The Problems With Season 4 (Show & Book Spoilers)

[Berric_Dondiedagain]

the same could be said for any TV adaption - they have to take complex situations and dumb them down because some things cannot be shown-

as for D&D not doing as good a job- I think that is subjective as well-

there have been situations that I felt they were wasting time (greyworm and missandei) but perhaps in the show they are going to make them a thing-

we really know what D$D have planned any more than we know what GRRM has planned

I would rather watch the most boring episode/season of GOT rather than watch the best most breast filled episode of True Blood-

[Konradsmith]

Lady Fevre Dream and Le Cygne, the picture I referred to is in a wotw.com article called "Peter Dinklage heads to the set, while Game of Thrones closes down a beach for filming". It's not a very large picture, so don't think it'll be too scintillating, but it's Jaime on horseback in a black jacket like the one Tywin wore to Sansa and Tyrion's wedding, except its open at the chest. Enjoy.

(btw if you all are implying with that "Porne" joke that you think Jaime will cheat on Cersei in Dorne and act the fool/Oakheart, I can assure you that that won't happen). In case I'm charged with being off topic (which I clearly am, srry all), I'm giving those two the picture they requested.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Lady Fevre Dream and Le Cygne, the picture I referred to is in a wotw.com article called "Peter Dinklage heads to the set, while Game of Thrones closes down a beach for filming". It's not a very large picture, so don't think it'll be too scintillating, but it's Jaime on horseback in a black jacket like the one Tywin wore to Sansa and Tyrion's wedding, except its open at the chest. Enjoy.

(btw if you all are implying with that "Porne" joke that you think Jaime will cheat on Cersei in Dorne and act the fool/Oakheart, I can assure you that that won't happen). In case I'm charged with being off topic (which I clearly am, srry all), I'm giving those two the picture they requested.

Thank you very much, you KNOW I'm off to oogle NCW, cleavage or not.

I don't think Jaime will be sexying up anyone in Dorne, not for real, anyway, I do suspect that D&D will want to flirt with the possibility, though. I'm more interested to see.......where they take the Cersei and Jaime dynamic, the previous season has had that relationship all over the place, and instead of them drifting further and further apart as season 4 continued, last we saw them.......they were sexing it up in White Sword Tower. I do think the show will tease what Jaime may or may not do with another woman as him and Cersei deteriorate (and, he does notice women in the books, that's not my issue with it), but I'm curious to see how things go down between the twins once Tywin's body is found, once Cersei does NOT want to marry Jaime and admit the kids are his, and once......all of this sinks in with Jaime.

[Bran17]

How does that work? If the Battle at Castle Black is going to take one entire episode (4x09), when does Tyrion trial and his conversation with Pod, Bronn, Jaime and Oberyn happen?

PW = Episode 4

Tyrion talks to Pod and Jaime(shorter scenes) = Episode 5

Tyrion's Trial = Episode 6

Tyrion tries to find a champion(conversations with Bronn, Jaime and Oberyn) = Episode 7

:)

[Bran17]

You don't think LS is a complex character? I understand that my opinion is my own but in this case - 'Stoneheart' is what Catelyn has become. It's still Cat. She's not a completely new character - it's an extension of Catelyn's sufferings. All the horror that she's had to watch her family endure is the reason why she's become this way. I suppose it's all a matter of how you view the character. I personally see her as an extremely despressed and defeated version of Catelyn. She's still a mother. She's still a 'Lady'. She's just changed.. almost completely.

I think she'll play a bigger role in future. George doesn't do 'shock value'. Everything he writes, he writes for a reason or to provide depth/enrich the narrative he's created.

After the omission of the character - I concluded that it would make more sense to reveal her when she crosses paths with Brienne. It would make no sense to introduce her and then not see her until Brienne finds her.

I feel as though people are reducing Stoneheart to 'shock value' and 'pointless' simply because the writer or producer or whatever he was called her those things to try and make fans feel stupid for being angry she was left out.

I disagree.

She should be revealed in a moment like the one in the Epilogue. That would make people excited about her return, because she would be seeking revenge against people who deserve it(Freys). It would make her introdution much more exciting.

[Ingelheim]

PW = Episode 4

Tyrion talks to Pod and Jaime(shorter scenes) = Episode 5

Tyrion's Trial = Episode 6

Tyrion tries to find a champion(conversations with Bronn, Jaime and Oberyn) = Episode 7

:)

Tyrion would have to talk with Bronn, Jaime and Oberyn in the same episode. Too much screentime. 15 minutes alone for him. That's insane.

Also, even if it works with Tyrion, it wouldn't with Sansa, Jaime, Cersei, Tywin, Tommen, etc...all those storylines would feel to rushed.

