The Problems With Season 4 (Show & Book Spoilers)

[jaimereborn]

I've been meaning to write this for a while, but it's taken me a long time to really gather my thoughts about Season 4. In brief, while watching it, I couldn't get past this uncomfortable feeling that i really wasn't enjoying it anymore - certainly not in the way I used to. And that felt difficult to accept. I mean I used to absolutely love this show - it put me on to the books, which I read twice, before devouring all the fan theories and becoming a big ASOIAF fan. I got so hyped for this season. And then something fell flat. It seems I'm not alone in feeling this either - many people on these boards have begun to turn off the show, a divide between show/book fans seems to have grown larger. And Season 4 has been a particular target of abuse for avid book purists.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not a book 'purist'. However, I do think mistakes have been made in terms of adapting the material from book to screen. But that isn't the real issue here. This season fell flat for larger reasons - something about the tone was just all wrong. Now having analysed it closer, I think I've understood why. Please forgive the long post, but bear with me.

1) Character Development & Plot-Emphasis

I'll start by saying something pretty much all of us can agree on: ASOIAF is character-driven. We live and breathe these characters in both book and show, we watch them grow and look on in fear and horror as terrible things happen to them. Now for the most part, Seasons 1 - 3 of the show followed this mantra. Many of the scenes were purely character-focused, psychological drama - creating vivid portraits of the minds of these complex people. Take for example, Robert and Cersei's scene together in Season 1, or the scene with Tyrion, Bronn and Shae - providing beautiful backstory and tensions to these people. Take Sansa and Cersei at Blackwater in Season 2, or the cell scene with Cat and Jaime. Take Cat with Talisa in Season 3, Cersei and Tyrion, the many scenes with Jaime and Brienne. D&D executed these perfectly.

Now some successful examples of backstory and character development in Season 4 were for me Oberyn's speech in the cell, which provided some brilliant history to his personal conflict with the Lannisters, as well as to Tyrion and Cersei's relationship, while The Hound's monologue to Arya and Sansa's transformation from pawn to player were also both great moments that revealed depth and change. But moments like this were very few and far between. In general, Season 4 was plot-driven. We constantly watch things happen to these people, but we're not learning much about them. Now this is fine if you enjoy constant action and a more Hollywood-style romp, but that is not the tone of ASOIAF to me. In Season 4, we don't feel like we're seeing much inside the minds of these people anymore, and the dialogue that occurs is more often than not slightly trivial in tone, or even playing for laughs (more on this later). And this creates distance, and a lack of real depth or growth.

Let's take a more in-depth look at how three of the major characters have developed from season to season, exemplifying what I consider to be a problem for most of the characters this season:

Arya

S1: Grows from a brave but naive young girl into a girl who has been shocked by some of the traumas those close to her have suffered. She forces herself into independence in a bid to cope on her own but is actually far more sensitive than she lets on. At the end of the season, she still holds on to hope of finding Jon at the Wall and escaping King's Landing, but is scarred by what has happened to her.

S2: Events continue to spiral out of Arya's control and she begins to learn the nature of survival, as well as power and justice. Her psychological state begins to change in order to attempt to reverse her own circumstances and avoid being the victim. Meeting jaqen is a major part of this, and we see the Arya we knew begin to disappear slightly as she starts to obsess over revenge and death, and the power this could give her to deliver her own notion of 'good'. Yet there is real goodness in her still, spurred on by the hope she holds out for of returning to her family and her shrinking sense of identity as Arya Stark.

S3: We see Arya become more distrustful as she experiences further abandonment and betrayal. She becomes more embittered upon realising that there is no kind of karmic justice, and she begins to feel a more urgent need to dish this out herself in order to restore what she perceives as a balance. However the lines between right and wrong have become blurred in her mind as she starts to see death as the only way in which she derives meaning from life anymore. The red wedding is the final straw for her in this regard. Totally alone and psychologically disturbed, Arya turns to killing as a means to process and accommodate her grief and nihilistic world view. We depart s3 with arya as a disturbed young girl with psychopathic tendencies, obsessed with death and killing.

S4: What happened here? Arya enters where we left off - as this disturbed young girl with psychopathic tendencies, now obsessed with death and killing. At the end of the season... she leaves Westeros as a disturbed young girl with psychopathic tendencies, obsessed with death and killing. What further have we learned about her in the 10 episodes of this season? From most of her dialogue, it is pretty much that she sees life as meaningless now and that she is clearly traumatised. But we already knew this. She learns some lessons from The Hound about death and justice, sure, but she already learned these lessons numerous times through the other unnecessary death and violence she has experienced. No, the main thing we learn about Arya in this season is what she goes through: she kills people on her list, she travels to the Vale, she runs into Brienne and some nice plot-heavy drama is created. But we don't have a sense of character growth. She remains emotionally static all season. There was no real journey for Arya this season, except for a physical one.

