Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-read Project Part V: ADWD

[MoIaF]

Welcome to the Daenerys Re-read Project!

Before we get started with our discussion, Id like to take a moment to thank the amazing group of posters who have agreed be part of the team analyzing Dany's chapters.

• Annara Snow
• Arya kiddin'
• BearQueen87
• GoldenFleece2
• HelenaAndTheMachine
• MoIaF
• PatrickStormborn
• SeanF
• Suzanna Stormborn
• The Good Queen Alysanne
• TheMysteriousOne

Now lets get down to business:

The aim of the re-read project is to gain a better understanding of Dany's character: by analyzing her motivations and her unique prospective. We would also like to gain a better understanding of the (very distinct) environment in which she finds herself. The structure of the re-read will be a chapter by chapter review. Each week one of us will be presenting a chapter for discussion. We will be summarizing / analyzing all of Dany's 31 chapters as well as Barristans 4 chapters.

We want to have a clear discussion looking objectively at the text. This isnt a appreciation thread so we ask that posters stay focus on the discussion at hand.

As with most re-reads there are a few ground rules which we would appreciate you follow:

• Discussion should focus on the chapters of the week (or previous chapters). You can reference future chapters if necessary for the discussion, but please stay on topic.
• When discussion please refrain from making unsubstantiated comments or be disrespectful towards other posters. We are aiming to do an objective analysis and it would be greatly appreciated if we stay on topic and not argue with each other about our personal feeling about the character.
• Your observations are very important to our discussion; if you find instances of foreshadowing, interesting symbolism, important parallels with other characters or other thoughts that can add to our discussion please share them with us. When ever possible quote from the text, it'll help enrich the discussion.

Below you will find the schedule for our discussion. We aim to stick to the schedule as closely as possible; however, we ask that you bear with us if there are any delays.

ADwD
Daenerys I 7/6/14 PatickStormborn
Daenerys II 7/13/14 TheMysteriousOne
Daenerys III 7/20/14 BearQueen87
Daenerys IV 7/27/14 Suzanna Stormborn
Daenerys V 8/3/14 Annara Snow
Daenerys VI 8/10/14 MoIaF
Daenerys VII 8/17/14 Queen Alysanne
Daenerys VIII 8/24/14 SeanF
Daenerys IX 9/7/14 MoIaF
Daenerys X 10/12/14 QueenAlysanne

Barristan I 9/21/14 Parwan
Barristan II 9/25/14 Parwan
Barristan II 9/30/14 HelenaAndTheMachine
Barristan IV 10/5/14 HelenaAndTheMachine

Tyrion II 7/9/14 Mladen
Tyrion III 7/16/14 Mladen
Tyrion VI 7/30/14 HelenaAndTheMachine
Tyrion VII 8/6/14 HelenaAndTheMachine
Tyrion VIII 8/13/14 BearQueen87
Tyrion IX 8/19/14 BearQueen87
Tyrion X 8/27/14 Suzanna Stormborn
Tyrion XI 8/31/14 BearQueen87
Tyrion XII 9/13/14 Suzanna Stormborn

Quentyn I 7/23/14 Suzanna Stormborn
Quentyn II 8/2/14 HelenaAndTheMachine
Quentyn III 9/3/14 MoIaF
Quentyn IV 9/17/14 Queen Alysanne

Here you'll find our previous discussion of Dany's AGoT, ACoK, and ASoS chapters:

AGoT

Daenerys I 1/5/14 Queen Alysanne
Daenerys II 1/12/14 MoIaF
Daenerys III 1/19/14 SeanF
Daenerys IV 1/26/14 MoIaF
Daenerys V 2/2/14 MoIaF / GoldenFleece2
Daenerys VI 2/9/14 Annara Snow
Daenerys VII 2/16/14 Suzanna Stormborn
Daenerys VIII 2/23/14 Arya kiddin
Daenerys IX 3/2/14 TheMysteriousOne
Daenerys X 3/9/14 PatrickStormborn

ACoK
Daenerys I 3/23/14 GoldenFleece2
Daenerys II 3/30/14 Queen Alysanne
Daenerys III 4/6/14 SeanF
Daenerys IV 4/13/14 MoIaF
Daenerys V 4/20/14 Suzanna Sromborn

ASoS
Daenerys I 5/4/14 PatrickStormborn
Daenerys II 5/11/14 MoIaF
Daenerys III 5/18/14 Annara Snow
Daenerys IV 6/1/14 MoIaF
Daenerys V 6/22/14 TheMysteriousOne
Daenerys VI 7/2/14 Queen Alysanne

Resources:
There have been a few Daenerys re-reads in the past and I though I'd add links to them as they might be helpful to us in our re-read.

• A Daenerys Character Arc Reread I
• A Daenerys Character Arc Reread II
• A Daenerys Character Arc Reread III
• Daenerys: Rethinking and Remapping a Protagonist
• Dragon stirring - A Heretical look at Dany

[BearQueen87]

We moved! I'm re-posting just for ease since my chapter analysis is the last post on the previous thread.

A Dance With Dragons

Tyrion VIII

“You are eager to behold the world’s deliverer?”

Summary

Aboard the Selasori Qhoran, Tyrion Lannister, Ser Jorah Mormont, Penny, and Moqorro, the Red Priest of Volantis, sail ever closer to Slaver’s Bay and Daenerys Targaryen. Life on the ship is tedious and dull and Tyrion comes to understand why each principle player is seeking the Dragon Queen. While looking into his fires, Moqorro tells Tyrion about the visions he sees including others who are also seeking Dany.