[Bran17]

Tyrion would have to talk with Bronn, Jaime and Oberyn in the same episode. Too much screentime. 15 minutes alone for him. That's insane.

Also, even if it works with Tyrion, it wouldn't with Sansa, Jaime, Cersei, Tywin, Tommen, etc...all those storylines would feel to rushed.

But that's exactly what happened in Mockingbird. I didn't make alterations. haha

I just put episode 7 in my list to show that it would be exactly the same in the end.

[Fisch]

The biggest problem with Season 4 was that it was padded. The season was nearly over before I got to the material it covers in the books, but even without knowing what was going to happen, I thought things were padded.

Biggest/worst examples (IMO):

- Dany's material. As important as Dany is to the piece as a whole, the way they've worked her story for the show, they had very little to work with this season without cutting into material from ADwD/Season 5. Instead of inventing new material, or making more out of one of if not the major development on her front (exile of Jorah), they chose to pad out her wait in Meereen, invent a romantic tension between Missandei and Grey Worm that amounts to nothing, put off Jorah's exile 'til nearly the end of the season, and in a sense, toss it away. Her scenes, usually only one per episode, felt obligatory, cutting to Dany for the sake of keeping her around rather than to show any kind of meaningful growth with her.

- The Night's Watch. The threat of the looming wildling attack is considerably diminished when, having built it up for several seasons and done an arc where one of your main heroes struggles to get back to the Wall to warn everyone, you drag your feet even longer. In terms of a single season of television, it may be more dramatically satisfying to keep the battle 'til the end, but in terms of the story as a whole, it wastes too much time. They didn't give the Watch anything particularly interesting to do in the meanwhile. Which leads me to...

- Bran's detour into Craster's keep. I have mixed feelings about building up the mutineers anyway. It gave us a cool battle sequence, but it felt like dabbling in depravity just for the sake of it. Bran's being captured by them had no real impact on him or his journey either.

- Arya and the Hound. Nothing especially wrong with any of their scenes - they just dragged that storyline out beyond necessity. I confess that I can't think of a way they could've wrapped it up sooner that wouldn't have felt awkward.

- Yara's rescue attempt. Did that accomplish anything? Showing that Theon is "loyal Reek?" Couldn't you just have waited until he faced the Ironborn at Moat Caitlin to show that?

- Stannis. With the way Stannis' story ended in Season 3, I thought it would have been far more satisfying to save his reappearance until his defeat of the wildlings. Instead, the first have of the season invents scenes for him that basically amount to foot-dragging before he finally shows up at the Wall.

[Beric175]

Except for the editing of 'that scene' between Jaime and Cersei I have no major complaints.

Dany's material was frankly more interesting on the show than anything we saw in book 5 and I think as the show will condense books 4 and 5 into one season they'll get to the jucier bits more quickly and I don't think that the role of Greyworm/Missandhei in the show was for nothing. It's to make you care about them before something incredibly awful happens to them and it is interestingly a relationship that does not revolve around sex but rather emotional attachment and social interaction and gives us insight into the perspective of the former slaves, which Martin never bothered to do really because only lords and ladies can be important POVs apparently. Te Dany stuff is meant to make you question her choices and so far from episode 4 onwards they have been successful at showing us that so I thought this was one of the better adaptations of the book story because ultimately, whether in meereen or in KL these are the kinds of problems she'll have to deal with and so it showed us how difficult making these decisions ultimately is. It also sets up the meereenese's and the viewers'/readers' impatience with dany next season when she starts making even bigger mistakes.

Bran's story changes actually felt necessary to me because you have to do something because we've been seeing this kid being carried around for 2 seasons already trying to get where he wants to go and it also allowed Bran to make two active choices: to leave his own happiness and family aside in favour of his own sense of duty he feels to find out what his dreams mean and to actively warg Hodor to have him do horrible things he wouldn't normally do. The latter was necessary because in season 3 we hadn't gotten the sense of the warging of humans being a bad nono but here we finally did and in an ironic twist of fatehe avenged jaime, the man who made him a cripple in the first place. So while Bran chooses his actual destiny over the reunion with Jon he makes some questionable choices at the same time and does not realize what they entail but we do. It was also a rare victory for the Night's Watch and good in general because we never see justice triumph but then again it was in a way that forced the Night's Watch to murder their own mutinous Brothers. While you can look at it from just an action perspective and say 'well they only had it in there to give Bran's story more action' there are subtle elemnts in here that make it worth debating and analysing.

The Arya/Hound story was fine in my opinion because it left it amibuous whether they had grown closer or not. By the end the Hound and some portion of the audience had thought that was the case and then it turned out it wasn't (or was it?). It also showed the misery of the Riverlands in a way that we hadn't seen previously and hence showed us the post-conflict situation and set the stage nicely for any moral arguments to come in future seasons in my opinion, most involving the BWB. It also made up for the lack of Sansa and sandor interaction because they devoted time to flesh him out as a character, it just happens to be with a different character.