Daenerys

S1: Dany begins essentially as a slave, powerless and a victim. Her state of mind is fragile and in constant fear of violence and abuse from her brother or from others around them. She ends the season with Dragons, emotionally ravaged but driven by this to pursue justice and survive her circumstances, having grown into a position of power and experienced a whole host of life-changing emotions, losing her brother, husband and child.

S2: Not the strongest season plot-wise for Dany, but psychologically she comes into her own, turning into a leader for the first time as she guides the Dothraki through the Wastes, demands entry to Qarth and then begins to negotiate with those around her. She becomes more politically minded and more aware of her own power and circumstances, and increases in confidence while also becoming more paranoid - a potentially dangerous combination. This paves the way for Dany's growing ambition and desire to lead and reclaim Westeros.

S3: The season where Dany turns into a real player, her psychological state transforming from one of quiet confidence and uncertainty to that of a leader and almost to arrogance. We watch her go from success to success and become more assured in her desire to tackle the slave trade and pursue her own ideals of justice. She ends the season as a Queen, at the height of her confidence.

S4: Dany's 'tone' does not change all season until episode 10. This may be something to do with Emilia's acting, but it is also a major problem with the writing. Her 'regal' voice remains the same no matter if she is talking to a stranger or to her closest confidente, her smarmy looks and suggested arrogance begin to suggest that she might be slightly deluded but this remains the same all season. Dany does not change psychologically until Episode 10, where we finally see some internal conflict. Now in the books, we constantly see Dany grapple with decisions and begin to question her direction and values as she comes to Mereen, but there is no suggestion of this internal dialogue. Only the short scene with Jorah when she agrees that he may be right about Yunkai, but this comes off as more about Jorah than herself. Even with Daario - a perfect opportunity for Dany to reveal more about herself- D&D opt for the 'regal' tone and for some lazy romance with no depth whatsoever. Hell, I have no understanding of what makes that relationship tick in the show as we barely even known Daario and Dany hasn't said a word to him or anyone else about herself for way too long. Again, external things happen to Daenerys but her state of mind remains seemingly static throughout the season. No intrigue about her character for the viewers, no internal dilemma - the last scene with the dragons was the first time I felt anything for Dany in this entire season, as it finally felt like she was experiencing something internally.

Jon

S1: Jon finds a purpose and starts to craft a real identity for himself. He becomes more self-aware and starts to see what the world outside is really like, as well as the dangers there. We see insights into how being a bastard has really affected him, especially in his scenes with Tyrion and Sam. He also begins to grow into someone who commands the respect of those around him - a position he had never been in before.

S2: Jon is forced to question his vows and ideals concerning honour, both through Quorin and Ygritte. This really affects him as being a brother of the Nights Watch is his only semblance of belonging and real identity. This is the season where Jon really begins to change, seeing that the world is not as black and white as his ideals would have hoped.

S3: Jon falls in love, sees a separate world away from his own and is forced to become someone else for the greater good. He is then emotionally disturbed by some of the choices he is forced to make in order to honour his vows and 'do the right thing'. Jon ends the season physically and psychologically scarred.

S4: We meet Jon back where we left him, cut up over Ygritte. Now I do think Kit performed some of the better acting this season, but this plotline is where D&D really messed up. Aside from his emotions over Ygritte, we see Jon embark on a pointless quest to kill the mutineers, based on them potentially revealing the weakened state of the Watch - something Mance already knows and is able to easily find out through the warged eagle (which Jon also knows about). Now this was just terrible writing from D&D, a cheap way of stretching out Jon's plot and giving him some Hollywood-style action. What do we learn about Jon from this mission - that he has a strong sense of honour and is a good leader? We already know this, and he has his chance to shine as a warrior and leader at the battle of the wall anyhow. If anything, this extended subplot, detracted from the weight of Jon really discovering these qualities in himself in Episode 9. And this meant that we spent almost an entire season following Jon through logistical and plot-driven decisions without spending any emotional time with him until Season 9 & 10. Finally here, we see Jon develop: as a leader, as someone who deeply loved Ygritte, as a brave and determined character who is willing to negotiate with Mance single-handedly on behalf of the Watch and even capable of self-sacrifice. Why did D&D feel the need to postpone this battle so long, when in the books it happened almost straight away? This was a daft decision, as again, it forced Jon to be static most of the season as a character, and it took away all the urgency of the approaching wildling attack. We'd almost forgotten about it by the time they finally arrived in E9. And to go on further, if D&D really needed to put in the 'filler' content, could they not have used it to shine more spotlight on character development? Could we not have had more scenes with Jon and his brothers, some backstory, some insight? After all, this is what 'downtime' in ASOIAF is usually about.

Now it is clear that Tyrion goes on an emotional journey and character transformation this season, as does Sansa. But I would contend that this is largely because these are the characters who had much of their book plotlines left for this season, and had clear arcs for D&D to run with. Pretty much all of the other characters seem to be largely wandering around in these static states of minds, bumping into each other, talking, fighting and so on. And so a problem becomes apparent: why did D&D decide to stretch out so little book material over so long a season? This is especially bizarre considering they need to cram all of Books 4 & 5 into the next one, and then only have 1 season each for the last two books. Was this purely because they were so obsessed about having Tyrion shooting Tywin as a dramatic season finale? If so, this was a poor decision as it seriously bloated almost all the other characters' plotlines and I felt that this opened up a large hole in the heart of the show.

