Amoracchius Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 With regard to the arguments that it was dumb for Benjen to take the black when he was so high in the line of succession, unless I'm mistaken, we haven't actually been told when Benjen joined the NW. All we know is that he took the black before the events of the novels and that enough time had passed for him to be appointed First Ranger (which may not have actually been very long considering the prestige of the Starks and how quickly Jon was made LC). For all we know, Benjen may not have left Winterfell for the Wall until after Bran or Rickon's birth, when he would have been pretty far down the line of succession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alienarea Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Maybe he wasn't into taking a wife and fathering children but ranging and freezing.Basically, a dumbass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benandante Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 If that is the reason it's kind of lame on his part, oh my father brother and sister are dead so i'll leave my one relative alone at Winterfell and go to the wall. It very well may never even be touched upon in the books just something i've been wondering about. Didnt think it really made sense There's something here. Consider this question in understanding Benjen: why did Jon join the Night's Watch? Why is his place not in Winterfell? What makes Jon a bastard? He does not know who his mother is. Consider that Benjen's mother also is unaccounted for in the series, ominously so. Thus we have a sort of Mother/Motherless theme in the North. (Tack on the entire Catelyn arc with her son and daughters, and then consider the Jon/Theon outcast roles and the suffering of Theon's mother as not unlike Cat's suffering). Benjen Stark joining the Night's Watch perhaps is connected to the identity of his mother, who was 1) a Northerner, as Cat is the first non-Northern bride of a Stark 2) likely of no conventional noble house, or we would have heard of her (someone would have referred to Robb as someone's nephew). Perhaps, as Bran Vras speculates, she was a wildling, of an order of priestesses like Val and Dalla. Recall what Bran sees as the heart tree, the pregnant woman asking for a son who would avenge her. Avenge her how? Is this son Benjen? The vision immediately precedes Lyanna and Benjen playing with swords. So maybe he is at the Wall to be with his mom. Maybe he is at the Wall to avenge his mom. Finally, the most crackpot: I tend to view Jon-Benjen-Mance-Bloodraven as belonging broadly to the same arc: a highly-talented boy rises quickly through the ranks (echoed in the story of Osric Stark), achieves great success, falls in love with the enemy, deserts, and eventually gains a form of eternal power or enlightenment or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlesW Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 I always thought that was just a Stark tradition. People of the north actually take the Wall seriously and "there has always been a Stark on the Wall." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon88 Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 I always thought that was just a Stark tradition. People of the north actually take the Wall seriously and "there has always been a Stark on the Wall." That is how exactly it is. Though its not true regarding that that there has always been a Stark on the Wall. Its true regarding Winterfell. You mixed those 2 up. Serving the wall is a honorable thing just like joining the kingsguard. Its the same philosophy so Benjen joined it because its a honorable thing and he was interested in it. Its that simple. Don't know why people are making an issue out of this. Its stupid just like the person calling Pycelle a hero. Joining the wall is a honorable thing just like being a kingsguard who has the same requirements as the people in the wall. So you guys are calling Barristan a dumbass too because he has to do exactly the same thing as people in the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerWalterPuffsAlot Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 That is how exactly it is. Though its not true regarding that that there has always been a Stark on the Wall. Its true regarding Winterfell. You mixed those 2 up. Serving the wall is a honorable thing just like joining the kingsguard. Its the same philosophy so Benjen joined it because its a honorable thing and he was interested in it. Its that simple. Don't know why people are making an issue out of this. Its stupid just like the person calling Pycelle a hero. Joining the wall is a honorable thing just like being a kingsguard who has the same requirements as the people in the wall. So you guys are calling Barristan a dumbass too because he has to do exactly the same thing as people in the wall I feel like the people joining the wall for honor sake has fallen off quite substantially but I'm not discounting this as his reason at all but seems overly simplified. Raegar read something in a book and decided to pick up a sword and become a bad ass and for some reason i picture Benjen finding something out that make him believe he needs to get his ass up north because winter is coming etc... I have nothing to back this up :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerWalterPuffsAlot Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 It woulda been pissa if Benjen told Jon his reasons while jon was thinking about joining Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amoracchius Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 I feel like the people joining the wall for honor sake has fallen off quite substantially but I'm not discounting this as his reason at all but seems overly simplified. Raegar read something in a book and decided to pick up a sword and become a bad ass and for some reason i picture Benjen finding something out that make him believe he needs to get his ass up north