatest mistakes will come from trusting family members (as we see here with Lysa) or those she considers family members (Littlefinger) too much.

:cheers: You're dead-on here, and I think that's why there are so many misconceptions about Cat. Her actions are entirely understandable from the standpoint of a mother and a protector. Once her family is secure she seeks to fulfill her fealty, but accordingly, it is only in doing so that she honors her family and further seeks to protect and provide for them.

On Cat’s and Ned’s relationship: Their marriage and family is the closest thing we get to our own notions of marriage and family. There is love, respect, partnership, care for their children, care for each other’s feelings, emotional support… This is, perhaps, a reason that the readers love the Starks so much. With all the virtues and their flaws, while they are consistent to the setting of the story (feudal and patriarchal society with everything this entails) we can still recognize in them the familiar relationships we are used to. In a way, naïve and sheltered as they are in the start of the story, they enter this adventure as “naked” and unprepared as we do. Winter is coming are the Stark words, but ironically the Starks, Catelyn included even though she’s more savvy than Ned, are patently Sweet summer children…

Excellent. And your point about us as readers identifying with them first is absolutely right. As we all know, that naivety cost them dearly, on several occasions.

There are two shadows between them, Brandon's shadow and the shadow of Jon Snow's mother. At first glance, it may seem that neither of them can get over the other one's "first love", but, of course, the real issues are completely different. Brandon is not only Catelyn's first husband-to-be, but also Ned's older brother, whose death gave Ned everything his life is based on now; and Jon Snow's mother – that's an even more complicated shadow.

As we find out more about their lives and the problems they struggle with, their love for each other, their "imperfect" happiness and true partnership seem even more valuable.

Precisely. And as we've been discussing, at first their marriage seems entirely too idealistic, especially for a "medieval-marriage." As the plot thickens, so to speak, we realize there is a great depth and history to this romance, and not everything is as it seems. These two "shadows" are key to understanding the underlying complications of their marriage, and ultimately, their significance is key to unlocking the biggest secrets of the series.

I think this chapter is interesting, because it shows Catelyn in so many roles. Of course, at first, she is the lover, having just had sex with her beloved. Then, she is the wife, contemplating her husband and his castle. Next, she is the advisor, the one Ned discusses politics with. Then she is the sister, remembering her private language with Lysa. Next comes the mother, thinking about her children and how much she will miss them. And finally, the lady, who makes it clear that Jon Snow will not be welcome in the castle if Ned isn't there. She is all of those, and I think it's really interesting how that works together. She wants the best for her daughters and husband (mother and wife) but at the same time she wants them to go south because she realises how it will look like if they don't go (advisor). She doesn't simply stay in the trope of the mother, who seldomly is allowed to remember having been a child, she goes out and is way more.

For one, this passage shows Catelyn's confidence and how comfortable she is in her body, as others have noted. I also think it shows just how much the Starks value and trust Maester Luwin. There is no question for Catelyn that Luwin has to stay, and she is not ashamed of showing herself naked in front of him, even though Luwin, of course, averts his eyes.

:cheers: I love the way you broke her down into the several different roles she fulfills, she really is all those things and more. You're point about Maester Luwin is fantastic is well. It illustrates how well trusted he is by the Stark family, and how humble (is that even the right word?) he is. A truly fantastic character.

- This scene, to me, links Arya and Catelyn, as well as Ned and Sansa to a lesser extent, something that becomes more pronounced later in the books. While Catelyn from the outside acts like the perfect lady this seems to be a conscious adaption of social rules. Her "real self" is far more pragmatic. Her argumentation that Luwin has been with her during every birth and seen everything that is to see of her body is actually quite logical yet I am sure Septa Mordane would be deeply shocked by this sentiment. Ned on the other hand is the one far more affected by social conventions of proper female behavior here. This scene always made we wonder how Arya would have turned out if she was the eldest and had been forced into a more responsible role early on.

Yes! I was reminded several times of how much Cat embodies both of her daughters during this chapter. It's as if Arya took all of her fieriness and Sansa took all of her careful consideration. Together they make one fierce woman ;)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Awesome point! I don't know if it had been pointed out before but I'd never recognized the significance of the quote in terms of RLJ before. The parallels between the Robert/Cersei and Ned/Cat are also very illuminating. Funny that Cersei's secret is more to keep herself and her children safe, while Ned's secret is not only to keep Jon safe, but Cat too... Excellent points all :cheers:

I wouldn't be so sure about only Jon and Cat being protected. Remember who is Ned protecting Jon from. The guy who hates everything about Rhaegar and in Jon's case, he's not only Rhaegar's son, but his son via Lyanna. If Robert finds out that Ned was hiding him, his fury would know no match. He would feel betrayed and would probably demand Jon's life after Ned's head.