3) Dialogue

Let's move onto the problems with dialogue. Now I think that one of the problems with this season is that many of the scripts had to be written too quickly, and feel as if they were almost written on autopilot. D&D have become lazy with some of the characters, lazy with not bothering to find many of the best lines in the book to keep in (which they did faithfully in much of S1 & 2), and lazy with using dialogue as a means to character depth as well as just plot advancement.

I think one of the most problematic instances of this approach was Episode 2, 'The Lion and the Rose'.

This was the first episode of Season 4 where warning bells really began to ring for me. The entire 'feel' of Game of Thrones was just not in this episode. It felt like the show had suddenly transformed into a soap opera, much of which was playing for laughs. There was so much overt and exaggerated bitchiness that didn't feel real (see: Jaime & Loras, Cersei & Brienne) , so many obvious and badly written encounters (see: Oberyn & Ellaria with Cersei & Tywin - who would ever be this openly provocative and babyish when this is a subtle political drama?). Characters were given their due and then ignored for the rest of the episode, rather than used when they were actually necessary. The ending was decent enough, but hadn't been built satisfyingly at all, given the pantomime-like environment and artificial dialogue that had taken place all episode before hand. They totally botched this in my opinion.

Then there was Episode 4, 'Oathkeeper'. I know much has been said of Craster's Keep, but the dialogue there was honestly shockingly bad. I found it uncomfortable to watch - that a show had created a stock villain so obvious and uninteresting, with such bad lines.

There were numerous examples for me of lazy writing like this, and I won't list them all, but a few others that spring to mind are Daenerys's shockingly trivial dialogue with Daario throughout the season, especially their 'sex scene', Brienne's one-dimensional dialogue with Pod (could they not have used this pairing for any interesting backstory or exposition?), Ygritte's dialogue with Tormund (these are major characters with fascinating lore and backstories - why are we hearing nothing about them?), Bran with Jojen & Meera (again, they managed to make this story as dull as possible because they only focused on the plot of Bran getting there, not using the journey for any interesting dialogue or insight). And don't get me started on the 'beetles' scene - yes, it could have been good in the point it was trying to make, but ultimately the scene was far too long and aspects of the conversation were just cringe-inducing and looked as though even Peter & Nilokaj were having a hard time taking it seriously.

4) Adaptation

Much of this has been covered by other threads, and I've already stated that I'm not a purist, but there were undoubtedly some major mistakes here. As mentioned, the decision in general to stretch out so little material for some characters over an entire season left us with a plot-driven, rather empty feeling end product. But it's not just that - rather than adding in events such as Craster's Keep because they had so little inspiration for Jon, could D&D not have spent more time focusing on adapting material from the book that is crucial to character development - which they actually left out?

The most obvious and controversial example of this has been Tyrion's backstory with Tysha, and I've listened to both sides of the argument but ultimately I find it pathetic that D&D have said they couldn't find a way to put this in as it was all presented 'internally' in the books. This has not presented a problem in numerous other scenes where characters have mentioned people from their pasts not in the show, and they've even had Tyrion talking about Tysha in Season 1. Instead of having them talking about beetles for 10 minutes involving a character called Orson who has NEVER been mentioned before in the show, why didn't Tyrion talk to Jaime about Tysha and his regrets, creating a conversation that added depth to his character and set up the full blooded drama of the final scenes? Then Jaime could reveal the truth about Tysha in the cells, and Tyrion would have a reason to visit Tywin and demand an explanation. He would also have a reason to kill Shae other than the inexcusable 'self defence' scenario that went down in the show, which was just another instance of D&D whitewashing Tyrion and making him a less interesting character. These final scenes in the show also felt very rushed - why leave so little time for this finale when the whole season has built up to it, and there has been filler throughout that could have been replaced with proper build-up?

Then there is the issue of Lady Stoneheart. Whether she makes it into future seasons or not, I was certainly among the legions of fans who were hugely disappointed that the 'Epilogue' wasn't adapted at the point in the story that it enters in the books. I think when reading the books that was actually one of the most incredible moments for me, one I will always remember and which truly threw me. Probably the biggest twist in ASOIAF. Now D&D have made sure every fan has been spoiled on it already by upsetting the book readers, and they've also made sure that if the moment comes in S5, it will be far less of a shock than at the end of a season. By the end of S5, the Red Wedding will feel like ages ago, and I still feel that there couldn't have been a better twist ending to make readers avidly enthusiastic about the next season. Seeing Arya sail off on a boat doesn't come close. And I simply don't accept the argument that they 'only have so many minutes a season' to fit this stuff in and for that reason it didn't make the cut. I can think of about 50% of stuff that was in this season that could have come out to make room for the much more interesting and dramatic plot turn that is the appearance of Stoneheart.