The Red Priest and the Lion

The High Priest of R’hllor, Benerro of Volantis, has set Moqorro on a journey to Slaver’s Bay with the intention of bringing the Lord of Light to Daenerys. Moqorro is described as “black as pitch, his hair as white as snow; the flames tattooed across his cheeks and brow yellow and orange.” I think this gives him an otherworldly quality. Moqorro seems to straddle a lot of lines: in a world of gray characters, he is both black and white. He is both slave and powerful religious leader. He is someone who follows and believes in the divine, yet the divine did not choose him.

Moqorro and his guardsman are all slaves. It’s important to remember that Dany has become a sign of hope for the enslaved. For the former slave owners, Dany is dangerous as she threatens to upset the slave trade further and their livelihood. But for those in chains and collars, she is their deliverer. This is particularly true in Volantis where the unrest is becoming palpable. Because of her survival in the fires of Drogo’s pyre, the “birth” of dragons, and her liberation of Slaver’s Bay, Benerro and Moqorro believe Dany to be Azor Ahai Reborn.

Tyrion finds himself curious about Moqorro and what the red priest sees in the flames: “Does he see days yet to come, as he claims?” When Tyrion finally asks what Moqorro sees, we get the following:

”Dragons,” Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros. He spoke it very well, with hardly a trace of accent. No doubt that was one reasons the high priest Benerro had chosen him to bring the faith of R’hllor to Daenerys Targaryen. “Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.”

The audience has already met every single one of these dragons.

Old and Young:

• Aemon Targaryen and Jon Snow
  • Because of the structure of Feast and Dance, we must remember that at the same time Tyrion is sailing toward Meereen, Old Maester Aemon is sailing with Samwell toward Old Town. Before Feast is over, Aemon comes to the realization that Dany is The Prince(ss) That Was Promised and desperately wishes he could join her to show Dany the way.
  • If you accept that R+L = J, then Jon Snow is the last living son of Rhaegar Targaryen, and therefore Dany’s own nephew. Dany is 9 months younger than Jon, which might classify her as the Young Dragon, but given the connection and relationship between Aemon (old dragon) and Jon, I believe this interpretation makes more sense.

True and False

• Daenerys Targaryen and Aegon Targaryen (called Young Griff)
  • Dany is, obviously, the true dragon because there is no questioning her heritage. She is the daughter of the last Targaryen King, Aerys II, and his sister-wife, Rhaella. This might also set up a future conflict between fAegon and Dany in Dance of the Dragons 2.0.
  • Admittedly, we do not have confirmation that the blue-haired boy who called himself Young Griff is a fraud, but most of the evidence seems to point in this direction. Chances are, Young Griff is Illyrio Mopatis’ son by Serra. If Illyrio is, in fact, descendent from the Blackfyre line then his son is a false dragon. This false dragon also refers back to Dany’s vision in the House of the Undying in which she saw a murmur’s dragon amongst a cheering crowd.

Bright and Dark

• Potentially Illyrio Moptais and Lord Varys
  • One of them is a Blackfyre and one of them is a Brightflame. For more on this idea, I would recommend THIS thread.

And You [Tyrion]

• Tyrion has interacted with almost every single one of these dragons, however briefly. The only one he has yet to meet is Dany, but he is on his way. When Tyrion and Dany finally meet (hopefully in Winds of Winter) he will be able to tell her about the False, Bright, and Dark Dragons. Tyrion may not know that Aemon is Aemon Targaryen and he certainly does not know that Jon is Rhaegar’s son.

This is not the first time Tyrion Lannister has been referred to as a small man with a big shadow. From Jon’s first POV in A Game of Thrones

”Remember this, boy. All dwarfs may be bastards, yet not all bastards need be dwarfs.” And with that he turned and sauntered back into the feast, whistling a tune. When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment, Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king.

And from Tyrion’s own POV in A Clash of Kings

So power is a murmmer’s trick?” “A shadow on the wall,” Varys murmured, “yet shadows can kill. And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow.

What are we to make of this? I believe that Tyrion Lannister will be absolutely vital to Dany taking Westeros from fAegon, possibly as the Hand to the Queen. Also he will be instrumental in the War for the Dawn. I think he may even be one of the three dragon heads. The fact that Moqorro sees him snarling gives him a dangerous animal type quality, as if he were a metaphorical dragon. Standing in the midst of all these dragons, he will shape what is to come. He served as advisor to the False Dragon (even if it was to lead him astray) and I believe Tyrion will be a true councilor for both the true and young dragon in the future.

Apart from various dragons, Moqorro sees another shadow that is coming for Dany. This one is not so pleasant:

“Have you seen these others in your fires?” he [Tyrion] asked, warily.

“Only their shadows,” Moqorro said. “One most of all. A tall and twisted thing with one black eye and ten long arms, sailing on a sea of blood.”

This is an obvious reference to Euron “Crow’s Eye” Greyjoy, a twisted and horrifying man who has sent his younger brother, Victarion, on a mission to bring Dany and her dragons to him so that he might take Westeros for the Iron Born (and himself). Victarion is carrying a horn that Euron believes will bring the dragons to heel. The ten long arms is a reference to the Greyjoy sigil of a kraken. The one black eye is probably a reference to the patch he wears over his left eye.

