What do you think of this map?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Nice work.

But Glover and Tallhart lands are actually Stark lands, they are no Lords in their own right.

[Game Of Thrones]

Nice work.

But Glover and Tallhart lands are actually Stark lands, they are no Lords in their own right.

Did GRRM or Ran/Elio confirm this?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

That they're no Lords? Yes.

[The Holy Goat]

Did GRRM or Ran/Elio confirm this?

Glover and Tallhart are technically Masterly houses, not Lordly houses. So though they are 'lords and nobles', they aren't technically 'Lords'. It also seems like Winterfell holds quite a lot of sway over them. That's what we know I think.

[Royce da Bronze Yohn]

Glover and Tallhart are masterly houses as opposed to lordly houses. As far as what that means I'm not sure.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Glover and Tallhart are masterly houses as opposed to lordly houses. As far as what that means I'm not sure.

They lack a lot of juidicial and administrative rights. For example, they explicitly lack the rights of pit and gallows, which means they are unable to judge capital crimes. Winterfell has to do that.

Probably a lot of taxes, tolls and other stuffs as well, though that's not explicitly confirmed.

All that stuff make their holdings part of the Stark lands as opposed to proper Lords.

[The Wolves]

So the Starks control like all of the Wolfswood?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Basically. I guess that's the cause for the name as well.

[Slavers Bay City Rollers]

Here's a political map I've made. Territories are based on references from the books, and when no information is known I've stuck to natural borders (on this map) and relative sizes based on population/military strength.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_Oe87YPtbWbQWJ1VnNVMmU4T00/edit

Nicely done. I'm a total nerd for things like these.

[The Wolves]

Basically. I guess that's the cause for the name as well.

Thanks and whoa the Starks' lands are very big.

[Snarky]

Nice work man! Have you though about do this for any part of Essos?

[The Academic Wolf]

Nice work.

But Glover and Tallhart lands are actually Stark lands, they are no Lords in their own right.

Out of curiosity, where do the Cerwyns fall? Are they Lordly or Masterly Houses? Looking at this map, I would be amazed if they were Lordly, but they could be I suppose.

Even removing Glover, Tallhart, and Cerwyn lands, the Stark lands are large. I do not think that one single vassal has more land then they do, not even Manderly (especially when the corrections are added, e.g. only from the White Knife). This at least makes it clear why the Starks where able to become the Kings in the North. Even if Karstark lands where once Bolton lands, that only puts the Boltons on about par with the Starks.

If Dustin land does extend as far this thread believes however, then they really should be the second most powerful House in the North- as they seem to possibly have more land than the Starks (if their lands go to the White Knife).

[Amoracchius]

Great stuff. Thank you very much for putting in the effort. Hopefully the next book will have enough info to help you fill in the rest of Westeros.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Out of curiosity, where do the Cerwyns fall? Are they Lordly or Masterly Houses? Looking at this map, I would be amazed if they were Lordly, but they could be I suppose.

Even removing Glover, Tallhart, and Cerwyn lands, the Stark lands are large. I do not think that one single vassal has more land then they do, not even Manderly (especially when the corrections are added, e.g. only from the White Knife). This at least makes it clear why the Starks where able to become the Kings in the North. Even if Karstark lands where once Bolton lands, that only puts the Boltons on about par with the Starks.

If Dustin land does extend as far this thread believes however, then they really should be the second most powerful House in the North- as they seem to possibly have more land than the Starks (if their lands go to the White Knife).

Lord Cerwyn.

The difference between Lord and knight/master isn't size of the holdings, but legal rights and how closely that ties them to their liege. For example, Lord Baelish was a Lord in his own right as well, despite having less than 0.1% of the manpower and associated stuff Tallhart or Glover had.

[Nittanian]

They lack a lot of juidicial and administrative rights. For example, they explicitly lack the rights of pit and gallows, which means they are unable to judge capital crimes. Winterfell has to do that.

Probably a lot of taxes, tolls and other stuffs as well, though that's not explicitly confirmed.

All that stuff make their holdings part of the Stark lands as opposed to proper Lords.

Additionally, in AGOT Ned tells Cat to have Helman Tallhart and Galbart Glover raise a hundred bowmen each to fortify Moat Cailin, even though there are closer houses like the Dustins and Manderlys.