There are always going to be issues with adaptation, but the two main examples that I have given above are also the two ones that D&D have spoken publicly about, and frankly their answers don't add up and have made me seriously worried about their approach to future seasons and adaptation. There seems to be an inclination to water down the content for viewers who they think won't be able to remember names or backstories, which is both insulting and completely against the nature of ASOAIF. I understand they want this to be as commercial and successful a show as possible - a show for everyone - but it is already hugely popular, and there are a vast number of characters and locations: people have kept up. People like being challenged, they like mysteries, they like world-building.

Conclusion

I could go on a little more about problems I've perceived with the pacing, and with more characters and scenes this season, but I've made the points central to my argument that Season 4 was the season of Game of Thrones where I feel like the tone has changed and the heart of the drama was really missing for the first time. Not once did I feel the psychological drama that haunted me after I saw the Red Wedding Episode, where Dany walks into the fire, or where Ned is murdered. There were some problems with these earlier seasons, of course, but at their core they had this sense of character-driven emotional drama that kept you rooting for the protagonists and hooked each week to see what would happen. In Season 4, this was replaced for the most part by an emphasis on a sprawling plot, lazy dialogue between characters D&D know the audience love already 'just because they could', and static character development for many of the major characters. There were some great bits, particularly involving Tyrion and Oberyn - but I feel D&D have lost perspective slightly over what made this show so unique and compelling, and instead are working too much with the knowledge that this is a vastly popular show - the 'hey, I bet the audience will enjoy this' approach. This makes for trivial encounters and bizarre pacing. For season 5, I hope they close the doors on the outside world more and try to bring the show back to its original grounding, working more from the books to realise that the characters need to keep growing internally as well as being pulled along by external events. But I have a bad feeling about this, as AFFC and ADWD were always going to be the hardest to adapt and D&D have had to write the scripts very quickly in order to meet the production schedule. I am pretty sure they will have taken extreme liberties with the source material and kept on going along the lines of Season 4 in their treatment of dialogue. Buy hey, Season 4 was their most popular ever, statistically, so why wouldn't they?

Sorry this post has been so long. I hope it has been somewhat stimulating to read and would be interested to hear anyone else's insights and opinions.

[sati]

" I can think of about 50% of stuff that was in this season that could have come out to make room for the much more interesting and dramatic plot turn that is the appearance of Stoneheart." - yep.\ I'm still hoping she is simply delayed but delaying her is also a terrible choice.

The lack of any kind of revenge for RW this season is just horrendous writing.

It used to be my favorite show but this season was just riddled with so many problems that I probably won't even rewatch it.

[boojam]

What you say about Dany after S4E3 is pretty much the same as George wrote in Dance.

As for Arya and Jon , also pretty much the books, so I was ok with that.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Conclusion

I could go on a little more about problems I've perceived with the pacing, and with more characters and scenes this season, but I've made the points central to my argument that Season 4 was the season of Game of Thrones where I feel like the tone has changed and the heart of the drama was really missing for the first time. Not once did I feel the psychological drama that haunted me after I saw the Red Wedding Episode, where Dany walks into the fire, or where Ned is murdered. There were some problems with these earlier seasons, of course, but at their core they had this sense of character-driven emotional drama that kept you rooting for the protagonists and hooked each week to see what would happen. In Season 4, this was replaced for the most part by an emphasis on a sprawling plot, lazy dialogue between characters D&D know the audience love already 'just because they could', and static character development for many of the major characters. There were some great bits, particularly involving Tyrion and Oberyn - but I feel D&D have lost perspective slightly over what made this show so unique and compelling, and instead are working too much with the knowledge that this is a vastly popular show - the 'hey, I bet the audience will enjoy this' approach. This makes for trivial encounters and bizarre pacing. For season 5, I hope they close the doors on the outside world more and try to bring the show back to its original grounding, working more from the books to realise that the characters need to keep growing internally as well as being pulled along by external events. But I have a bad feeling about this, as AFFC and ADWD were always going to be the hardest to adapt and D&D have had to write the scripts very quickly in order to meet the production schedule. I am pretty sure they will have taken extreme liberties with the source material and kept on going along the lines of Season 4 in their treatment of dialogue. Buy hey, Season 4 was their most popular ever, statistically, so why wouldn't they?

Sorry this post has been so long. I hope it has been somewhat stimulating to read and would be interested to hear anyone else's insights and opinions.

You've outlined much of own feelings on the show so far and my concerns going forward. I think you've hit the nail on the head with your description of Season 4 being plot pointed and lacking the heart of previous seasons in a way the books do not. The last paragraph sums up many of my concerns going forward for the next season, as well as the entire series in general. I do think the bolded speaks to the how and why things have changed so much. It is part of the reason that I am sure I will never look forward to the show again in the same way. I am thinking the entire story is a beast too big for the showrunners, and I suspect that they do use the 'hey, that would be cool' lowest common denominator to see their way through for many of the characters and stories. It's a damn shame, I bet many of the actors would love to sink their teeth into the character driven stories that the show started off with many seasons ago.