The Dragon Queen and the Lion

In this chapter we are treated to Tyrion’s own internal conflict concerning how Daenerys will receive him. When Moqorro asks if he is eager to behold the world’s deliverer, Tyrion thinks: “Yes and no. The world’s deliverer may snick off my head or give me to her dragons as a savory.” Later when Tyrion and Penny are discussing Penny’s future in Meereen, Tyrion attempts to assuage the dwarf’s fears by presenting Dany in a positive light

”Daenerys has a kind heart and a generous nature.” It was what she needed to hear. “She will find a place for you at her court, I don’t doubt. A safe place, beyond my sister’s reach.”

However, Tyrion is less than sure where his own neck is concerned

Penny turned back to him. “And you will be there too.”

Unless Daenerys decides she needs some Lannister blood to pay for the Targaryen blood my brother shed. “I will.”

Despite having a keen insight into Dany (as evidenced by his speech to Young Griff in Tyrion VI), Tyrion does not know how Dany will receive him. His Lannister blood is not going to make her happy and he knows it. He has classified Dany both positively and negatively. On the positive side he has called her kind, generous, and a protector. But on the negative side, he knows she might be cruel and vengeful. As he draws closer to Dany, Tyrion begins to recognize that this is a coin toss. He really has no assurances that Dany would accept him (and his hate) into her camp. But if he wants Casterly Rock and revenge on Cersei this is his best course.

The Bear and the Lion

Ser Jorah and Tyrion do not get along. Jorah has taken the chains off Tyrion so he is free to move about the ship, but they have conflicting personalities. Tyrion describes Jorah:

Twice exiled, and small wonder, Tyrion thought. I’d exile him too if I could. The man is cold, brooding, sullen, deaf to humor. And those are his good points.

Tyrion, by contrast, is normally full of witticisms, humor, and japes. However, these two might be more alike that they realize. Jorah hides his insecurities concerning how Dany will react to his return behind his sullen and brooding nature; Tyrion hides behind jokes and sarcasm, but both of them fear what will become of them when the come face to face with Dany.

Before he is literally chained, Jorah acts like a caged animal. He is restless and on edge. He spends “most of his waking hours pacing the forecastle or leaning on the rail, gazing out to sea.” Tyrion’s observations into people help him understand why Jorah is this way:

Looking for his silver queen. Looking for Daenerys, willing the ship to sail faster. Well, I might do the same if Tysha waited in Meereen.

Because we never get a Jorah POV, we have to understand him through the eyes of others. Tyrion, thankfully, is somewhat of an expert at assessing people. Jorah, obviously, is in love with Dany. He wants to return to Meereen to try and find forgiveness and redemption. Tyrion likens Jorah’s feelings to his [Tyrion] own ill-fated relationship with Tysha, his wife. Tyrion and Tysha were in love, but Tywin and Jaime came between them in a gross act of betrayal. Similarly, Jorah’s love for Dany (and Dany’s love for Jorah, however you want to personally define that love) is true, but an act of betrayal has come between them. Just as Tyrion is longing to find Tysha and ask forgiveness, Jorah wants forgiveness from Dany.

I believe that Tyrion knows that Jorah will be an ally. Whatever has happened between Jorah and Dany, the knight still knows the Queen better than anyone. He was there from the start, from wedding to fire to Qarth to Slaver’s Bay. Where Jorah is personally failing is that he still believes he can offer up excuses to Dany instead of admitting his own faults. If he presents Tyrion to Dany, all will be forgiven, but that’s somewhat backwards logic because she is just as likely to be angry that he brought a “dog” into her camp. What Dany wants from Jorah is to hear that he’s sorry and that he was wrong. Jorah’s own journey back to Dany cannot be one of the heroic knight come to rescue his lady fair, but of a humble man who admits to his errors to the woman he has wronged. One more note here, but I think Tyrion recognizes that Jorah loves Dany as both queen (looking for his silver queen) and a woman (looking for Daenerys), something we know Dany is struggling with in Meereen.

Potential Foreshadowing

Moqorro explains to Tyrion that the name Selasori Qhoran translates to The Fragrant Steward. Previously, Quaithe came to Dany in Meereen and warned her about the perfumed seneschal. This bit of prophecy might refer to the ship or someone on aboard, though this is problematic as both Moqorro and Tyrion are included in Quaithe’s prophecy apart from the perfumed seneschal. It could be referring to Jorah since he is also on board, but given Quaithe’s dire prediction this seems unlikely. In the prophecy, the men listed are coming for her dragons or for their own political gain, but Jorah stands alone as someone who desires neither a real dragon nor political gain. Because of this, the name “The Fragrant Steward” is probably a red herring.

We get our first “glimpse” of the smoking ruins of Valyria in this chapter. Since A Game of Thrones, the empire of Valyria has always been in the background somehow: The Doom visited it, magic went out of the world afterwards, myth and legend about the place sprung up, the Targaryens escaped from there. Valyria fits very neatly with the LOST WORLD trope stemming from the story of Atlantis.

It was written that on the day of Doom every hill for five hundred miles had split asunder to fill the air with ash and smoke and fire, blazes so hot and hungry that even the dragons in the sky were engulfed and consumed. Great rents had opened in the earth, swallowing palaces, temples, entire towns. Lakes boiled or turned to acid, mountains burst, fiery fountains spewed molten rock a thousand feet into the air, red clouds rained down dragonglass and the black blood of demons, and to the north the ground splintered and collapsed and fell in on itself and an angry sea came rushing in. The proudest city in all the world was gone in an instant, its fabled empire vanished in a day, the Lands of the Long Summer scorched and drowned and blighted

Even Moqorro warns Tyrion against looking too long at the fires of Valyria for “those are the fires of god’s own wrath, and no human flame can match them. We are small creatures, men.”

