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The Problems With Season 4 (Show & Book Spoilers)


jaimereborn

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I find it a little odd that the people who are complaining that the Yara/Dreadfort scene and Craster's Keep are pointless plots are the same people who are complaining about the lack of Lady Stoneheart, which, in itself, is a pointless plot. She was introduced at the end of book 3, and in the two following books, hasn't achieved anything of importance. To me, her purpose was just to provide shock value, which I don't think is a good plot device. I could be proven wrong in future books, but until then, I feel it's a little premature to get upset about her absence. Also, IMO, Michelle Fairley is too good of an actress to be stuck in a non-speaking role playing a glorified zombie who goes around hanging people.


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Also, IMO, Michelle Fairley is too good of an actress to be stuck in a non-speaking role playing a glorified zombie who goes around hanging people.

Very famous actors have been known to do cameos, and this is a top rated show. You don't need to speak for it to be a good role, good actors don't need to speak to convey emotion, and get extra props when they pull off performances like this.

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Very famous actors have been known to do cameos, and this is a top rated show. You don't need to speak for it to be a good role, good actors don't need to speak to convey emotion, and get extra props when they pull off performances like this.

Fair enough. But if Lady Stoneheart is only a cameo role, then I don't see the importance of including her.

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Fair enough. But if Lady Stoneheart is only a cameo role, then I don't see the importance of including her.

She isn't. She is either going to kill Brienne or Jaime, maybe even both.

That's why both Jaime and Brienne storylines have been changed for season 5.

She affects the main plot, and not including her, but making time for BS scenes between Grey Worm and Missandei, or pointless scenes between Sam and Gilly, is a mistake. One of the few but big mistakes this Show has done so far.

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You don't know that. And other storylines have been changed for season 5. Everything is changing.

Come on now. LS in WOW is going to be a huge plot, and since Martin needs to get rid of POVs, one of them is a goner.

Also, Jaime storyline is the one who's suffering the biggest changes since season 3. I don't think that's fair with his character.

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She isn't. She is either going to kill Brienne or Jaime, maybe even both.

That's why both Jaime and Brienne storylines have been changed for season 5.

She affects the main plot, and not including her, but making time for BS scenes between Grey Worm and Missandei, or pointless scenes between Sam and Gilly, is a mistake. One of the few but big mistakes this Show has done so far.

I'm not saying the show hasn't taken a few missteps regarding some storylines, I'm saying we don't know the full extent of Lady Stoneheart's plotline. Everyone is at perfect liberty to be mad because it would have been cool to see her, but we can't claim she'll be important enough to effect the outcome of the story. Maybe she kills Jamie and/or Brienne or maybe she doesn't. She could sit on the Iron Throne at the end for all we know, but we don't have enough information to make these claims. And we'll never have enough information until the Winds of Winter comes out.

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She isn't. She is either going to kill Brienne or Jaime, maybe even both.

That's why both Jaime and Brienne storylines have been changed for season 5.

She affects the main plot, and not including her, but making time for BS scenes between Grey Worm and Missandei, or pointless scenes between Sam and Gilly, is a mistake. One of the few but big mistakes this Show has done so far.

There's absolutely nothing that LS does that can't be done by the BWB without her. They could just as easily hang Freys and make Brienne get Jaime. You're overstating her importance.

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There's absolutely nothing that LS does that can't be done by the BWB without her. They could just as easily hang Freys and make Brienne get Jaime. You're overstating her importance.

The problem and quandry is.......in this specific instance of replacing the BWB for LSH in the Brienne segment of the story line is........Brienne has never given an oath to anyone in the BWB. There's no push/pull of past and present vows between BWB and Jaime for Brienne, regardless of the differences in LS and Cat. Putting the BWB in her place, in regards to Brienne, is just.......nothing. Oh well, they, D&D, like nothing.

And, I'm one of the few book readers that is perhaps neutral on LSH. I think the zombie thing is getting out of hand, and the dead, not dead, UnDead, but I do understand the importance of her to Brienne's story, even to Cat's children and to Cat herself. She's a vengeful revenant that needs to be put down, IMO, hopefully learning about Cat;s children first. Regardless of my personal feelings on too many Undead creatures, I don't think LS was the one to cut, or over tamper with.......storywise.

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The problem and quandry is.......in this specific instance of replacing the BWB for LSH in the Brienne segment of the story line is........Brienne has never given an oath to anyone in the BWB. There's no push/pull of past and present vows between BWB and Jaime for Brienne, regardless of the differences in LS and Cat. Putting the BWB in her place, in regards to Brienne, is just.......nothing. Oh well, they, D&D, like nothing.