The post was extremely interesting and stimulating to read, and I thank you for that.

[JustAnObsessedFan]

I agree with you, generally speaking. It felt like death after death after death.

Personally, I thought Arya was written well throughout Season 4. The Hound/Arya pairing was definitely a season highlight for me. We saw her open the season with a scene in which she took control in & we saw her close the season on the way to Braavos - which is a positive thing for the character. It's definitely the biggest turning point for her since the scene where she saw her father beheaded. That's when everything changed for her, & I believe going to Braavos will either make or break her.

Daenerys on the other hand - Dany had less screen time this season than previous seasons. I enjoyed watching her take Mereen. The Daario romance has not been developed at all - Dany is obsessed with him in the novels. The 'sex' scene we saw during one of the episodes during S4 felt out of place. Although I thought it was a refreshing change seeing a woman command a man to take his clothes off, as it's always the other way around. The final scene when she chained her dragons in the tombs was really pleasing to watch. The dragons are so underused - obviously due to CGI/budget constraints. I feel they're saving the bulk of the Mereen drama for next season. It'll all lead up to Daznak's Pit & the battle of Mereen (assuming they're going to go ahead with it - I hope they do considering we'll most likely see Jorah return with Tyrion during the battle and contribute to Dany winning the battle.

Not including Lady Stoneheart is something I was really angry with. I'm slowly losing hope that they'll include her at all - it's probably the biggest mistake they could make IMO. I too was fascinated whilst reading it - I couldn't believe what I was reading. It's so twisted. I was so ecstatic that it wasn't the end of Cat, and reading that she had turned into a cold-blooded revenge-seeker was something that (as bad as this is going to sound) - it excited me. I want to see Cat get the revenge she wants on the Freys, the Lannisters, the Boltons - all those who orchestrated the Red Wedding. No doubt fans watching the show would love watching it too.

I hate it how people try to deny the Fantasy element of the series. It IS a Fantasy Series. So annoying.

Wasn't a fan of all the made up storylines that were introduced in S4. Crasters Keep was so pointless. The beetle scene was just... it shouldn't have happened. Yara's appearance was the only storyline that went away from the books that I enjoyed watching - even though it amounted to absolutely nothing. Then they tell us characters like LSH just wouldn't fit in the time they had. Please. Or that characters aren't important to the story. Yet making up random villains just to kill time are.

[Colonel Green]

In Season 4, this was replaced for the most part by an emphasis on...lazy dialogue between characters D&D know the audience love already 'just because they could'

On this particular score, Season 4 had far, far less of that than did Season 3. There's nothing in Season 4 that's equivalent to, well, the bulk of the Season 3 King's Landing story prior to episode 3.08. All of Olenna's scenes after her first one, especially, exist mainly to give Diana Rigg screentime and have her trade banter with other heavies in King's Landing.

[Arya'sSanctuary]

I had a difficult time with this whole season. I liked the oberyn/Tyrion interactions, but not much else. Jaime, Shae are almost unrecognizable, (Jaime rapes Cersei ? Shae "really" loves tyrion?). And Cersei begs Jaime to marry her, apparently consequences (her children delegitimized, the family name tarnished, thus the loss of the iron throne) be damned(when it is the impulsive Jaime who begs for this in the book). That ridiculous conversation between Jaime and Tyrion, and NO mention of Tysha-- the defining betrayal that shapes Tyrion's whole life. Not to mention how ridiculous and backwards Brienne and Pod relationship is. Those are just the ones that immediately jump to mind. I tried to rewatch an episode a few days ago, and just couldn't stomach it! I enjoyed the first 3 seasons, even through changes I didn't like or for which there seemed no rhyme or reason. I'll give the next season a chance, but I've a feeling this is the end for me.

[RedShirt47]

I never saw any non readers complain about season 4. None of them said anything about a drop in quality or lack of drama.
There was plenty there for them.
Oberyn's performance.
The Purple Wedding.
Tyrion's Trial, especially his speech.
The Mountain vs The Viper. Lot of youtube video's of folks reaction to that.
Tyrion killing Shae and Tywin.

The only people I've seen complaining about season four are book readers complaining about changes. The show is not going as expected.
Well, taken as a separate entity the tv series is still great television. I am still really enjoying it. Non readers are not complaining about it at all.

Personally I think Lady Stoneheart will work better (for tv) with some build up to it. I think if they have a hooded figure hanging some freys in Ep 1. Someone mention the BwB lead by this hooded woman in ep 2 or 3. And then Brienne running into them ep 5 or 6 and only then is the hood removed to reveal unCat. As long a spoiler trolls don't spoil the surprise I think that would be much better televsion then a WTF moment just after the killing of Shae and Tywin. The impact of both two big WTF scenes right at the end of a season would be reduced by their proximity to each other.