If Dustin land does extend as far this thread believes however, then they really should be the second most powerful House in the North- as they seem to possibly have more land than the Starks (if their lands go to the White Knife).

At Winterfell, Robert tells Ned, "Bogs and forests and fields, and scarcely a decent inn north of the Neck. I've never seen such a vast emptiness. Where are all your people?" The bogs would be the Neck, the forests could be the southeastern wolfswood, and the fields could be the barrowlands.

[Free Northman Reborn]

One of Manderly's titles is Warden of the White Knife. His men run the riverboats that trade up and down the White Knife and he is tasked with defending it.

I therefore doubt that his rule only extends to the eastern shore of the river. Most likely the lands on the West bank of the river also belong to him, and maybe for a few days ride to the west. But clearly it does not stretch all the way to the Kingsroad. So somewhere between the Kingsroad and the White Knife, the Dustin lands end and the Manderly lands begin. Where that border is exactly is difficult to pinpoint.

The White Knife seems to be a fast flowing river, so it likely has carved a large river valley into the landscape over the ages. This valley likely stretches for a day or more's ride in either direction and is probably bordered by some type of high ground or hills or something. I would imagine that on the western bank, the edge of this river valley would form a natural boundary between the Manderly lands and the Barrowlands.

[Free Northman Reborn]

What I like about a map like this is the context it gives us for the troop numbers from various regions.

We know the Karstarks have raised 3000 men to date. And we can see the size and location of their territory. It is in the far North, meaning it is cold, and it is heavily forested, meaning it is sparsely populated.

We see the Mountain clans are equally far North and are located up in inhospitable mountains, and they have raised around 4000 men to date - men with Robb plus men with Stannis.

So when we see the Ryswells, Dustins, Hornwoods, Flints of Widows Watch and Manderlys all ruling similar sized territories or larger, but hundreds of miles to the South in warmer more fertile areas, it is obvious that they must be able to at least match, and probably exceed the Karstark numbers.

Take lord Karstark's 3000 number and use that to logically allocate army sizes to each of the other regions on this map, and you quickly come to a true ballpark armed strength for the North which far outmatches the paltry numbers that have been bandied about as a likely total figure up to now.

[Lord Stark]

A very good map, and well researched.

A few comments and things I would change.

1. As has been mentioned, House Manderly only seems to rule from the east of the White Knife, at least this is what Wyman implies to Davos. Even still, I think you have House Manderly much too large. They may influence all the lands east of the White Knife, but we know that House Locke, and House Flint of Widow's Watch are not vassals of his. Likewise, we have no reason to believe that House Woolfield is one of the dozen petty lords sworn to House Manderly, and except for the names, no reason to believe that they would control the area of Ramsgate, and the Sheephead Hills, which would be a rather large chunk of land on par with the great lords of the north. House Woolfield is just as likely to be a vassal of House Manderly, as it is of House Hornwood, House Locke, or even House Flint, or as even being a great house of the North, that we just have not heard of yet. I wouldn't be surprised if it did turn out that they ruled over Ramsgate, and Sheephead Hills, and were in fact a great house, just one that because of the story, we haven't heard about. This area of the North seems to have the best cilmate, and makes sense for it to be filled with more great houses then in the other parts of the North.

Even with that question mark though, House Locke is much too small, and I think that they are more likely to control the eastern coast to Ramsgate, with House Manderly only controlling the coast around mouth of the White Knife. We know that House Locke, before the arrival of House Manderly, controlled the Wolf's Den for 200 years, so I feel that they likely control much of the area which you have as House Manderly. House Flint held it for almost 100 years, but that could be a new branch of the clan becoming a new house or one of the other houses, we don't know. Either way I think that the eastern half of their lands belong to either House Locke, House Flint, maybe even, House Hornwood, or by chance, and a long one, by House Woolfield, but that is just a theory which I don;t know if I believe.

2. This is minor, but Clan Burley, their banner is a white knife in a blue pile. I think the clan is either located somewhere in the Lonely Hills, or in the east of the Northern Mountains, and their lands are where the White Knife starts. So they are either in the Lonely Hills, or they are in the mountains where minor rivers and streams from Long Lake before it flows out into the White Knife.