But, yes. They both are hiding children from Robert, and coincidentally, those children were of a sibling. Cersei's are bastards being passed as Princes, Jon is a Prince being passed as a bastard.

[ARYa_Nym]

Yes! I was reminded several times of how much Cat embodies both of her daughters during this chapter. It's as if Arya took all of her fieriness and Sansa took all of her careful consideration. Together they make one fierce woman ;)

I personally don't find Cat to be fiery except when she makes rash decisions but I do understand why she can be called that. Although she does make plans so I wouldn't say she's as impulsive as presented. She comes off like an ice queen to me.

I also think while she may seem volatile and will tough talk a lot but when she was around Jamie and Tyrion she did nothing to them. She was able to restrain herself in order to help her family but that could tie into what you said about careful consideration. So essentially on the idea of her being quick tempered which a fiery person would be I don't think she'll do anything. I think she just talks about vengeance but when tested her actions reflected diplomacy and restraint more. She didn't act like Rickard Karstark. That only comes when she is LS but I'm not sure if she's able to actually feel anger and is just fixated by her last actions when she was alive.

Moving on... She has no friends besides LF who wasn't even a true friend and probably hated her by AGoT. The Northmen seem to respect her but do not love or particularly like her like they did Robb and Ned. I don't see her as some big personality who easily makes friends like Brandon Stark was who may have had a fiery personality. Since trout is her sigil being a cold fish would actually fit. She shows her emotions though but doesn't seem friendly. Arya is now someone who can mask her emotions but is friendly to a point . She'd just as easily kill you as she would be nice to you if she is given a motive. She easily made friends in Braavos. ETA: As an example when she was able to coldly detach emotion in ACoK and deduce whether or not she could successfully kill Gendry and get away with it and it was also her immediate solution instead of something less cold and fatal.

Anyways, Theon thought Cat was colder than Ned. Jon thought she was like Stannis. Between the two I think Ned is more likely to be warm and inviting and she is more standoff ish.

Arya I don't see as fiery either but in a different way to Cat which is part nature/nurture. You have to be extremely cold in order to kill someone and have no remorse. In her latest chapter especially there is no fire there. She is emotionally detached, calculating, and predatory. It's also possible to be impulsive in a cold way-Dareon, wanting to kill guards for no reason (there was no emotional connection in that).

As for before I think Cat does care about convention but the quotes come later. Every time she comes across an unconventional woman there's evidence of her finding them strange and she showed appreciation for the one who could present herself as normal as well-Dacey.

[aje12]

I personally don't find Cat to be fiery except when she makes rash decisions but I do understand why she can be called that. Although she does make plans so I wouldn't say she's as impulsive as presented. She comes off like an ice queen to me.

I also think while she may seem volatile and will tough talk a lot but when she was around Jamie and Tyrion she did nothing to them. She was able to restrain herself in order to help her family but that could tie into what you said about careful consideration. So essentially on the idea of her being quick temper I don't think she'll do anything. That only comes when she is LS but I'm not sure if she's able to actually feel anger and is just fixated by her last actions when she was alive.

Moving on... She has no friends besides LF who wasn't even a true friend and probably hated her by AGoT. The Northmen seem to respect her but do not love or particularly like her like they did Robb and Ned. I don't see her as some big personality who easily makes friends like Brandon Stark was who may have had a fiery personality. Since trout is her sigil being a cold fish would actually fit. She shows her emotions though but doesn't seem friendly. Arya is now someone who can mask her emotions but is friendly to a point . She'd just as easily kill you as she would be nice to you if she is given a motive. She easily made friends in Braavos. ETA: As an example when she was able to coldly detach emotion in ACoK and deduce whether or not she could successfully kill Gendry and get away with it and it was also her immediate solution instead of something less cold and fatal.

Anyways, Theon thought Cat was colder than Ned. Jon thought she was like Stannis. Between the two I think Ned is more likely to be warm and inviting and she is more standoff ish.

Arya I don't see as fiery either but in a different way to Cat which is part nature/nurture. You have to be extremely cold in order to kill someone and have no remorse. In her latest chapter especially there is no fire there. She is emotionally detached, calculating, and predatory. It's also possible to be impulsive in a cold way-Dareon, wanting to kill guards for no reason (there was no emotional connection in that).

As for before I think Cat does care about convention but the quotes come later. Every time she comes across an unconventional woman there's evidence of her finding them strange and she showed appreciation for the one who could present herself as normal as well-Dacey.

Cat is fiery in that she's opinionated, passionate, and determined to the point of stubborness. But she is also in control of her emotions, being a highborn lady. She has the potential to be cold to people, in very specific circumstances where she sees threats to her family (i.e. with Jon and Theon) but I don't know how you can call her an ice queen with the amount of warmth she displays towards those she loves. Catelyn doesn't just love her family, she loves them fiercely; it defines her as a person. Also with Catelyn being 'colder' to Theon than Ned, it may have had something to do with the inbuilt distrust Riverlanders have for the Ironborn (justified distrust considering they pillaged and raped throughout the Riverlands for thousands of years). Catelyn was likely raised from birth to distrust an ironborn. No one else thinks of Catelyn as cold but theon and jon.