The show's not perfect I admit. The sept scene with Jaime and Cersei was a misstep and there were others. But on the whole I found the changes have been required and generally good.
Some changes I felt were an improvement on the books. I much prefered the Jaime Tyrion farewell on the show to the books. Many didn't like the change but many did.

As season 5 will have many more changes than other seasons due to the number of new storylines and characters I can only see the Readers' complaints growing. But the non readers will continue to enjoy one of the best shows on television unhindered by book knowledge and expectations.

[jaimereborn]

I never saw any non readers complain about season 4. None of them said anything about a drop in quality or lack of drama.

There was plenty there for them.

Oberyn's performance.

The Purple Wedding.

Tyrion's Trial, especially his speech.

The Mountain vs The Viper. Lot of youtube video's of folks reaction to that.

Tyrion killing Shae and Tywin.

The only people I've seen complaining about season four are book readers complaining about changes. The show is not going as expected.

Well, taken as a separate entity the tv series is still great television. I am still really enjoying it. Non readers are not complaining about it at all.

Personally I think Lady Stoneheart will work better (for tv) with some build up to it. I think if they have a hooded figure hanging some freys in Ep 1. Someone mention the BwB lead by this hooded woman in ep 2 or 3. And then Brienne running into them ep 5 or 6 and only then is the hood removed to reveal unCat. As long a spoiler trolls don't spoil the surprise I think that would be much better televsion then a WTF moment just after the killing of Shae and Tywin. The impact of both two big WTF scenes right at the end of a season would be reduced by their proximity to each other.

The show's not perfect I admit. The sept scene with Jaime and Cersei was a misstep and there were others. But on the whole I found the changes have been required and generally good.

Some changes I felt were an improvement on the books. I much prefered the Jaime Tyrion farewell on the show to the books. Many didn't like the change but many did.

As season 5 will have many more changes than other seasons due to the number of new storylines and characters I can only see the Readers' complaints growing. But the non readers will continue to enjoy one of the best shows on television unhindered by book knowledge and expectations.

i don't think the fact that people are book readers invalidates their complaints? what a bizarre generalisation to make. many of my complaints are separate from adaptation issues. and this is also a core part of the viewership, as millions of people have read the books - so why should their opinions hold no value in your eyes? i do think that there are avid book purists whose expectations are too high, but there also many like myself who enjoyed many of the changes over the first 3 seasons and perceive there to be a more alarming widespread switch of tone in this latest season that is leaning away from what i love about the series as a whole - both in relation to book and show.

of course many viewers who haven't read the books will have loved the last season, largely as they have no knowledge of the plot - and for the most part first reads/watches of any series revolve around wanting to know what will happen next (this was certainly my approach during my first read of ASOIAF). this means they can enjoy the ride without too much consideration of all the other factors that have made this such a brilliant show. that being said, many of my friends and family who have not read the books have also had some complaints about this season. especially in terms of pacing, about some characters' storylines becoming a bit dull, some about the violence, and some about bizarre decisions that made no sense to them (ie. Yara fleeing the Dreadfort and Jon's expedition to Craster's Keep).

[oierem]

i don't think the fact that people are book readers invalidates their complaints?

But you admit that you were dissapointed about the lack of Tysha's reveal and the omission of Lady Stoneheart, which conditioned your appretiation towards the episode and season in general. The knowledge of what happens in the books does change how you view the series, even though you can find rational arguments to support your disappointment.

Most of the people who read the books after watching a few seasons will tell you that the seasons they watched before reading the books were great but they're now dissapointed with the seasons they watch AFTER having read the books.

Overall, season 4 has been more succesfull, better rated and has had more viewers. Those are facts.

I would like to point out that , while you say D&D have become "lazy" writing dialogue (surely it can be said they were more lazy when they relied more on the books, while now they seems to work a bit harder to create new stuff, right?), you say that the worst episodes dialogue-wise were 4.02 (written by Martin) and 4.04 (writen by Cogman).

And finally, I love the irony: when they said book 3 was going to be covered in two seasons, that seems like the best thing ever for most people (not for me). Now, it seems that it wasn't such a good thing because most of the characteres were "static" this season?

Guess that shows what's the right thing to do with the next books, right?

[jaimereborn]

But you admit that you were dissapointed about the lack of Tysha's reveal and the omission of Lady Stoneheart, which conditioned your appretiation towards the episode and season in general. The knowledge of what happens in the books does change how you view the series, even though you can find rational arguments to support your disappointment.

Most of the people who read the books after watching a few seasons will tell you that the seasons they watched before reading the books were great but they're now dissapointed with the seasons they watch AFTER having read the books.

Overall, season 4 has been more succesfull, better rated and has had more viewers. Those are facts.

I would like to point out that , while you say D&D have become "lazy" writing dialogue (surely it can be said they were more lazy when they relied more on the books, while now they seems to work a bit harder to create new stuff, right?), you say that the worst episodes dialogue-wise were 4.02 (written by Martin) and 4.04 (writen by Cogman).