3. House Glover and House Tallhart are the lowest rank of nobles. They likely rule within the personal lands of House Stark. Both Ned and Robb make use of them, which makes sense that they would make use of just minor nobles, because they are sworn directly to House Stark, and they rule in their name, on their personal lands, and so have more contact with Winterfell then the great lords of the North. This also explains why lords like the Greatjon Umber seemed to look down on them, and why their seats of power are so poor, small, and weak compared to others. House Glover might have houses/clans sworn to them as well, but these Masterly ranked houses/clans, would likely rule over small Holdfasts like we have seen in the Riverlands, and Crownlands, tiny little things that are just a tower or towerhouse, or just estates, or just even just villages of the lands they were granted, because they don;t have the wealth to build a holdfast.

4. I think that the west coast, Stoney Shore and Sea Dragon Point, are also House Stark lands, either that or we have yet more unnamed great houses of the North to learn about. For them to be House Stark lands would make alot of sense to me. If we look at the Ironborn invasion, while the whole think was the plan of a moron, the smart part of it would be that only the lands of House Stark are attacked. This explains why there are no leaders to rally behind besides Rodrik. Any great lord of the North, or those he left behind in charge as he went south, would be a rally point at the invasion time. This wouldn't just be a matter of the North being invaded, and invaded by raiders, but their own personal lands being attacked, and we see with House Manderly, House Hornwood, and House Bolton, even when you march south, you have the manpower to defend, and attack those next to you.

Instead what we get mostly is House Stark members, and minor lords taking up the fight, and the major lords other then a few close by such of Cerwyn, sitting back, and protecting their own lands. House Tallhart sends men far from their lands to the Stoney Shore, it never made much sense in my eyes, as they would be crossing other lords lands, unless they are staying within the lands of House Stark. It also explains why Asha feels she could take Sea Dragon Point for herself, as it wouldn;t be displacing another noble, but instead of taking from House Stark lands, and makes it easier to create a peace.

5. I agree that Flint's Finger likely rules over the forest, but that is only a guess.

6. House Cerwyn. Know it is a half days ride from Winterfell. For this reason I think that House Cerwyn is likely a new great house of the north, and was instead only a petty lord of House Stark not to long ago, maybe as recently as Robert's Rebellion, but this is just a theory I have. At any rate, we don;t know where the castle itself sits. although we could use the HBO map, which fits closely with this one. This is a good guess for them, but I think could change very much.

Overall, a very nice map, and I enjoyed it alot,.

[Nittanian]

1. As has been mentioned, House Manderly only seems to rule from the east of the White Knife, at least this is what Wyman implies to Davos. Even still, I think you have House Manderly much too large. They may influence all the lands east of the White Knife, but we know that House Locke, and House Flint of Widow's Watch are not vassals of his. Likewise, we have no reason to believe that House Woolfield is one of the dozen petty lords sworn to House Manderly, and except for the names, no reason to believe that they would control the area of Ramsgate, and the Sheephead Hills, which would be a rather large chunk of land on par with the great lords of the north. House Woolfield is just as likely to be a vassal of House Manderly, as it is of House Hornwood, House Locke, or even House Flint, or as even being a great house of the North, that we just have not heard of yet. I wouldn't be surprised if it did turn out that they ruled over Ramsgate, and Sheephead Hills, and were in fact a great house, just one that because of the story, we haven't heard about. This area of the North seems to have the best cilmate, and makes sense for it to be filled with more great houses then in the other parts of the North.

Even with that question mark though, House Locke is much too small, and I think that they are more likely to control the eastern coast to Ramsgate, with House Manderly only controlling the coast around mouth of the White Knife. We know that House Locke, before the arrival of House Manderly, controlled the Wolf's Den for 200 years, so I feel that they likely control much of the area which you have as House Manderly. House Flint held it for almost 100 years, but that could be a new branch of the clan becoming a new house or one of the other houses, we don't know. Either way I think that the eastern half of their lands belong to either House Locke, House Flint, maybe even, House Hornwood, or by chance, and a long one, by House Woolfield, but that is just a theory which I don;t know if I believe.

The GRRM-approved app written by Ran and Linda states that the Sheepshead Hills and Broken Branch are within the dominion of House Manderly and that Ramsgate owes its allegiance to them.

[CharlesW]

Cool, looks great.