The Yara rescue attempt was strange at first but then it came to me that she decided to leave because even if she had successfully taken theon away the mission was a failure because no Theon was there to save at this point and it freed her in her mind from any further obligations that she might have. While it was there to keep the character around to a certain extent, it did not take up a whole lot of time and it gave Ramsay the idea to have Theon fake his own identity to fellow Ironborn.

I knew that Stannis' story would be a lot of stalling because they were not going to have the battle early in the season and they certainly would not change the outcome of the battle at castle Black wit Stannis rescuing everybody then and there because that would take away from the Night's Watch's courage and honour in staying there to fight.

[Lord of Nutella]

I like s4. The only really big mistake was the pmacement of the battle for the wall. Not that the craster episodes were not interesting; they were damn cool. But they took place that should have been used to finish the asos part of Jons plot. If they had done so, they had a much easier time with s5 now.

[jaimereborn]

Dany's material was frankly more interesting on the show than anything we saw in book 5

what!?!?

[HairGrowsBack]

what!?!?

I second that.

[larastone]

Personally I liked dany's scenes in season 4 because they didn't whitewash her. The scene where she crucifies the slavers is one of the best scenes of season 4 imo

[FreeParking]

Not having to be in Dany's head automatically made the Meereen scenes better than the book for me.

Personally I liked dany's scenes in season 4 because they didn't whitewash her. The scene where she crucifies the slavers is one of the best scenes of season 4 imo

I remember "They are whitewashing Dany!" so much during season three from book readers. Some tried to point out that it isn't really until she gets to Meereen that the story starts to explore her mistakes. Lo and behold, I don't hear that accusation toward the show anymore.

[Beric175]

I'm sorry but Dany's story in book 5 is atrocious both in terms of pacing and content...and by the end she's still walking back to Meereen after a whole bunch of nothing involving a whole bunch of characters we don't really nor or at all care about happened. The fact that the show will get through this tediousness much quicker than the books is also something that makes me look forward to the essential plot points that they have to pick for the show. Instead of getting 500 pages of boredom I get a few scenes that condense most of her material to get the same basic point across. That's a huge plus for me.

[jaimereborn]

I'm sorry but Dany's story in book 5 is atrocious both in terms of pacing and content...and by the end she's still walking back to Meereen after a whole bunch of nothing involving a whole bunch of characters we don't really nor or at all care about happened. The fact that the show will get through this tediousness much quicker than the books is also something that makes me look forward to the essential plot points that they have to pick for the show. Instead of getting 500 pages of boredom I get a few scenes that condense most of her material to get the same basic point across. That's a huge plus for me.

I think Dany's Mereen arc is brilliant. Her character is split down the middle and her identity challenged. Didn't take me until a reread though to really appreciate it, as if all you are looking for is plot advancement (which admittedly on my first read I was mainly anticipating) then you miss all the subtlety and intrigue of her arc in Slaver's Bay.

[HairGrowsBack]

I think Dany's Mereen arc is brilliant. Her character is split down the middle and her identity challenged. Didn't take me until a reread though to really appreciate it, as if all you are looking for is plot advancement (which admittedly on my first read I was mainly anticipating) then you miss all the subtlety and intrigue of her arc in Slaver's Bay.

Agreed. It doesn't even compare. So far the show has stripped most of the arc of its complexity. Not entirely, they were more or less trying to get there, but I hope they'll double their efforts next season.

[FreeParking]

There was character development in the first three books, but there was also steady plot movement too. It is not an either or thing.

[sj4iy]

I'm sorry but Dany's story in book 5 is atrocious both in terms of pacing and content...and by the end she's still walking back to Meereen after a whole bunch of nothing involving a whole bunch of characters we don't really nor or at all care about happened. The fact that the show will get through this tediousness much quicker than the books is also something that makes me look forward to the essential plot points that they have to pick for the show. Instead of getting 500 pages of boredom I get a few scenes that condense most of her material to get the same basic point across. That's a huge plus for me.

I have to agree with your take on it. Her arc in book 5 was easily her worst. I'm interested to see what the show does.

[thehandwipes]

Dany's Meerene arc was hard to appreciate the first time around, I'm starting a reread after seeing the meerenese blot.

Worst part of season 4 or any show ever: F*** em till they're dead! Look at me I'm drinking blood from the skull of Jeor Mormont, now lets go rape Meera Reed.

That was when I came to realize D&D had absolutely no respect for the source material and not nearly enough talent to deviate from the books without it being horrifying and embarrassing.