And finally, I love the irony: when they said book 3 was going to be covered in two seasons, that seems like the best thing ever for most people (not for me). Now, it seems that it wasn't such a good thing because most of the characteres were "static" this season?

Guess that shows what's the right thing to do with the next books, right?

firstly, the term 'lazy' applies to quality as much as it applies to quantity of work. and i know who those episodes were written by - but D&D are ultimately behind all overarching decisions concerning the writing throughout the show. as George has stated many times, D&D often edit his written material and interchange it with bits they've written from different episodes for the final cuts.

secondly, you've ignored most of my points and only focused on the adaptation ones (again). yes these two adaptation points contribute to my view of the season - but you have now suggested that considering the book in relation to the show is both irrational and invalid, and have made the sweeping generalisation (again) that essentially all book readers can be lumped into one category as people whose opinions are unreasonable or overly subjective, no matter what their opinions. is this some kind of inverse snobbery or are you just being provocative?

thirdly, i'm not sure where you got the point from about people being disappointed with previous seasons after having read the books, but you've given no evidence and i've not experienced this myself. so that seems pretty flimsy.

fourthly.... the fact the show has been more successful, had more viewers etc etc is because of the media hype and critical success of the show over the first three seasons, which has resulted in mass exposure and loads more people deciding to check it out. of course it's at its peak - it has become one of the most hyped and talked about shows ever. it is not the case that suddenly millions of people tuned into season 4 because they all thought this one was definitely going to be the best. that just makes no sense. and (again) you've ignored my point about first-time viewers enjoying plot over most other factors.

fifthly.................... i don't know where your final point has come from. i wasn't in the camp being overjoyed that they were stretching out the book over two seasons either. in fact i don't think i ever really gave that thought, i just entered the season with an open mind.

[RedShirt47]

i don't think the fact that people are book readers invalidates their complaints? what a bizarre generalisation to make. many of my complaints are separate from adaptation issues. and this is also a core part of the viewership, as millions of people have read the books - so why should their opinions hold no value in your eyes? .

I never said the complaints were invalid, I simply pointed out that non readers were not complaining about the show as much as readers were. I was pointing more towards the reasons why there were complaints than to the actual complaints themselves. Feel free to complain all you want, I'm not here to stop you. But I am free to point my opinion on the show also.

I was simply putting the complaints in context.

[boojam]

I never said the complaints were invalid, I simply pointed out that non readers were not complaining about the show as much as readers were. I was pointing more towards the reasons why there were complaints than to the actual complaints themselves. Feel free to complain all you want, I'm not here to stop you. But I am free to point my opinion on the show also.

I was simply putting the complaints in context.

I am a book reader and I have no real big complaints.

[Hodor!!!]

I am a book reader and I have no real big complaints.

Same goes for me ...

[sj4iy]

Same goes for me ...

Add two more to that list (my husband and I loved this past season).

[RedShirt47]

I am a book reader and I have no real big complaints.

Well, same as myself then :)

I have had some (very) minor complaints but in general I've felt the changes either worked better on telly or sometimes just worked better story wise.

[oierem]

firstly, the term 'lazy' applies to quality as much as it applies to quantity of work. and i know who those episodes were written by - but D&D are ultimately behind all overarching decisions concerning the writing throughout the show. as George has stated many times, D&D often edit his written material and interchange it with bits they've written from different episodes for the final cuts.

secondly, you've ignored most of my points and only focused on the adaptation ones (again). yes these two adaptation points contribute to my view of the season - but you have now suggested that considering the book in relation to the show is both irrational and invalid, and have made the sweeping generalisation (again) that essentially all book readers can be lumped into one category as people whose opinions are unreasonable or overly subjective, no matter what their opinions. is this some kind of inverse snobbery or are you just being provocative?

thirdly, i'm not sure where you got the point from about people being disappointed with previous seasons after having read the books, but you've given no evidence and i've not experienced this myself. so that seems pretty flimsy.

fourthly.... the fact the show has been more successful, had more viewers etc etc is because of the media hype and critical success of the show over the first three seasons, which has resulted in mass exposure and loads more people deciding to check it out. of course it's at its peak - it has become one of the most hyped and talked about shows ever. it is not the case that suddenly millions of people tuned into season 4 because they all thought this one was definitely going to be the best. that just makes no sense. and (again) you've ignored my point about first-time viewers enjoying plot over most other factors.

fifthly.................... i don't know where your final point has come from. i wasn't in the camp being overjoyed that they were stretching out the book over two seasons either. in fact i don't think i ever really gave that thought, i just entered the season with an open mind.

I did ignore most of your post, not because I meant to be rude or anything, but because I read it without any intention of posting on this thread (don't get me wrong, it was an interesting post and your opinions are clearly valid and well-thought, but since I don't agree with your overall feelings towards season 4, I preferred not to post here).