And, I'm one of the few book readers that is perhaps neutral on LSH. I think the zombie thing is getting out of hand, and the dead, not dead, UnDead, but I do understand the importance of her to Brienne's story, even to Cat's children and to Cat herself. She's a vengeful revenant that needs to be put down, IMO, hopefully learning about Cat;s children first. Regardless of my personal feelings on too many Undead creatures, I don't think LS was the one to cut, or over tamper with.......storywise.

They don't need an oath. They need Pod. Threaten to kill Pod if Brienne doesn't bring Jaime. How hard is that?

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They don't need an oath. They need Pod. Threaten to kill Pod if Brienne doesn't bring Jaime. How hard is that?

But, it's different when it's first, the woman Brienne has sworn an oath to, second, a woman that Brienne is still trying to honor in finding and protecting her daughters, and third........a choice that Brienne can't make, not even for Cat or what was Cat, UNTIL......this good woman threatens to kill a child. It's a different dynamic all around. Any idiot can threaten Pod, LS doing so says lots about not only the difference in LS and Cat, but also, that it took a child being threatened for Brienne to even speak up. How hard is that to see? How hard is it to not address all my other issues in the post, but instead just tell me, well..........BWB, whatever? We don't even know if that will happen, but you are already telling me that.......whatever does happen on the show is just cool, a-ok, I'm saying.....IF it's not LS, or IF it's anyone else, it's a big difference and I have concerns. We dont' even KNOW what the show will do, but....if it wasn't a big difference, then well.....why NOT LS?

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From what LS has done so far in the story, I don't see how she is necessary. Now, if she has a major role in future books, that's different...but I can't judge on the basis of that. Only on what we have so far. Any idiot could threaten Pod, yes...and what would Brienne do if some idiot did? Let him die if she is clearly outnumbered? No, of course not. She'd try to save him.

That's my point.

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The problem and quandry is.......in this specific instance of replacing the BWB for LSH in the Brienne segment of the story line is........Brienne has never given an oath to anyone in the BWB. There's no push/pull of past and present vows between BWB and Jaime for Brienne, regardless of the differences in LS and Cat. Putting the BWB in her place, in regards to Brienne, is just.......nothing. Oh well, they, D&D, like nothing.

And, I'm one of the few book readers that is perhaps neutral on LSH. I think the zombie thing is getting out of hand, and the dead, not dead, UnDead, but I do understand the importance of her to Brienne's story, even to Cat's children and to Cat herself. She's a vengeful revenant that needs to be put down, IMO, hopefully learning about Cat;s children first. Regardless of my personal feelings on too many Undead creatures, I don't think LS was the one to cut, or over tamper with.......storywise.

I totally agree! I hated it when she came back from the dead! but I still think GRRM has something important for her to do.
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This is actually so like what the show has been doing. Taking a complex and compelling situation and dumbing it down and making changes for no damn reason at all, just because they can

exactly.

some people only seem to be looking at LSH from the perspective of plot - 'oh, they can achieve this part of the story through this other character so what is the point of her.' this completely misses the obvious and overarching fact that this is Catelyn Stark, reanimated - one of the major characters in the books, the one who suffered perhaps the most upsetting and horrific death. this moment in the books is so powerful and shocking, and it creates a massive table-turning sense of 'anything could happen now'. it also throws all these questions up into the air about the Starks and how LSH might meet some of them again, if she is going to help Brienne and find some of her past self again, if she is going to instigate a second Red Wedding. she is a compelling figurehead for a massive behind the scenes revenge scenario that takes place throughout the Riverlands for tons of AFFC, even if we don't physically see her until the very end. Stoneheart's appearance massively enhances the background drama of ASOIAF from AFFC onwards. this is the reason why so many fans feel so strongly about her, and why there was such an uproar when she wasn't seen at the end of season 4.

her presence also seems to be tying into a much greater plot, and the fact that Jeyne Westerling is going to be in the prologue of TWOW - who is currently en route to the Crag from Riverrun, suggests that this travelling party may be intercepted by LSH's group. As we know, prologues always end in the death of someone or another, and I hope we will be seeing this travelling party through the eyes of a Frey... anyway, there is no doubt that Stoneheart has a big effect on Brienne's storyline in the books whatever happens, and things look to be heading that way for Jaime too at the end of ADWD. to say she is completely irrelevant or pointless to me suggests a real lack of engagement with the text.

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