I believe that we will see Valyria in a future book, in particular when Dany begins her march westward toward Westeros, the map Xaro gave her in hand. On dragon back, protected by whatever magic she posses herself, she might visit the city of her ancestors and even find something among the ruins to aid her in conquest. The next sentence has a bit of a spoiler for Winds, so I’ll block it.

GRRM has said that in WOW, Dany will embrace her houses’ words and will be coming home. Many assume that to mean Westeros, and it’s likely that is part of it, but before the Doom, the Dragon Lords lived in Valyria. It is also “home” even if it is one that is further back in Targaryen history

LINK

Conclusion

This chapter serves as a transition for Tyrion along his very long journey. He has gone from false dragon and is on his way to the true dragon, but in between there is a rather tedious (in his words) trip in which he tries to understand not only Dany better, but also himself. His relationship, or budding friendship, with Penny helps keep him grounded as the two grow closer. This chapter also helps show us how various characters view Daenerys. To the slaves, Dany is a mythic messianic deliverer, as evidenced by Moqorro. She is also a woman who is loved and a personal redeemer, as seen through Jorah’s eyes. And for Tyrion, Dany is a coin toss, either they can help each other, or she’ll feed him to a dragon.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Sorry for my absence guys. It can't be helped right now. Ill be back on and caught up as soon as I can :)

[HexMachina]

We moved! I'm re-posting just for ease since my chapter analysis is the last post on the previous thread.

A Dance With Dragons

Tyrion VIII

“You are eager to behold the world’s deliverer?”

Thank you BearQueen87, that was a really nice analysis :)

The Red Priest and the Lion

The High Priest of R’hllor, Benerro of Volantis, has set Moqorro on a journey to Slaver’s Bay with the intention of bringing the Lord of Light to Daenerys. Moqorro is described as “black as pitch, his hair as white as snow; the flames tattooed across his cheeks and brow yellow and orange.” I think this gives him an otherworldly quality. Moqorro seems to straddle a lot of lines: in a world of gray characters, he is both black and white. He is both slave and powerful religious leader. He is someone who follows and believes in the divine, yet the divine did not choose him.

Moqorro and his guardsman are all slaves. It’s important to remember that Dany has become a sign of hope for the enslaved. For the former slave owners, Dany is dangerous as she threatens to upset the slave trade further and their livelihood. But for those in chains and collars, she is their deliverer. This is particularly true in Volantis where the unrest is becoming palpable. Because of her survival in the fires of Drogo’s pyre, the “birth” of dragons, and her liberation of Slaver’s Bay, Benerro and Moqorro believe Dany to be Azor Ahai Reborn.

Tyrion finds himself curious about Moqorro and what the red priest sees in the flames: “Does he see days yet to come, as he claims?” When Tyrion finally asks what Moqorro sees, we get the following:

The audience has already met every single one of these dragons.

Old and Young:

• Aemon Targaryen and Jon Snow
  • Because of the structure of Feast and Dance, we must remember that at the same time Tyrion is sailing toward Meereen, Old Maester Aemon is sailing with Samwell toward Old Town. Before Feast is over, Aemon comes to the realization that Dany is The Prince(ss) That Was Promised and desperately wishes he could join her to show Dany the way.
  • If you accept that R+L = J, then Jon Snow is the last living son of Rhaegar Targaryen, and therefore Dany’s own nephew. Dany is 9 months younger than Jon, which might classify her as the Young Dragon, but given the connection and relationship between Aemon (old dragon) and Jon, I believe this interpretation makes more sense.

True and False

• Daenerys Targaryen and Aegon Targaryen (called Young Griff)
  • Dany is, obviously, the true dragon because there is no questioning her heritage. She is the daughter of the last Targaryen King, Aerys II, and his sister-wife, Rhaella. This might also set up a future conflict between fAegon and Dany in Dance of the Dragons 2.0.
  • Admittedly, we do not have confirmation that the blue-haired boy who called himself Young Griff is a fraud, but most of the evidence seems to point in this direction. Chances are, Young Griff is Illyrio Mopatis’ son by Serra. If Illyrio is, in fact, descendent from the Blackfyre line then his son is a false dragon. This false dragon also refers back to Dany’s vision in the House of the Undying in which she saw a murmur’s dragon amongst a cheering crowd.

Bright and Dark

• Potentially Illyrio Moptais and Lord Varys
  • One of them is a Blackfyre and one of them is a Brightflame. For more on this idea, I would recommend THIS thread.

And You [Tyrion]

• Tyrion has interacted with almost every single one of these dragons, however briefly. The only one he has yet to meet is Dany, but he is on his way. When Tyrion and Dany finally meet (hopefully in Winds of Winter) he will be able to tell her about the False, Bright, and Dark Dragons. Tyrion may not know that Aemon is Aemon Targaryen and he certainly does not know that Jon is Rhaegar’s son.

This is not the first time Tyrion Lannister has been referred to as a small man with a big shadow. From Jon’s first POV in A Game of Thrones

And from Tyrion’s own POV in A Clash of Kings

What are we to make of this? I believe that Tyrion Lannister will be absolutely vital to Dany taking Westeros from fAegon, possibly as the Hand to the Queen. Also he will be instrumental in the War for the Dawn. I think he may even be one of the three dragon heads. The fact that Moqorro sees him snarling gives him a dangerous animal type quality, as if he were a metaphorical dragon. Standing in the midst of all these dragons, he will shape what is to come. He served as advisor to the False Dragon (even if it was to lead him astray) and I believe Tyrion will be a true councilor for both the true and young dragon in the future.