Catelyn had many of vengeful thoughts and impulses when she was still alive, as we will see in later analyses, but she knew logically that seeking vengeance is a futile pursuit and she could not risk harm to her daughters in the clutch of the lannisters. This furthers Arya's similarities to her mother; while Sansa or Ned are more merciful than vengeful, Arya and Catelyn both hate those who harm the one's they love. Not sure what point your making by saying Catelyn had no friends. Where is your evidence and how is it relevant?

People aren't saying Catelyn is some radical feminist; she recognizes the importance of following conventions in fitting into one's role in society but she is too practical observe convention she doesn't deem necessary. She would certainly hold that a highborn woman should dress a certain way, but unlike many ladies she dresses relatively plainly, in warm dresses.

[ARYa_Nym]

Cat is fiery in that she's opinionated, passionate, and determined to the point of stubborness. But she is also in control of her emotions, being a highborn lady. She has the potential to be cold to people, in very specific circumstances where she sees threats to her family (i.e. with Jon and Theon) but I don't know how you can call her an ice queen with the amount of warmth she displays towards those she loves. Catelyn doesn't just love her family, she loves them fiercely; it defines her as a person. Also with Catelyn being 'colder' to Theon than Ned, it may have had something to do with the inbuilt distrust Riverlanders have for the Ironborn (justified distrust considering they pillaged and raped throughout the Riverlands for thousands of years). Catelyn was likely raised from birth to distrust an ironborn. No one else thinks of Catelyn as cold but theon and jon.

Because I see her warmth being extended to a strict set of people but in general I don't find her to be warm. I think Ned is more likely to be warm to people who aren't restricted to the nuclear family. & I find her interactions with Mya and Brienne respectful not warm and the latter ended badly.

Like in another thread someone was arguing that Theon is a compassionate person. I see Jeyne as the only example so I wouldn't describe him as a compassionate person just because he has moments where he is capable of it.

No one else calls her cold but we do have people thinking she is cold. By the same thought that no one else besides them call her cold no one is calling her warm.

Catelyn had many of vengeful thoughts and impulses when she was still alive, as we will see in later analyses, but she knew logically that seeking vengeance is a futile pursuit and she could not risk harm to her daughters in the clutch of the lannisters. This furthers Arya's similarities to her mother; while Sansa or Ned are more merciful than vengeful, Arya and Catelyn both hate those who harm the one's they love. Not sure what point your making by saying Catelyn had no friends. Where is your evidence and how is it relevant?

She didn't even have to kill Jamie or Tyrion ETA: That wouldn't help her goals.

She could have at least beaten Jamie or have gotten creative in a way that wouldn't do lasting harm if she was so quick tempered and violent while he was restrained. However, all she did was think what a bad person he was, allowed him to be extremely insulting, and then she released him.

There's no mention of friends besides LF. I mentioned that because I don't see her as a friendly person who is lively, easy going, or fun to be around. She seems more serious to me.

By ice queen I meant that she seems standoff ish and frigid (when she's around those she's not related to besides the adult version of Lysa although Lysa is much worse in turn to her) not that she's a bitch which Cat does often get accused of.

People aren't saying Catelyn is some radical feminist; she recognizes the importance of following conventions in fitting into one's role in society but she is too practical observe convention she doesn't deem necessary. She would certainly hold that a highborn woman should dress a certain way, but unlike many ladies she dresses relatively plainly, in warm dresses.

I didn't say that anyone thought she was a feminist just that when she is around unconventional women she finds them strange so I don't really see her as someone who would want to be like say Brienne it's just that society doesn't let her. She doesn't understand their abnormal behavior and expressed appreciation with one who could be normal.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

@ARYa_Nym and aje12

You both make interesting observations about Cat's personality. But please, don't take the discussion too far from the current chapter.

Keep a note of your points so we can discuss it more in depth when we get there :)

There's no mention of friends besides LF. I mentioned that because I don't see her as a friendly person who is lively, easy going, or fun to be around. She seems more serious to me.

This is something of notice in the first two chapters. Except for her family, there are no other companions for Catelyn as we see with the Tyrell women for examble. I think it adds to the "foreigner" feeling.

[ARYa_Nym]

@ARYa_Nym and aje12

You both make interesting observations about Cat's personality. But please, don't take the discussion too far from the current chapter.

Keep a note of your points so we can discuss it more in depth when we get there :)

This is something of notice in the first two chapters. Except for her family, there are no other companions for Catelyn as we see with the Tyrell women for examble. I think it adds to the "foreigner" feeling.