because winter is coming etc... I have nothing to back this up :) The prestige that comes with taking the black may have waned in Westeros in general, but it's pretty clear from early on in the books that the Starks still view it as an extremely honorable thing to do. We're told repeatedly that both Ned and his father were solid "friends of the Watch," and Benjen probably grew up hearing all the stories of past Stark black brothers and their heroics on the Wall, so it doesn't seem like a stretch at all that a young man growing up in that environment would be inclined to take the black. In fact, we witnessed something quite similar with Jon in AGOT. As for the issues around his place in the line of succession for Winterfell, see my earlier post in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon88 Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 I feel like the people joining the wall for honor sake has fallen off quite substantially but I'm not discounting this as his reason at all but seems overly simplified. Raegar read something in a book and decided to pick up a sword and become a bad ass and for some reason i picture Benjen finding something out that make him believe he needs to get his ass up north because winter is coming etc... I have nothing to back this up :) You could be right about that. He might of found something out that made him join the Wall. Its a possibility but even without that joining the Wall is seen as a honorable thing in the North and is looked high upon. The Watch has declined but still is looked honorably especially to the North because they are affected more by the Wall. Lot of times raiders would go south of the wall and attack so to them joining the night's watch is pretty honorable and its like the biggest thing. To them its like the equivalent of becoming a knight or joining the kings guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Penry Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 It is not very odd for the last born son of a Northern house to join the Night's Watch, or houses with the blood of the first men in general, just look at Weymar Royce.Maybe he regrets it, maybe he doesn't, I personally don't think there is any great mystery behind it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myraan Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 In the universe Martin created I would say, yes it is perfectly normal for a younger son of a northern house to seek honour at the Wall. Or in the case of old man Mormont the wall is an interesting place to retire to if your wife is dead and you heir likely to be old himself by the time you die. That said I would have thought given what the political climate at the time was - that Benjen would have been really useful back at Winterfel. He was at the time second in line to Lord of the North. And had he remained at home - he could have been the Stark at Winterfel when Ned accepted Handship. Cat would therefore have gone to Kings Landing, perhaps her boys too. Not that Ben would have known he'd have been needed to rule the North while Ned ruled the Realm for Robert; he wasn't to know that Jon Arryn would be murdered. A rather far out thought I just had is maybe Rhaegar and Lyanna knew all along that the third dragons head needed to be at the wall to defeat the Others and so plotted with Benjen early on to make taking the Black seem like a cool idea to Jon once he reached manhood. Which is why Benjen had to be removed from the story all along because he knows too much, along with Ned of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon88 Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 In the universe Martin created I would say, yes it is perfectly normal for a younger son of a northern house to seek honour at the Wall. Or in the case of old man Mormont the wall is an interesting place to retire to if your wife is dead and you heir likely to be old himself by the time you die. That said I would have thought given what the political climate at the time was - that Benjen would have been really useful back at Winterfel. He was at the time second in line to Lord of the North. And had he remained at home - he could have been the Stark at Winterfel when Ned accepted Handship. Cat would therefore have gone to Kings Landing, perhaps her boys too. Not that Ben would have known he'd have been needed to rule the North while Ned ruled the Realm for Robert; he wasn't to know that Jon Arryn would be murdered. A rather far out thought I just had is maybe Rhaegar and Lyanna knew all along that the third dragons head needed to be at the wall to defeat the Others and so plotted with Benjen early on to make taking the Black seem like a cool idea to Jon once he reached manhood. Which is why Benjen had to be removed from the story all along because he knows too much, along with Ned of course. FYI Benjen did not join the Wall after the rebellion. During the rebellion he was the Stark of Winterfell. After the rebellion, Eddard became the Warden of the North and stayed in Winterfell. And during that time Eddard already had Robb and Jon. So their was already an heir to Winterfell. And since Ned is in Winterfell and has a son, there is no point of him to stay there. And as I said before he wanted to join the night's watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myraan Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 FYI Benjen did not join the Wall after the rebellion. During the rebellion he was the Stark of Winterfell. After the rebellion, Eddard became the Warden of the North and stayed in Winterfell. And during that time Eddard already had Robb and Jon. So their was already an heir to Winterfell. And since Ned is in Winterfell and has a son, there is no point of him to stay there. And as I said before he wanted to join the night's watch. yea - I knew that - that's why I said second in line - baby rob was first... was just thinking given they had just had a war Ned might have been happier with a spare as-well as an heir - my point was a what if.... I realise that when Ben joined the NW they had no idea what would happen in future at KL I'm sorry if I wrote my post as if I was disagreeing with you when I think I'm not :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unitron Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Cherchez la femme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
