Tyrion and Jon, two sides of the coin?

[Zoip]

Jon and Tyrion, two of the most prominent characters of the series. And while they are very different in a lot of ways, they do have much in common. I'm writing this down because I believe Jon isn't going to end up on the Iron Throne, but there is a bigger chance of him ending as a Night's King-ish figure or otherwise in cahoots with the Others. Since Jon and Tyrion have a lot of similarities in how their lives go in broad strokes, I think if we extrapolate this, we might find a clue or two about Jon's future. Let's draw up a list of parallels:

Both are members of two of the most powerful houses in the realm. Well, kind of. Jon is a bastard, and Tyrion is a dwarf. In his own words "all dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes.".

Both have similar figures in their life (growing up):

A parental figure who despises them. Tywin would have disposed of Tyrion if social rules allowed it. While not his real mother, Catalyn Stark would like to do the same with Jon if she could.

One sibling with whom they are very close. Jaime in Tyrion's case, Arya in Jon's case.

An uncle they admire, who goes on a journey from which they don't return. Gerion Lannister journeys to Essos and Benjen Stark ranges beyond the Wall. Both are presumed dead. Interestingly both Tyrion and Jon end up following their uncle's footsteps.

They both start a relationship with a woman whom they (should) know beforehand is a danger to them, not physically per sé but a danger to their position/status at least. Both women end up dying "in their arms".

They both have relative strangers dying for them (Oberyn and Qhorin). both times, it is for bigger reasons than strictly the survival of our main characters.

Over the period of time we follow them in the books, both Tyrion and Jon have performed great deeds which go largely unnoticed or underappreciated. They both get captured at one point. Tyrion meets the Mountain Men whom he persuades to join his cause. His family makes sure he loses this support when he is recovering from the wounds he sustains after the battle of Blackwater Bay.

As we know, Tyrion ends up being betrayed by his family and escapes with the help of Varys, whose counsil Tyrion has embraced during his reign as Hand and who has his own agenda. Tyrion is angry with his family after the scene with his father. Fueled by anger and vengeance he agrees to help Varys with his plan of reinstating a Targaryen King which basically means turning against his own family.

Jon gets captured by the Wildlings, whom he later allows to pass through the wall and even asks to aid the Night's Watch. Our current story ends with Jon being backstabbed by several Night's Watch brothers, his new family. It's not unlikely Bowen Marsh will try to get rid of the Wildlings while Jon is out. Like Tyrion, Jon has an advisor with her own agenda. So far he has not outright accepted Mel's help as Tyrion did Varys'. And then there is Val, who has just returned from beyond the Wall with her beautiful blue eyes. Could she be the one to convince Jon to join "the dark side"? His tourguide to the land of always winter?

[sj4iy]

It's not unlikely Bowen Marsh will try to get rid of the Wildlings while Jon is out. Like Tyrion, Jon has an advisor with her own agenda. So far he has not outright accepted Mel's help as Tyrion did Varys'. And then there is Val, who has just returned from beyond the Wall with her beautiful blue eyes. Could she be the one to convince Jon to join "the dark side"? His tourguide to the land of always winter?

I don't think Bowen Marsh is going to be able to get rid of the Wildlings...hell, he probably won't even survive the immediate aftermath of attacking Jon the way he did, when you consider that the Night's Watch weren't all on his side, and the Wildlings were all on Jon's side to begin with. Oh, and the Wildlings outnumber the Night's Watch, too.

Val is not an Other. Martin has admitted that he makes mistakes with things like eye color. But there are plenty of reasons that she couldn't be an Other, anyway.

Jon doesn't accept Melisandre's help because he doesn't trust her. She's made mistakes and he knows it.

[Hos the Hostage]

Wun wun wasn't in a great mood while the assassination took place, and he likes Jon ("eat now wun wun"). If Ser Patrek's death is not part of a conspiracy, then Marsh might end up the same.

Tyrion accepts Varys's help because he has no other options. Tyrion trusts Varys less than Jon trusts Mel.

Both Tyrion and Jon gets betrayed by their own men. (Mandon Moore and Marsh). Pod saved Tyrion. Will Satin help Jon?

[addicted to snow]

And then there is Val, who has just returned from beyond the Wall with her beautiful blue eyes. Could she be the one to convince Jon to join "the dark side"? His tourguide to the land of always winter?

I too think that Val will leave the wall with Ghost/Jon shortly after the stabbing event… they will be headed North...