But there were a couple of things that caught my attention (the fact that you critisized D&D's dialogue while saying the worst dialogue was on episodes they didn't write, and the fact that you hadn't read the books when you started to watch and enjoy the show), and that led me to write a quick post about those specific aspects.

And I never meant books readers (I am a book reader btw) are irrational and overly subjective, or that comparing the books and the show is invalid. Sorry if you got that impression. But it's undeniable that the fact that we have read the books first changes our perception of the adaptation (for better or worse). It does. We expect things, and we are pleased or dissapointed if we get/don't get what we expected. And similarly, it's always more difficult to accept things that are different.

For example, you were dissapointed that they didn't include Tysha in the finale (you were expecting something that worked well in your mind and you were dissapointed by its ABSENCE (something that cannot happen to someone who hasnt' read the books).

[Arya'sSanctuary]

Oierem: "For example, you were dissapointed that they didn't include Tysha in the finale (you were expecting something that worked well in your mind and you were dissapointed by its ABSENCE (something that cannot happen to someone who hasnt' read the books)."

I think it's natural when you have lived with a character and feel you "know" him or her, to feel a bit of regret to see them, to your mind, misunderstood or misrepresented. As if a good friend had been maligned and you are unable to defend them. My husband doesn't read the books and loves the show. I really like some aspects of the show, but having grrm's rich three dimensional characters in the forefront of my mind makes the show feel kind of flat at times. Did kind of ruin it for me, personally, I guess.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

The interesting thing is, while I agree with the OP in thinking the show is becoming a bit more hollow, a bit more plot driven and looking for 'the cool scene' as opposed to the character building drama of previous seasons, with or without book comparisons, and I myself am becoming disillusioned with the product as a whole, I've spent the past few days recommending the show to a friend because I do know, for entertainment sake and the scenery and the actors, she would get lots of enjoyment out of it. I've explained to her my issues with the show, book or no book, my enjoyment of each medium, and have told her that without reading the books and inspite of my concerns, she would really enjoy it. She's very intelligent and has been a reader in the past, she doesn't have the time to read that I do. I outlined the pros and cons, show and book, (hopefully, she'll forget half of the spoilers that may have come up, LOL), and I'm lending her the earlier seasons of dvds. She does hear and see all about the show, and is interested in it just for some fun, for some good acting, to see what all the hype is about, and hopefully, for general enjoyment and entertainment purposes. The funny thing is.......it's all the hubbub about ratings and 'shocks' that has allowed her to know what I've been babbling about.

The subject only came up today because she happened to tell me that she rented "The Other Woman," and started to tell me how much she enjoyed it, then my ASOIAF and GOT obsessed self said: Hey, wait, that's the movie with Jaime Lannister, Knight of The King's Guard and King of Twincest, also known as UncleDad on the internet, right? I remember, because I wanted to see this movie, LOL So, the show came up again, but she's interested in it......for the entertainment value, to be 'in the know, and in on the 'cool new thing,' and well, Nikolaj himself may be a new selling point. Can't blame her for that.

Still, just because I can recommend the show to a friend for sheer beauty and acting (and, the chance to obsess in person with someone) doesn't mean I don't see the changes in the tone of the show itself, books or no books. I'm well aware there is still lots of enjoyment to be had from the tv show, I expect to have some enjoyment from it still thanks mostly to actors and to the fact I do love a surprise on the show now and then and a good laugh, but..............that doesn't mean I feel the same way about it as previously or that I think........it will be a well rounded, sensible story without many problems in the long run, IF story and sense mean something to someone, if the three dimensional heart of it means something to someone. But, I can recommend it as a good way to spend an hour, moreso for someone that hasn't read the books, and doesn't realize some of the stuff that they are missing or even, the chance for a change from book material to improve the show. It is what it is, a way to spend an hour......people will just feel differently about it.

And now, I expect to have a new person to oogle Nik with, as well as Jaqen, wait til she get's a load of him. :P

[Le Cygne]

There were numerous examples for me of lazy writing like this, and I won't list them all, but a few others that spring to mind are Daenerys's shockingly trivial dialogue with Daario throughout the season, especially their 'sex scene', Brienne's one-dimensional dialogue with Pod (could they not have used this pairing for any interesting backstory or exposition?), Ygritte's dialogue with Tormund (these are major characters with fascinating lore and backstories - why are we hearing nothing about them?), Bran with Jojen & Meera (again, they managed to make this story as dull as possible because they only focused on the plot of Bran getting there, not using the journey for any interesting dialogue or insight).

I agree. Dany could have talked to Missandei about Daario. Brienne could have talked to Pod about Jaime. Jaime could have talked to Tyrion or Bronn about Brienne. Sandor and Arya could have talked to each other about Sansa. Sansa could have talked to Sweetrobin about Arya. Sansa could have talked to Margaery or Shae about Sandor. Tyrion could have talked to Jaime or Bronn about Tysha. Jon could have talked to Sam about Ygritte and Arya. And so on... Casual mentions are all that is required, even just reaction shots when someone's name comes up. Depth...