I sort of agree. Tyrion has interacted with almost every major player thus far (bar only Stannis and the Ironborn, I think) I definitely believe he will play an important part in advising various parties when Dany lands in Westeros, and possibly the War for Dawn too. However, its important to remember he also has his own agenda; revenge on Cersei, and claiming Casterly Rock. We should keep in mind that Tyrion may betray Dany if it is in his best interest. This is especially likely if Dany and Aegon do come into conflict. Which side does he choose? Its going to be interesting, that is for sure.

Apart from various dragons, Moqorro sees another shadow that is coming for Dany. This one is not so pleasant:

Have you seen these others in your fires?” he [Tyrion] asked, warily.

“Only their shadows,” Moqorro said. “One most of all. A tall and twisted thing with one black eye and ten long arms, sailing on a sea of blood.”

This is an obvious reference to Euron “Crow’s Eye” Greyjoy, a twisted and horrifying man who has sent his younger brother, Victarion, on a mission to bring Dany and her dragons to him so that he might take Westeros for the Iron Born (and himself). Victarion is carrying a horn that Euron believes will bring the dragons to heel. The ten long arms is a reference to the Greyjoy sigil of a kraken. The one black eye is probably a reference to the patch he wears over his left eye.

Just going to provide this quote:

The Dothraki sea,” Ser Jorah Mormont said as he reined to a halt beside her on the top of the ridge. Beneath them, the plain stretched out immense and empty, a vast flat expanse that reached to the distant horizon and beyond. It was a sea, Dany thought. Past here, there were no hills, no mountains, no trees nor cities nor roads, only the endless grasses, the tall blades rippling like waves when the winds blew.

“It’s so green,” she said.

“Here and now,” Ser Jorah agreed. “You ought to see it when it blooms, all dark red flowers from horizon to horizon, like a sea of blood. Come the dry season, and the world turns the color of old bronze.

Maybe nothing, seeing as the Dothraki sea is not currently blooming, but its an interesting thought. I agree with Euron being the vision though. He's reaching out with his long arm (i.e. Victarion) to claim Dany and her dragons.

I'll comment on the rest later when I've read more thoroughly

[BearQueen87]

Thank you BearQueen87, that was a really nice analysis :)

thanks!

I sort of agree. Tyrion has interacted with almost every major player thus far (bar only Stannis and the Ironborn, I think) I definitely believe he will play an important part in advising various parties when Dany lands in Westeros, and possibly the War for Dawn too. However, its important to remember he also has his own agenda; revenge on Cersei, and claiming Casterly Rock. We should keep in mind that Tyrion may betray Dany if it is in his best interest. This is especially likely if Dany and Aegon do come into conflict. Which side does he choose? Its going to be interesting, that is for sure.

I've seen people speculate that Tyrion might be the betrayal for love, and he'll betray Dany for Jaime. I see a few flaws in this. One, I'm not sure if Tyrion and Jaime will see each other again; two brothers coming back together out for forgiveness and love it a bit too sunshine and daises, I think. I also don't know if Tyrion will be able to forgive Jaime for the Tysha incident. Tyrion might be the betrayal for gold if it looks like he might loose out on Casterly Rock. That one seems more likely, IMO.

As for Aegon v. Dany, I very much believe that Tyrion would choose Dany. The girl has three dragons and by the time Dany and Aegon do meet up, Tyrion will have (hopefully) proven himself valuable, and my guess is that Dany makes him her Hand. I think Tyrion knows that Aegon is a long shot against the girl with dragons. I don't see him switching sides, especially after he played a part in getting Aegon to go the opposite direction from Dany.

Maybe nothing, seeing as the Dothraki sea is not currently blooming, but its an interesting thought. I agree with Euron being the vision though. He's reaching out with his long arm (i.e. Victarion) to claim Dany and her dragons.

Interesting quote.

[Parwan]

1. Ideas about slavery and freedom are important in this story.

2. When people criticize Daenerys Targaryen for not having a plan, they sometimes center on the idea that she just freed the slaves without regarding any social and economic consequences. She should have done the freeing more gradually, had some economic plan developed first, etc.

Let's take a look at these two items and some related matters.

1. In Daenerys, we have an interesting oxymoron--a revolutionary monarch. There was probably no way that revolution and monarchy were ever going to fit together comfortably in any situation. In Essos, there are some severe difficulties peculiar to the place. The red priests of Volantis head a slave movement that sees Dany as "the world's deliverer." This movement is very popular. However, it is not working toward anything that Daenerys Targaryen (or her current allies) would call "freedom." What the priests believe is that "we are all slaves of the Lord of Light." Benerro's tattoo is quite prominent. It seems that he was bought by the temple and rose through the ranks to become the high priest. Moqorro refers to himself in prayer, asking his god to "bless your slave." Put aside Dany's lack of religious training and her doubts about the theology of the red priests. The differences in basic political orientation point toward serious difficulties. Benerro and company very much believe that they are on Dany's side. It will be hard for her to be on their side.