Sorry, :)

Yes, you know if she had a friend it would have made sense to have her or him around as a companion for comfort after Ned died. ETA: Possibly even earlier than that with Bran's two incidents. She was under serious stress then.

Or at least write a letter about it.

It doesn't even have to be solely for negative events. She was happy about Sansa's engagement. Surely that is something to tell a friend.

[The Storm Queen]

I personally don't find Cat to be fiery except when she makes rash decisions but I do understand why she can be called that. Although she does make plans so I wouldn't say she's as impulsive as presented. She comes off like an ice queen to me.

I also think while she may seem volatile and will tough talk a lot but when she was around Jamie and Tyrion she did nothing to them. She was able to restrain herself in order to help her family but that could tie into what you said about careful consideration. So essentially on the idea of her being quick tempered which a fiery person would be I don't think she'll do anything. I think she just talks about vengeance but when tested her actions reflected diplomacy and restraint more. She didn't act like Rickard Karstark. That only comes when she is LS but I'm not sure if she's able to actually feel anger and is just fixated by her last actions when she was alive.

Moving on... She has no friends besides LF who wasn't even a true friend and probably hated her by AGoT. The Northmen seem to respect her but do not love or particularly like her like they did Robb and Ned. I don't see her as some big personality who easily makes friends like Brandon Stark was who may have had a fiery personality. Since trout is her sigil being a cold fish would actually fit. She shows her emotions though but doesn't seem friendly. Arya is now someone who can mask her emotions but is friendly to a point . She'd just as easily kill you as she would be nice to you if she is given a motive. She easily made friends in Braavos. ETA: As an example when she was able to coldly detach emotion in ACoK and deduce whether or not she could successfully kill Gendry and get away with it and it was also her immediate solution instead of something less cold and fatal.

Anyways, Theon thought Cat was colder than Ned. Jon thought she was like Stannis. Between the two I think Ned is more likely to be warm and inviting and she is more standoff ish.

Arya I don't see as fiery either but in a different way to Cat which is part nature/nurture. You have to be extremely cold in order to kill someone and have no remorse. In her latest chapter especially there is no fire there. She is emotionally detached, calculating, and predatory. It's also possible to be impulsive in a cold way-Dareon, wanting to kill guards for no reason (there was no emotional connection in that).

As for before I think Cat does care about convention but the quotes come later. Every time she comes across an unconventional woman there's evidence of her finding them strange and she showed appreciation for the one who could present herself as normal as well-Dacey.

before I reply to your points, one general observation: ASoIaF is no faithful chronicle of the daily life of these characters but follows the rules of literature and entertainment. If these POVs were really 100 percent real life we would get aGoT were Ned would spend most of time thinking about his dying/crippled son Bran. Obviously he doesn't but can we thus infer that he does not love him? of course not, but if Martin filled 90% of his POVs with grief and fear readers would get bored fast. The same applies to Cat's social life, we simply don't know too much about it.

Besides, friendship as a social concept in Westeros cannot work the same way as it does in our world because most of the time there is an element of hierarchy and subordination in social interactions. For example, Ned's bannermen like him but is he really friends with them?

Having said that, I think it is actually astonishing how well-liked Catelyn is given that she has no birth ties to the North and recent North history has shown a North-South marriage gone horribly wrong (Jorah Mormont!) I do not want to go too far but just remember how for example Mage Mormont hugs her and how no one really objects to her being present at war councils. Cat's memories from her wedding and bedding also do not sound too ice queeny for me.

The only negative descriptions we get about her are from Jon and Theon, however both are hardly neutral or astute judges of character as has been shown in the story quite often

[ARYa_Nym]

<snip>

Not objecting to her being at the war council I think is a measure of the respect she wields.

As I said it certainly could have been mentioned just as it was for various other characters and there were scenarios where a friend would have been appropriate from the very beginning starting with the events that happened during Robert's visit. The friend didn't even have to be present just a mention that she had a friend she could turn to when she was having a difficult time that isn't LF who we know wasn't really her friend at this point but she didn't. Or a friend that would be excited for her that her daughter will marry the next king. We know Sansa had her little group of friends.She like Ned has a hierarchy with her friends too but I think many would think Jeyne was actually her friend and not just her little minion. ETA: Oh, and he would have had more present had they not died at the ToJ. Arya would make friends with different types. Arianne Martell's friends were mentioned. We know Cersei killed her friend and wanted a new one in Taena who may or may not be spy.

There's also the Riverlands. There seems to be no visits from friends or a mention of former friends while she's there.

Coincidentally Lysa also has no mention of other friends besides LF. She only seems to care about him and SR.