There is definitely more to Val than has been revealed to the reader at this time… There is also a paragraph that describes her skin as almost glowing I think under the moon light… I do not think that she is an Other, but she definitely has an important toile to play in Jon's upcoming character development (which will be drastic)...

Val is not an Other. Martin has admitted that he makes mistakes with things like eye color. But there are plenty of reasons that she couldn't be an Other, anyway.

Interestingly, when GRRM is asked about Val's eyes, is avoids the question by brushing it off saying that he gets eye colors wrong all the time. Note: he did not say that he got Val's eye color wrong… He was clearly dodging the question, meaning that there is something regarding Val that GRRm is hiding from us...

--

I also agree that Jon is making a turn for the dark side, as GRRM has confirmed in interviews: "Jon has some dark roads to walk"… Firstly, I don't think that Jon will ever unite with his body… He will be trapped in Ghost for a while, then stumble across Hodor & take him as his primary body (a role that it is easy to see that GRRM has been engineering Hodor for all along - right down to the name)...

One thing is for sure, Jon's character development is far from being over & most readers will not recognize the Jon that emerges...

[The Free Folk]

I don't have much to add, other than agreeing with the fact that I think Jon's story arc involves him embracing a King of Winter/Night's King-type role. I am posting though because I never noticed this:

An uncle they admire, who goes on a journey from which they don't return. Gerion Lannister journeys to Essos and Benjen Stark ranges beyond the Wall. Both are presumed dead. Interestingly both Tyrion and Jon end up following their uncle's footsteps.

Good catch, and something that while it might not be significant in the long run, is still a similarity that boggles my mind a bit.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Jon doesn't accept Melisandre's help because he doesn't trust her. She's made mistakes and he knows it.

Jon doesn't trust her or believe in her help at first but he is definitely leaning more toward accepting her help by the end of ADwD and asks her to look in her fires for him. I have a bad feeling about that when he comes to in TWoW.

I also agree that Jon is making a turn for the dark side, as GRRM has confirmed in interviews: "Jon has some dark roads to walk"… Firstly, I don't think that Jon will ever unite with his body… He will be trapped in Ghost for a while, then stumble across Hodor & take him as his primary body (a role that it is easy to see that GRRM has been engineering Hodor for all along - right down to the name)...

One thing is for sure, Jon's character development is far from being over & most readers will not recognize the Jon that emerges...

Yes, Jon will be a darker version of himself but why wouldn't he return to his body? His entire arc is pointing to what he will do when he kills the boy and allows the man to be born and that won't be using another man's body. He'll return to his own body and live as Jon Snow even after he finds out who his parents are. I doubt he'll be unrecognizable though, just darker and harder.

As for the OP, yes, it does look like Tyrion and Jon have a lot in common. But I'm not sure I see them becoming villains. I just see them both getting darker and more ruthless while maintaining their core beliefs and values. And I wonder if they will both "rule" in some way (not the IT) by the end of the story.....

[sj4iy]

Jon doesn't trust her or believe in her help at first but he is definitely leaning more toward accepting her help by the end of ADwD and asks her to look in her fires for him. I have a bad feeling about that when he comes to in TWoW.

Jon says "you needn't trust a man to make use of him". That's basically how he feels about Melisandre.

Yes, Jon will be a darker version of himself but why wouldn't he return to his body? His entire arc is pointing to what he will do when he kills the boy and allows the man to be born and that won't be using another man's body. He'll return to his own body and live as Jon Snow even after he finds out who his parents are. I doubt he'll be unrecognizable though, just darker and harder.

Agreed. Jon's entire arc is pointless if he's not basically himself when he comes through this crisis. All if his character growth means nothing if he's not still Jon Snow.

As for the OP, yes, it does look like Tyrion and Jon have a lot in common. But I'm not sure I see them becoming villains. I just see them both getting darker and more ruthless while maintaining their core beliefs and values. And I wonder if they will both "rule" in some way (not the IT) by the end of the story.....

Yeah, I don't see how they become villains.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Jon says "you needn't trust a man to make use of him". That's basically how he feels about Melisandre.

Yes, I don't think he'll ever trust Melisandre but he was starting to turn to her a noticeable difference from when she first arrives and he didn't want anything to do with her. Still, Jon will not be like Stannis when it comes to Melisandre, even though she thinks he will be just like Stannis and they will mutually use one another.

[The Free Folk]

Yeah, I don't see how they become villains.