have mercedene Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Cherchez la femme Tried and can't find any. Wouldn't he NOT want to join the Watch if this were true? ;) Anyway, all the answers are here in this thread: - There has to always be a Stark at the Wall. - Even though in general joining the Watch isn't something most of Westeros wants to do anymore, the Northmen still consider it important and a worthy cause. If anyone feels this way, it's going to be a Stark. - The NW recruiter at the Tourney of Harrenhal talking to Benjen. - ^ at this point, Rickard, Brandon, and Lyanna are still alive. Benjen is 3rd in succession for LoW after Ned, and Lyanna is supposed to become Lady of Storm's End. He's probably thinking it's very unlikely that he'll ever become LoW, so NW is an opportunity for him to contribute to society as an honorable Stark. There, he also has the chance to make a name for himself by moving up the ranks, which he eventually ends up doing by becoming First Ranger. - No wife and, as far as we know, no betrothal. - Lyanna disappears, Rickard and Brandon are executed, and Robert's Rebellion begins. Ned goes and fights with Robert, so Benjen can't join the Watch just yet, he has to hang out in Winterfell just in case. - While he's gone, Ned marries Catelyn Tully. She goes to Winterfell and Robb is born. Benjen is pushed from 2nd back to 3rd in line for Winterfell. - Ned makes it back to Winterfell, Robb survives infancy, and things are looking good in Westeros with crazy Aerys gone and Robert now king. Benjen is now free to go to the Wall like he wanted to. So, based on everything we know, why wouldn't Benjen join the Night's Watch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amoracchius Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Tried and can't find any. Wouldn't he NOT want to join the Watch if this were true? ;) Anyway, all the answers are here in this thread: - There has to always be a Stark at the Wall. - Even though in general joining the Watch isn't something most of Westeros wants to do anymore, the Northmen still consider it important and a worthy cause. If anyone feels this way, it's going to be a Stark. - The NW recruiter at the Tourney of Harrenhal talking to Benjen. - ^ at this point, Rickard, Brandon, and Lyanna are still alive. Benjen is 4th in succession for LoW after Ned, and Lyanna is supposed to become Lady of Storm's End. He's probably thinking it's very unlikely that he'll ever become LoW, so NW is an opportunity for him to contribute to society as an honorable Stark. There, he also has the chance to make a name for himself by moving up the ranks, which he eventually ends up doing by becoming First Ranger. - No wife and, as far as we know, no betrothal. - Lyanna disappears, Rickard and Brandon are executed, and Robert's Rebellion begins. Ned goes and fights with Robert, so Benjen can't join the Watch just yet, he has to hang out in Winterfell just in case. - While he's gone, Ned marries Catelyn Tully. She goes to Winterfell and Robb is born. Benjen is pushed from 2nd to 3rd in line for Winterfell. - Ned makes it back to Winterfell, Robb survives infancy, and things are looking good in Westeros with crazy Aerys gone and Robert now king. Benjen is now free to go to the Wall like he wanted to. So, based on everything we know, why wouldn't Benjen join the Night's Watch? Well put, and welcome to the forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerWalterPuffsAlot Posted August 20, 2014 Author Share Posted August 20, 2014 i would like to know when he joined the NW was it before the Greyjoy Rebellion after during Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerWalterPuffsAlot Posted August 20, 2014 Author Share Posted August 20, 2014 My issue isnt that he joined the NW but why do it so young I know we start the story off with Royce and he's obviously a young lordling joining the wall but i feel like that is very rare. And if its for honor sake or to win renown great! good for him! Just doesnt sit well with me for some reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHOSTSTARK Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Agreed with the above posters; the Starks have a long historical connection to the Wall and likely have always sent their second, third, etc sons to take the black. :agree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buried Treasure Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 My issue isnt that he joined the NW but why do it so young I know we start the story off with Royce and he's obviously a young lordling joining the wall but i feel like that is very rare. And if its for honor sake or to win renown great! good for him! Just doesnt sit well with me for some reason Benjen joined 14 years earlier than Royce, that's half a generation. The Watch has been declining for decades at least but to maintain its strength it needs to recruit its own numbers again every generation. Most of the near thousand men in the Watch at the beginning of the series would have been recruited in the last 30 years so if we assume an exponential decrease in recruitment then joining the Watch would have been a lot more common for Benjens age group than Waymars. Maybe Benjen joined on in a failed attempt to inspire more young noblemen to join and reverse the decline in recruits. Or because the war had killed off a lot of the northern heirs and spares in his generation and he and his brother were concerned there wouldn't be enough future officers for the watch if he didn't join. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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