[LordStoneheart]

ARYa, we can definitely talk about Cat's "ice queen" vs "fiery woman" personalities... after all, this is A Song of Ice and Fire. (I'd just like to give you a friendly reminder that we're going mostly sequential and trying not to look ahead too much, just as SCR said.) The dichotomy is interesting because we're for the most part in the Starks' heads and experiencing this world with them. We're there to see their personalities explored and they have our sympathies... but I'm reminded of the blurb on book one that calls the Starks "as harsh and unyielding as the land they were born to." Granted, Catelyn wasn't born to it, but one thing we're exploring is how the North has affected/is affecting her. Indeed, it we do have later references of people thinking Eddard is a cold man when going by his POV I'd consider him much less so.

Fun fact: I think my Lady is also mentioned in the book one blurb.

a determined woman undertakes the most treacherous journeys

further cementing my view that Catelyn is the true heroine in GRRM's eyes... :D I can dream...

[aje12]

further cementing my view that Catelyn is the true heroine in GRRM's eyes... :D I can dream...

Ha! even though he has never mentioned her amongst his favourites (tyrion arya jon dany) I just know intuitively that she is one of his favourites ;)

[The Storm Queen]

Not objecting to her being at the war council I think is a measure of the respect she wields.

As I said it certainly could have been mentioned just as it was for various other characters and there were scenarios where a friend would have been appropriate from the very beginning starting with the events that happened during Robert's visit. The friend didn't even have to be present just a mention that she had a friend she could turn to when she was having a difficult time that isn't LF who we know wasn't really her friend at this point but she didn't. We know Sansa had her little group of friends.She like Ned has a hierarchy with her friends too but I think many would think Jeyne was actually her friend and not just her little minion. ETA: Oh, and he would have had more present had they not died at the ToJ. Arya would make friends with different types. Arianne Martell's friends were mentioned. We know Cersei killed her friend and wanted a new one in Taena who may or may not be spy.

There's also the Riverlands. There seems to be no visits from friends or a mention of former friends while she's there.

Coincidentally Lysa also has no mention of other friends besides LF. She only seems to care about him and SR.

These are unmarried women who still live at their place of birth (at least at the time you discuss them) - just remember, when Catelyn comes back to the Riverlands she seems to be well-loved there, too. However, marriage in Westeros usually marks a big transition for the woman, with the exception of a first-born Dornish noblewoman. It means leaving your home and usually also your old friends behind while men are able to forge ties for a lifetime.

You also have to keep in mind that the Stark family line after the Rebellion is rather decimated: If Cat had married Brandon, Lyanna stayed alive and Ned married another woman there would be a bigger family and more ladies (Ned's wife, and later nieces and her sons' wives) at Winterfell to keep Catelyn company. This seems to be the way the Tyrell family functions, for example.

On the other hand, and I think this might be an oversight of George, it would be likely that many Northern families would send their daughters to Winterfell for a limited period, if only to introduce them to the Stark sons, to gain political favour or to allow them getting a more refined education.

[LordStoneheart]

aje12, I fully agree.

based on his interviews about that chapter he put off writing, I am most positive the reason was Cat more than Robb. :)

[ARYa_Nym]

These are unmarried women who still live at their place of birth (at least at the time you discuss them) - just remember, when Catelyn comes back to the Riverlands she seems to be well-loved there, too. However, marriage in Westeros usually marks a big transition for the woman, with the exception of a first-born Dornish noblewoman. It means leaving your home and usually also your old friends behind while men are able to forge ties for a lifetime.

You also have to keep in mind that the Stark family line after the Rebellion is rather decimated: If Cat had married Brandon, Lyanna stayed alive and Ned married another woman there would be a bigger family and more ladies (Ned's wife, and later nieces and her sons' wives) at Winterfell to keep Catelyn company. This seems to be the way the Tyrell family functions, for example.

On the other hand, and I think this might be an oversight of George, it would be likely that many Northern families would send their daughters to Winterfell for a limited period, if only to introduce them to the Stark sons, to gain political favour or to allow them getting a more refined education.

Her friends don't only have to be ladies. The only friend we know she has and the only friend mentioned from her former life is a man and lowborn at that. Arianne had male friends too, Asha likely only or mainly has male friends because of her lifestyle. Even so from the friends Sansa mentioned Arya having there were women around. ETA: Arya used to play with their children.

[The Storm Queen]

Her friends don't only have to be ladies. The only friend we know she has and the only friend mentioned from her former life is a man and lowborn at that. Arianne had male friends too, Asha likely only or mainly has male friends because of her lifestyle. Even so from the friends Sansa mentioned Arya having there were women around. ETA: Arya used to play with their children.

But surely for the married Lady of Winterfell other rules apply than for young Catelyn Tully? I'd argue that she has a really good and warm relationship with Maester Luwin, however there is a socially imposed limit on such relationsips - young Catelyn and Petyr could go out playing for hours, a married woman spending so much time with another man would have raised far more eyebrows at Winterfell!