There are other important straws in the wind of revolution. Dany, Barristan, and others know very little about Volantis, Selhorys, and such places. One would not expect them to. The idea of freedom has come to these places though. Qavo Nogarys knows this quite well. When he talks about "the girl's true sin" he is not thinking of R'hllor or any other god. He is purely concerned with secular "sins." The kitchen slaves are sharpening long knives, and not to slice up beef and lamb. This is thanks to the breaker of chains. All kinds of knife work might occur before the dragon queen even leaves Meereen. Do we praise her for this? Blame her for this? Right now, we can't do either. We don't even know exactly what "this" will be. We do know that those who start revolutions are often not the ones who end them.

We also know that the widow of the waterfront runs a secular operation. She is on the same side as the red priests (at least pretty much on the same side), but it's not clear that she is even a worshipper at the temple. She was freed some time ago. Her slave tattoos have been cut away. When she says, "tell her to come soon," she's not talking about theology or prophecy. She's interested in the coming war. The widow says it won't be the war the Volantenes want. Precisely what does she want? Good question. I'd say it's probably freedom of the type you and I and Dany favor. I can't be sure of this however.

2. All of this dynamism and uncertainty gives us a good reason to be skeptical of the criticisms of Dany that maintain she should have had some sort of well-developed plan for economic and social development. The queen started a war; she started a revolution. In a sense, this is what she needed to do. At any rate, she started it in Astapor. By the time she arrived in Meereen, it was too late to revise the emancipation and institute some step-by-step program. Even without the events beyond Slaver's Bay, the momentum of freedom is just too great. The Unsullied now have their own names and their own captains. There are tens of thousands of people who have legitimate expectations. Meereen fell in large part because the slaves (not those eight years old and younger) arose.

In addition to this, I stand by my assertion that things aren't that bad in Dany's city. The economy is fundamentally okay; the threats to it do not come from Daenerys Targaryen's policies. The queen's system of justice isn't that bad, especially compared to the systems we see in other parts of Martin's world. As far as cultural matters go, I am in basic agreement with those who say that Dany goes too far in accommodating the wishes of the former ruler's of Meereen.

I continue to maintain that Dany's main mistake was a failure to take control when she could have, not a lack of the sort of planning that few if any conquerers would engage in.

ETA: "Things aren't that bad" is a poor phrase. I'd amend it to say that things are bad, but this is mostly because of the queen's enemies. She can be blamed for a lot. A good bit of this involves things like not identifying enemies well, not dealing properly with enemies, making more enemies than she needed to, etc.

[Parwan]

Sorry, double post.

[BearQueen87]

1. Ideas about slavery and freedom are important in this story.

2. When people criticize Daenerys Targaryen for not having a plan, they sometimes center on the idea that she just freed the slaves without regarding any social and economic consequences. She should have done the freeing more gradually, had some economic plan developed first, etc.

Let's take a look at these two items and some related matters.

1. In Daenerys, we have an interesting oxymoron--a revolutionary monarch. There was probably no way that revolution and monarchy were ever going to fit together comfortably in any situation. In Essos, there are some severe difficulties peculiar to the place. The red priests of Volantis head a slave movement that sees Dany as "the world's deliverer." This movement is very popular. However, it is not working toward anything that Daenerys Targaryen (or her current allies) would call "freedom." What the priests believe is that "we are all slaves of the Lord of Light." Benerro's tattoo is quite prominent. It seems that he was bought by the temple and rose through the ranks to become the high priest. Moqorro refers to himself in prayer, asking his god to "bless your slave." Put aside Dany's lack of religious training and her doubts about the theology of the red priests. The differences in basic political orientation point toward serious difficulties. Benerro and company very much believe that they are on Dany's side. It will be hard for her to be on their side.

This is a really interesting idea. We talked in the last thread about Dany and her religious leanings--specifically that she doesn't seem to have any. But even if Benerro, et al. do declare her to be AAR, it would mean that Dany would be "chosen" but as a "slave" to the Lord of Light. And that's going to rub her the wrong way. A dragon is no slave. So she either has to change their entire outlook on their religious dogma or they're going to become quite antagonistic toward her for trying to upend their beliefs.

ETA: "Things aren't that bad" is a poor phrase. I'd amend it to say that things are bad, but this is mostly because of the queen's enemies. She can be blamed for a lot. A good bit of this involves things like not identifying enemies well, not dealing properly with enemies, making more enemies than she needed to, etc.

So her fault lies not with her ability to rule but in how she reacts to those who would oppose her?

[TheMysteriousOne]

A point that is often used against Dany is the rashness of her plan, and often her detractors bring up Lincoln's actions in Post-Civil War America as the optimal example of how enslaved persons should be liberated and assimilated into society. This irritates me to no end, because anyone with an indepth understanding of the Emancipation of African-Americans in the United States will know that it was not some beautiful act that quickly ameliorated the plight of black people in America. In fact, I believe that Dany's actions and the aftereffects of said actions are very comparable to those of Lincoln's.

Yes, slavery did not return to the United States, but until the 1960s (and arguably until very recently) African-Americans were treated like second-class citizens, and were murdered on extremely stupid pretenses, discriminated against, laughed at, ridiculed, and described as sub-human or even ape-like.

After slavery ended, most of the former slaves had absolutely nowhere to go. No welfare system was put in place, no meaningful compensation was given, and no chance for assimilation into American society was afforded. Most of the former slaves just stayed as 'paid' workers for their former masters. They were barely paid enough to purchase anything useful. So they were slaves in all but name. Like many of the former slaves in Slaver's Bay.