I don't think they'll become villians, per se, but can definitely see them being perceived as villains by other characters, and memoralized as such in myth, similar to how Robb was a half-wolf, half-human monster to southeners. This is the beauty of this series IMO, that we don't have true villains (ok, maybe Ramsay) and heros but rather the perceptions of villainry and heroics, and I think Jon's story arc will ultimately highlight this when it's all said and done.

ETA: Actually, I think it could be argued that both Jon and Tyrion are already perceived as villains by most characters at this point of the story; Jon as the champion of the wildlings, Tyrion as the demon monkey responsible for the deaths of Joff and Tywin.

ETA #2:

Agreed. Jon's entire arc is pointless if he's not basically himself when he comes through this crisis. All if his character growth means nothing if he's not still Jon Snow.

:agree: 100%

[addicted to snow]

Yes, Jon will be a darker version of himself but why wouldn't he return to his body?

That's a question that you will have to ask Jon Snow… I don't know why he is doing it, I only know that this is what he's doing...

GRRM has a habit of writing the unexpected, yet after the unexpected turns readers can look back & find tons of foreshadowing… If you look for the clues & the foreshadowing beforehand & utilize a SSM or two, you will see that this is where GRRM is going…

Jon will never reunite with his own body again… Interestingly enough it just so happens that there is a 2nd character in the far North who is rumored to have both Targaryan & stark blood - a character who's very name suggest that he will be taken over by Jon - a character who is incredibly strong, in shape, and has quite a large member as per one of the first chapters in AGOTs… Considering the principle of Checkov's Gun, alone, GRRM had no reason to write about Hodor's member if said member would not be utilized at some point in the story. I have a difficult time seeing Bran using said member. Instead it is Jon who will claim Hodor's body… Martin already has him prepared for easily being warged - a horse that already has a bit in his mouth...

[sj4iy]

That's a question that you will have to ask Jon Snow… I don't know why he is doing it, I only know that this is what he's doing...

GRRM has a habit of writing the unexpected, yet after the unexpected turns readers can look back & find tons of foreshadowing… If you look for the clues & the foreshadowing beforehand & utilize a SSM or two, you will see that this is where GRRM is going…

Jon will never reunite with his own body again… Interestingly enough it just so happens that there is a 2nd character in the far North who is rumored to have both Targaryan & stark blood - a character who's very name suggest that he will be taken over by Jon - a character who is incredibly strong, in shape, and has quite a large member as per one of the first chapters in AGOTs… Considering the principle of Checkov's Gun, alone, GRRM had no reason to write about Hodor's member if said member would not be utilized at some point in the story. I have a difficult time seeing Bran using said member. Instead it is Jon who will claim Hodor's body… Martin already has him prepared for easily being warged - a horse that already has a bit in his mouth...

...and the foreshadowing for this is where, exactly?

[Narvi]

People have survived worse wounds in this book then Jon's stabbing. He might warg in to ghost immediately after and eat some face but it won't be for long. The whole undead Jon thing, NK Jon, etc is just ridiculous. What a waste of a character that was true. Tyrions arc is still up in the air to me. Lots of foreshadowing about him doing big things

[JNR]

I also agree that Jon is making a turn for the dark side, as GRRM has confirmed in interviews: "Jon has some dark roads to walk"…

I have little clue about Jon's future behavior, but I realized something today that might interest you: a reasonable translation of "Lucifer" is "lightbringer."

[sj4iy]

I have little clue about Jon's future behavior, but I realized something today that might interest you: a reasonable translation of "Lucifer" is "lightbringer."

Jon is "Gift from God".

Stark means "severe".

Somehow I doubt Martin has placed meaning on all the names in the series.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

That's a question that you will have to ask Jon Snow… I don't know why he is doing it, I only know that this is what he's doing...

Jon will never reunite with his own body again… Interestingly enough it just so happens that there is a 2nd character in the far North who is rumored to have both Targaryan & stark blood - a character who's very name suggest that he will be taken over by Jon - a character who is incredibly strong, in shape, and has quite a large member as per one of the first chapters in AGOTs… Considering the principle of Checkov's Gun, alone, GRRM had no reason to write about Hodor's member if said member would not be utilized at some point in the story. I have a difficult time seeing Bran using said member. Instead it is Jon who will claim Hodor's body… Martin already has him prepared for easily being warged - a horse that already has a bit in his mouth...

This hasn't been foreshadowed at all. It's just your prediction and, quite frankly, seems very hard to take seriously so I'm wondering if that is indeed your mission. what has been foreshadowed so far is numerous quotes of Snow and King as well as Maester Aegon telling Jon to kill the boy so the man can be born. Interpreting that to mean that Jon will be dead to all but his spirit will live on in Hodor's body does not fit with anything from Jon's arc and thinking that Hodor's member is the clear link to proving this theory.......