I concede Asha however her lifestyle is extremly unusual and unconventional for a Westerosi lady and partially enabled by her father after he lost all of his sons. Arianne at last enjoys more freedom as a Dornish lady, however she is also still unmarried and after Myrcella debacle her father is pretty shocked about the things she was up to in her private life.

[ARYa_Nym]

But surely for the married Lady of Winterfell other rules apply than for young Catelyn Tully? I'd argue that she has a really good and warm relationship with Maester Luwin, however there is a socially imposed limit on such relationsips - young Catelyn and Petyr could go out playing for hours, a married woman spending so much time with another man would have raised far more eyebrows at Winterfell!

I concede Asha however her lifestyle is extremly unusual and unconventional for a Westerosi lady and partially enabled by her father after he lost all of his sons. Arianne at last enjoys more freedom as a Dornish lady, however she is also still unmarried and after Myrcella debacle her father is pretty shocked about the things she was up to in her private life.

She could have had more male friends than LF from before but nothing that indicates it. Lord Tully seemed overly permissive as well considering Lysa/LF. LF had access to her after the duel.

And as mentioned there were women around regardless of the male friend option. In addition we know that lords visited and an opportunity is there to be around women by simply making the request. Ned could have also brought Catelyn sometimes when he went to visit other lords.

But anyways, I don't want to derail anymore.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Shadows of the past & Jon Snow

It was all meant for Brandon

That brought a bitter twist to Ned’s mouth. “Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King’s Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me.”

Ned’s shadow has a name and a closure. Whatever Cat might have felt for him, it should be clear to Ned that it’s long over and she has moved on. I don’t think Ned’s bitterness is due to doubts about Cat’s love. I think that Jon’s musings over wanting Winterfell are more relevant:

Even to dream otherwise seemed disloyal, as if he were betraying them in his heart, wishing for their deaths. I never wanted this, he thought as he stood before the blue-eyed king and the red woman. I loved Robb, loved all of them... I never wanted any harm to come to any of them, but it did.

I can imagine that in moments of great happiness with his wife and children at their home, Brandon’s “ghost” would occasionally creep into Ned’s thoughts to remind him that he wouldn’t have any of this if not for Brandon’s death. Like Jon, he might feel –irrationally, but that’s how these things work…– that he is “betraying” his brother in his heart. That would stain his happiness, certainly, and I feel sorry for him too, but IMO it’s nothing compared to what Catelyn has been going through every single day.

Whoever Jon’s mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely

Cat’s shadow is nameless and faceless, though she sees her “ghost” everyday in Jon’s face.

[ Considering R+L=J, there’s some great irony here. Catelyn is spot on in that conclusion above and Jon looks indeed like his mother. But it’s maybe the only case I know of that the “it’s not what you think, darling” claim would be true… ]

Unlike Ned, Cat has never been given a closure for this past story that hurts her. More than that, it does not belong exclusively to the past, as its consequence –a child– is still and always affecting the present. Ned’s Other Woman is a significant presence in her thoughts throughout the entirety of Cat’s story and we’ll be discussing it as it unfolds. It is a complex situation with many aspects. I’ll try to address some that are present in this chapter.

1. Hurt pride

Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him “son” for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

That cut deep. […]

Bastards are not uncommon, but it’s one of those things that are usually hidden under the carpet, so to say. Ned admits that he dishonored himself and his wife by fathering one. In a world where a woman’s value (and even more a noble lady’s) is so tightly attached to producing heirs for the House, the existence of another acknowledged offspring would feel like depreciation. Adding to that the political importance of marriage, it also hits on the Tully honor factor.

Also, as Ned said to Arya “[…] and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon […]”, in their setting a woman’s ambitions are normally only to be accomplished indirectly through their sons. So there is also the constant element of “competition” as Robb and Jon grow up together. Jon was there first, it seems irrational and, well, it is, but I can understand how a woman in Cat’s place could feel defeated like finishing second.

2. Inheritance issues

And in time the boy would take the oath as well. He would father no sons who might someday contest with Catelyn’s own grandchildren for Winterfell.

This is a real potential threat, as we know from Westerosi history. The most rational and pragmatic reason for Cat’s chronic unease.

Noticeably, she does not worry about Jon himself but of his potential offspring. I mention this because Catelyn is often accused as irrational for not wanting Jon there by making the point that being close strengthens brotherly love and loyalty and diminishes the danger. True, but as generations pass the kinship bond loosens too – enough to render brotherly feelings irrelevant but not enough to weaken a blood claim.

In a culture where legacy matters a lot, it is not irrational that Cat feels threatened. But I keep wondering (that’s more for a future discussion) is it her own legacy she worries most about or does this one, too, comes back to the shadowy competition with Ned’s Other Woman?