For another century after the Emancipation, African-Americans were the subject of all types of discrimination and stereotypes. Centuries of this hatred has severely affected African-Americans as a whole and is the cause of many of the disparities between the average black person and white person wrt to wealth and education.

So yes, Lincoln freed the slaves, but that did not really accomplish much of anything and was not some great revolution as many like to claim. However, one cannot say that this did not give former slaves hope or a sense of freedom; it did. It caused a chain reaction which led to the Civil Rights Movement. But even now, African-Americans have not truly achieved equality. White privilege still exists.

Essentially, Lincoln's liberation of American slaves was not some entirely cohesive, well-planned and helpful act. Regardless, the fight was worth it. I'm very sure that almost no black person is nostalgic for the old days. The emancipation did lead to something good, a century later. What is happening in Slaver's Bay is very similar to what occurred in post-Civil War America. For example, the Sons of the Harpy are very similar to the KKK. Who is to say that Dany's liberation of the slaves will not lead to a Civil Rights movement, or something very analogous? We know that her liberation of the slaves has led to hope. That is what matters.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I'm so lazy to quote... >_<

Two main things:

1. When Jorah sees Dany again, he's going to crack like a bitch and cry and beg forgiveness. And Dany will forgive her bear. It is known.

2. tWoW

I think Dany returning to Valyria is "to go forward you must go back".

[BearQueen87]

[snip]

American history is so not my forte, but this was a really well thought out post. And I'd say that Dany's liberation of Slaver's Bay HAS led to a sort of civil rights movement in Volantis. It's like fire...it catches.

I'm so lazy to quote... >_<

Two main things:

1. When Jorah sees Dany again, he's going to crack like a bitch and cry and beg forgiveness. And Dany will forgive her bear. It is known.

Indeed it is. It will be glorious to behold. *rocks back and forth* I can make it until then...I can make it until then....I can make it until then...

[A Bastard Snow]

I'm so lazy to quote... >_<

Two main things:

1. When Jorah sees Dany again, he's going to crack like a bitch and cry and beg forgiveness. And Dany will forgive her bear. It is known.

2. tWoW

I think Dany returning to Valyria is "to go forward you must go back".

Yea I think so also.Not sure how well that will go though as the place does not sound very inviting.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Great Analysis BearQueen

I think Tyrion is the smartest person amongst the people coming to Dany coming to Dany, he looks at all possible ways he could be received by her. Most of her other suitors like Vic and Aegon's Company think she is just a toy they will be able to pick and use.

I'd add that, that also makes him dangerous aswell to her.

Also in terms of Moqorro, I think he is wearing a glamour, I'm not sure whether the Moqorro here is the one wearing it or the one after the shipwreck.

I wrote this some time ago in another thread:

The text has two people that make comments on glamours.

So based on these two, glamours are illusions that only affect the observer and it seems the illusions are made by shadow and light and weaved to create an illusion. I think it's similar to light painting but since this is a magical story the painting can be kept constant and a camera isn't needed to capture the illusion.

I noticed something along those line in one of Victarion's chapter.

I don't know if it's just me but this looks like an illusion/glamour. Especially the fact that the colours of his tatoos change when he moves his head and at that point he is in bright light since he is at a fireplace, so shifting his head could affect the density of the light or darkness that is creating the glamour/illusion and thus revealing it a bit. Also the fact that the kindly man says they can dissolve before sharp eyes means that they are just illusions made by light and can be seen through if you look well. So it's possible the extra light from the fire in addition to his movement altered the illusion/glamour.

So my guess is that either someone is acting like the real Moqorro to get to Dany or after the shipwreck someone is acting like the Moqorro in this chapter. Either way whoever he is, Dany has to be wary of him since he is coming under a false look.

snip

snip

Really great, posts .

This goes in line with what GRRM mentioned in the video cade posted in the last thread. I don't believe he wrote the story for us to come to the conclusion that Dany's attempt to liberate slaves is not admirable because of the events that happened immediately after.

[HexMachina]

QueenAlysanne, that is a good point about the glamour. It could also be linked to the idea that Mel is not entirely...living. We see three Red Priests in-depth in the story. Two of them.seem to be of a higher order and are considerably inhuman (Mel with not needing food or sleep, Moqorro with his appearance and surviving the shipwreck). The other is, by his own admission, an embarassnent.to his temple, and so lower in the hierarchy. I think its possible that the more powerful Red Priests are not entirely...human, or.alive, and that is why they wear glamours and why Moqorro lives through the shipwreck - he is already "dead".

[SeanF]

Bear Queen Thanks, that's fine.

Parwan I disagree about the Red Priests and Dany. I think that being a slave to R'hllor is quite a different thing to being another human being's chattel. Bennero and Moqorro are enormously high-ranking figures, even if they are "slaves" to their god. I don't know if Melisandre remains technically a slave (and she may even be a heretic) but she is generally addressed as "Lady Melisandre". She started off as a temple prostitute, so it's clear that slaves to R'hllor can work their way up to the highest level of the organisation.

The religion contains both slaves and free people, I think that like the early Christians, social distinctions are not supposed to matter in the sight of their god. Even if the actual practice of buying children to join the religion were prohibited, I think that very many people in Essos would be keen for their children to be chosen to be chosen to serve a Red Temple.