Anyway, I agree there are tons of similarities between Jon and Tyrion.

[Zoip]

Wow, thanks for the input guys!

I don't think they'll become villians, per se, but can definitely see them being perceived as villains by other characters, and memoralized as such in myth, similar to how Robb was a half-wolf, half-human monster to southeners. This is the beauty of this series IMO, that we don't have true villains (ok, maybe Ramsay) and heros but rather the perceptions of villainry and heroics, and I think Jon's story arc will ultimately highlight this when it's all said and done.

ETA: Actually, I think it could be argued that both Jon and Tyrion are already perceived as villains by most characters at this point of the story; Jon as the champion of the wildlings, Tyrion as the demon monkey responsible for the deaths of Joff and Tywin.

Indeed! As said on the forums many times before: history is written by the victor. People jump to conclusions on a theory of Jon becoming known as the new Night's King based on what they know from bedtime stories of the old one. We don't even know for sure if that guy was as evil as they painted him (though of course, we can assume he wasn't a saint). Jon becoming a Night's King doesn't mean he becomes evil, only that he becomes known as a king. Lannister propaganda or peasant ignorance and rumor mongering can make him look evil.

That's a question that you will have to ask Jon Snow… I don't know why he is doing it, I only know that this is what he's doing...

GRRM has a habit of writing the unexpected, yet after the unexpected turns readers can look back & find tons of foreshadowing… If you look for the clues & the foreshadowing beforehand & utilize a SSM or two, you will see that this is where GRRM is going…

Jon will never reunite with his own body again… Interestingly enough it just so happens that there is a 2nd character in the far North who is rumored to have both Targaryan & stark blood - a character who's very name suggest that he will be taken over by Jon - a character who is incredibly strong, in shape, and has quite a large member as per one of the first chapters in AGOTs… Considering the principle of Checkov's Gun, alone, GRRM had no reason to write about Hodor's member if said member would not be utilized at some point in the story. I have a difficult time seeing Bran using said member. Instead it is Jon who will claim Hodor's body… Martin already has him prepared for easily being warged - a horse that already has a bit in his mouth...

Lol, interesting idea, but I would sooner put my stock in a Bran/Hodor/Meera love triangle though. I think Jon will end up in his own body since technically it makes the most sense. We've had a few examples of wargs in other vessels where it's pointed out that the warg will fade or become absorbed by the host conscience. Jon would not be able to remain in control of Hodor, he would end up a part of Hodor. He also would not want to cockblock his little brother.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I'll die laughing if Jon returns as the villain and is up to Dany to save the day :lol:

Jon's "death" is important, that's obvious but for the act itself. I suppose this way he will be able to see something he couldn't in a more "normal" situation, like when Bran fell and his "sight" was opened. Maybe this way he's able to see beyond the wall and find Benjen or whatever the Others are planning. Or he sees Dany after she also "dies" or get involved in something magical.

Or he might go to the "other beyond", the after life, and meet his parents and then, go and ask for Reed's presence to check out. (It is known he was the only man surviving the ToJ along with Ned).

[sj4iy]

I'll die laughing if Jon returns as the villain and is up to Dany to save the day :lol:

My reaction:

"...well, THIS jumped the shark in a hurry."

*close book* or *turn off tv*

[Lord of Nutella]

I just dont see this night king stuff happening. I mean, why? If he gets killed by the others, hell just be a wight like each other.

I think,

"Dark roads to walk" better fits to jon exploring the lands of always winter, collecting informations about the others. Probably with val, as we already know she is good at surviving north of the wall and i just got the feeling that those two characters are made for some sort of interaction between them.

[jabulaniman]

Wun wun wasn't in a great mood while the assassination took place, and he likes Jon ("eat now wun wun"). If Ser Patrek's death is not part of a conspiracy, then Marsh might end up the same.

Tyrion accepts Varys's help because he has no other options. Tyrion trusts Varys less than Jon trusts Mel.

Both Tyrion and Jon gets betrayed by their own men. (Mandon Moore and Marsh). Pod saved Tyrion. Will Satin help Jon?

Tyrion doesn't "distrust" Varys per se, it's just that by that time he simply does not care about Varys's goals or what happens with Westeros. At that time he's pretty mentaly unstable, not althat caring if he lives or dies, even finding amusement from deadly situations. The only things he's REALLY interested in is a) finding Tysha and b) messing up Cersei.