3. Insecurity and the green-eyed monster

This is the crux of the matter, IMO. At the beginning yes, when Ned was really just a stranger who she had to marry out of duty, pride and inheritance might have weighted more. But then she came to love him with all her heart, that’s very important. Hurt pride can heal with time and as for inheritance problems, what is done is done, the potential threat is there no matter what and unless one is Cersei there’s not much to do about it proactively. But this one does not heal, nor can one learn to live with it.

Cat was denied an explanation that could put this shadow behind for good. Ned does not allow a word about her. Who was she? Is she still in his thoughts? Does he lament the fact that he had to marry Cat out of duty instead of his allegedly beloved one? Ned’s reaction to her questions and the way he treats Jon would point more to the answers that she fears. The Ashara rumors make it worse. As theBastardofCasterlyRock noted, this is an idealized version of Ashara while Cat is made of flesh and bones… how can she fight an ideal?

(In this, I see a reflection of Arya’s insecurities for her mother’s love and the impact of Sansa’s “perfection”. In her mind, her sister embodies the ideal of the perfect lady while she is far from perfect in this aspect. So how can she gain her mother’s love when she already has a perfect daughter who deserves all her attention?)

Cat is not even allowed to just push it aside, as Jon’s presence is a constant thorn.

She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned’s sake, so long as they were out of sight.

I don’t really believe this. If Ned had fathered them before their marriage, then maybe, but I don’t think she would be OK with infidelity. But I do think that it’s an exaggeration to point out how much Jon’s presence adds salt to the wound and doesn’t let it heal.

Cat deserved an answer. Ned believed he could not give it to her. I can’t judge him. But I can definitely sympathize with Cat’s feelings and find them totally understandable. It’s part of her tragedy.

[aje12]

3. Insecurity and the green-eyed monster

This is the crux of the matter, IMO. At the beginning yes, when Ned was really just a stranger who she had to marry out of duty, pride and inheritance might have weighted more. But then she came to love him with all her heart, that’s very important. Hurt pride can heal with time and as for inheritance problems, what is done is done, the potential threat is there no matter what and unless one is Cersei there’s not much to do about it proactively. But this one does not heal, nor can one learn to live with it.

Cat was denied an explanation that could put this shadow behind for good. Ned does not allow a word about her. Who was she? Is she still in his thoughts? Does he lament the fact that he had to marry Cat out of duty instead of his allegedly beloved one? Ned’s reaction to her questions and the way he treats Jon would point more to the answers that she fears. The Ashara rumors make it worse. As theBastardofCasterlyRock noted, this is an idealized version of Ashara while Cat is made of flesh and bones… how can she fight an ideal?

(In this, I see a reflection of Arya’s insecurities for her mother’s love and the impact of Sansa’s “perfection”. In her mind, her sister embodies the ideal of the perfect lady while she is far from perfect in this aspect. So how can she gain her mother’s love when she already has a perfect daughter who deserves all her attention?)

Cat is not even allowed to just push it aside, as Jon’s presence is a constant thorn.

She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned’s sake, so long as they were out of sight.

I don’t really believe this. If Ned had fathered them before their marriage, then maybe, but I don’t think she would be OK with infidelity. But I do think that it’s an exaggeration to point out how much Jon’s presence adds salt to the wound and doesn’t let it heal.

Cat deserved an answer. Ned believed he could not give it to her. I can’t judge him. But I can definitely sympathize with Cat’s feelings and find them totally understandable. It’s part of her tragedy.

I don't think it is stressed enough in Catelyn discussion how heartbreaking this would have been. I'm sure Catelyn had no doubt that Ned loved her deeply (and i can imagine ned would go out of his way to show what he would not say) but think of everytime he got in one of his melancholy moods; she must have thought he was thinking of Jon's mother. As to whether she thought she was second in his heart, this would have certainly been the case for the first few years of their marriage, she probably assumed after a while that he had moved on by the time we meet them, i mean she says ned must have 'loved' her fiercely, in the past tense. However Jon's continued presence certainly would not have helped this situation at all. The quote in this chapter where catelyn said nothing she could say would convince him to send Jon away suggests she asked quite a few times, probably over the years of their marriage.

Its sweet and sad that Catelyn loves Ned so much that this shadow, while feeding her own insecurities about whether he loves her more than the other woman, doesn't really diminish her love for him. Its true selfless love in this respect. the fact that he might hold another woman in his heart doesn't affect that she loves him with all her heart.