[SeanF]

This is a really interesting idea. We talked in the last thread about Dany and her religious leanings--specifically that she doesn't seem to have any. But even if Benerro, et al. do declare her to be AAR, it would mean that Dany would be "chosen" but as a "slave" to the Lord of Light. And that's going to rub her the wrong way. A dragon is no slave. So she either has to change their entire outlook on their religious dogma or they're going to become quite antagonistic toward her for trying to upend their beliefs.

I don't know if the role of Azhor Ahai is to be a "slave" to R'hllor. AA seems to be somewhere between a god and a human being. Not exactly divine, but in some way, more than mortal. Given how many supernatural and miraculous experiences Daenerys has had I wouldn't be at all surprised if Moqorro managed to persuade her that she was indeed the reincarnation of Azhor Ahai. As a matter of fact, she might well be.

[MoIaF]

I'm so lazy to quote... >_<

Two main things:

2. tWoW

I think Dany returning to Valyria is "to go forward you must go back".

I don't think that Dany will be visiting Valyria.

If you notice the words given to Dany by Quiathe are almost completely opposite to the motto Dany has been using for four books. She went from 'If I look back I am lost' to "To go forward, I must go back".

While the first denotes a linear journey, a journey will little retrospect the second denotes a more circular journal where retrospection is key in order to move forward.

As we have been discussing recently, Dany’s rule of Meereen was surprisingly devoid of many of the previous lessons and skills she had learned in the past. In many ways she lost herself and her way.

Her Vision Quest in the Dorthraki sea was mainly about her finding herself and her way, her purpose, this accumulated with Daarios words (I give him full credit for this) that she had forgotten who she was and what she had been fighting for was the epiphany that brought about the “to go forward, I must go back.” It’s not so much a physical journey (though it partly is) rather than a more personal journey.

I don’t want to get too much into it as we haven’t reached the chapter but that’s the way I read her words.

[MoIaF]

I don't know if the role of Azhor Ahai is to be a "slave" to R'hllor. AA seems to be somewhere between a god and a human being. Not exactly divine, but in some way, more than mortal. Given how many supernatural and miraculous experiences Daenerys has had I wouldn't be at all surprised if Moqorro managed to persuade her that she was indeed the reincarnation of Azhor Ahai. As a matter of fact, she might well be.

I think the problem the red priest will encounter with Dany is that they are absolutes. Dany is going to already been very much engrained with the Dothraki per GRRM's comments that they will play a large role in TWOW. I just cannot see Dany setting aside the Dorthraki and or Unsullied for the red priest no matter what they say especially because she already so weary of magis and prophecies.

[BearQueen87]

I don't know if the role of Azhor Ahai is to be a "slave" to R'hllor. AA seems to be somewhere between a god and a human being. Not exactly divine, but in some way, more than mortal. Given how many supernatural and miraculous experiences Daenerys has had I wouldn't be at all surprised if Moqorro managed to persuade her that she was indeed the reincarnation of Azhor Ahai. As a matter of fact, she might well be.

Sure she might be AAR. But if she's supposed to be following some predetermined path set out by a god she doesn't really know and/or understand (and the one time it was brought up to her, she thinks that she wouldn't want to be forever at war) I can see her bristling to the idea that suddenly she has to serve this higher purpose.

I don't think that Dany will be visiting Valyria.

Not at all? Even if it's not part of her "to go forward, I must go back" mantra, I don't know that GRRM wouldn't visit the ruins even if only for a chapter. Given that Valryia comes up quite frequently in passing conversations, that Tyrion saw it in this most recent chapter, and that Dany was given a map of it pre-Doom, I think she'll at least visit.

[Kyoshi]

We moved! I'm re-posting just for ease since my chapter analysis is the last post on the previous thread.

A Dance With Dragons

Tyrion VIII

Great analysis, BearQueen87 :thumbsup: . Thank you!

Don't have much to add except that I think Moqorro is not a man to be trusted. Red God and all. With regard to the Euron interpretation, I tentatively agree. That audience that elected to have an Arianne chapter as a opposed to a Greyjoy one will never be forgiven to me.

[sNIP]

I love this post. Nothing comes easily, revolutions cost dearly. I also love Parwan's description of Dany as a revolutionary monarch.

I don't think that Dany will be visiting Valyria.

If you notice the words given to Dany by Quiathe are almost completely opposite to the motto Dany has been using for four books. She went from 'If I look back I am lost' to "To go forward, I must go back".

While the first denotes a linear journey, a journey will little retrospect the second denotes a more circular journal where retrospection is key in order to move forward.

As we have been discussing recently, Dany’s rule of Meereen was surprisingly devoid of many of the previous lessons and skills she had learned in the past. In many ways she lost herself and her way.

Her Vision Quest in the Dorthraki sea was mainly about her finding herself and her way, her purpose, this accumulated with Daarios words (I give him full credit for this) that she had forgotten who she was and what she had been fighting for was the epiphany that brought about the “to go forward, I must go back.” It’s not so much a physical journey (though it partly is) rather than a more personal journey.

I don’t want to get too much into it as we haven’t reached the chapter but that’s the way I read her words.

Just this morning I made a similar argument in another thread! :cheers: I completely agree with you here.

[...]Not at all? Even if it's not part of her "to go forward, I must go back" mantra, I don't know that GRRM wouldn't visit the ruins even if only for a chapter. Given that Valryia comes up quite frequently in passing conversations, that Tyrion saw it in this most recent chapter, and that Dany was given a map of it pre-Doom, I think she'll at least visit.

There are rumours in the forum grapevine that GRRM has said in so many words that no POV character will ever go to Valyria, ever.