The real tragedy is that all of Catelyn's insecurities were for naught. The other woman was her sister in law. I sympathise for Ned in this regard as well, that he never felt he could tell her the truth, that she was the only woman he loved (despite believing he could have trusted her with the secret lol)

Even one of the most strong, loving relationships in the series is riddled with insecurities.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I don't think it is stressed enough in Catelyn discussion how heartbreaking this would have been. I'm sure Catelyn had no doubt that Ned loved her deeply (and i can imagine ned would go out of his way to show what he would not say) but think of everytime he got in one of his melancholy moods; she must have thought he was thinking of Jon's mother. As to whether she thought she was second in his heart, this would have certainly been the case for the first few years of their marriage, she probably assumed after a while that he had moved on by the time we meet them, i mean she says ned must have 'loved' her fiercely, in the past tense. However Jon's continued presence certainly would not have helped this situation at all. The quote in this chapter where catelyn said nothing she could say would convince him to send Jon away suggests she asked quite a few times, probably over the years of their marriage.

Its sweet and sad that Catelyn loves Ned so much that this shadow, while feeding her own insecurities about whether he loves her more than the other woman, doesn't really diminish her love for him. Its true selfless love in this respect. the fact that he might hold another woman in his heart doesn't affect that she loves him with all her heart.

The real tragedy is that all of Catelyn's insecurities were for naught. The other woman was her sister in law. I sympathise for Ned in this regard as well, that he never felt he could tell her the truth, that she was the only woman he loved (despite believing he could have trusted her with the secret lol)

Even one of the most strong, loving relationships in the series is riddled with insecurities.

I agree with everything.

I think it's clear, as you noted, that Cat's insecurities are not about whether Ned loves her at all or that he's never moved on... But the thing is, that story did not end 'normally'. It was rather cut off by a set of events that included Cat and Ned's marriage out of duty, and I think that Cat might feel that it's burried, but not dead (I don't know if it makes sense, but I can't express it any better).

Theirs is an arranged marriage that turned out the best way possible, but I think that there is more than mutual respect and spousal love that grows over time. It seems to me that Cat has fallen in love with Ned.

His words were like an icy draft through her heart. “No,” she said, suddenly afraid. Was this to be her punishment? Never to see his face again, nor to feel his arms around her?

These thoughts IMO show more than separation sadness of a wife married for 15 years. I get the feeling that the loss that weights more is of the lover, not the husband. There is a subbtle difference, and I think it's consistent in her later thoughts of dead Ned, but we'll discuss it again then.

Anyway, my point is that people in love feel more strongly (and sometimes a little exaggerated, too) about romantic competition and I believe that's the case with Catelyn.

[Julia H.]

ShadowCatRivers and aje12, I agree with your insightful analyses regarding Catelyn's feelings about Jon's mother.

Falling in love with Ned must have made it worse. The lack of closure that Catelyn felt was probably felt by Ned, too. We know from his POV that he could not get over Lyanna's death or maybe he could not get over what his promise cost him, and Catelyn must have sensed that there was no closure for Ned either, which probably increased her own insecurity.

She could still love Ned with all her heart though, and I will risk the idea that all her negative feelings were channelled through Jon Snow, helping to keep her love for Ned intact.

I've been also wondering what Catelyn's original idea was regarding the move to King's Landing. If she had gone with Ned, then all her children with the probable exception of Robb would have gone with them. Would she have been content to leave Jon in Winterfell then, and so out of her sight? I suspect not, because of the inheritance issue.

I think encouraging Ned to take the chance offered by the king in the interest of the family and especially the children is natural and understandable. However, when the message comes from Lysa, they both sense danger. Securing the king's goodwill may still seem to be the logical step to take. Yet, Ned will have to accept the exact position that Jon Arryn held, which obviously did not protect him. Accepting the offer should seem to be a double-edged sword now, and the necessary split-up of the family could be a worrying prospect.

Catelyn and Ned are not experienced in the game of thrones. Notice that Stannis, who also reaches the conclusion that Arryn was killed by the Lannisters, leaves King's Landing – and he survives.

Of course, Ned is not like Stannis. Catelyn tries to persuade him to accept Robert's offer in three ways. To start with, she tells him the king has brought him "great honours". That does not convince Ned. Next, she mentions the great opportunity for Sansa and the family. Ned is still not convinced, he seems to have reservations about Joffrey. Finally, Lysa's message comes, and now Catelyn (with some help from Maester Luwin) gives Ned a duty, and that is the argument that convinces Ned:

"You must go south with him and learn the truth."

"Would you leave your brother surrounded by Lannisters?"

Even as she is saying that, however, she is thinking of her children.

First the victory must be won, for the children's sake.

Another interesting detail I noticed is Ned saying: "Robert would never harm me or mine."

But does Ned really believe that? Of course not. Why must Jon Snow's true parentage be kept secret, after all? Because Robert would harm Ned and his nephew / "adopted child". Catelyn does not believe it either – she is reminded of the dead direwolf killed by a stag. She is correct. Unfortunately, it is a classic case of wanting to avoid a "foretold" tragedy and ultimately making sure that it happens.