Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-read Project Part V: ADWD

[SeanF]

I agree, I mean it is shown over and over again in History, that trained and disciplined soldiers win every time against a mad-attack. What the Dothraki are good for is raiding tiny villages in the dothraki sea. They would be absolutely terrible at fighting against a shield wall. They have shock value and could definitely be useful in a planned attack, but training and battle knowledge would beat them in almost every situation.

Westeros has no full-time professional soldiers, other than Gold Cloaks (more of a gendarmerie than an army) the Night's Watch, and the retinues of great lords.

But, what it does have is a huge reservoir of knights, archers, pikemen, men at arms, sellswords, who are semi-professional, very well-trained, and used to fighting in formation together.

The Dothraki (unless trained to fight as armoured cavalry) would be best used to raid and scout, and cause mayhem behind enemy lines.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Westeros has no full-time professional soldiers, other than Gold Cloaks (more of a gendarmerie than an army) the Night's Watch, and the retinues of great lords.

But, what it does have is a huge reservoir of knights, archers, pikemen, men at arms, sellswords, who are semi-professional, very well-trained, and used to fighting in formation together.

The Dothraki (unless trained to fight as armoured cavalry) would be best used to raid and scout, and cause mayhem behind enemy lines.

Yeah thats what I think too. I guess you are right about Westeros not even having a shield wall, but they would still have battle commanders and planned attacks, not just 'ATTACK!!!!".

I think they would be good to lead the van against an unhorsed army. The Dothraki would mow down foot soldiers. But against a trained and armored calvary, no way.

[BearQueen87]

The whole 'plot-gift' thing, if you ask me, is beyond ridiculous. Um it's a book... technically the entire novels are nothing but plot-gifts. This is another lame argument used by Dany haters to try and make her story seem pointless and stupid. Bran didnt die when he fell fromt he window, Arya was able to save Nymeria, Tyrion got away from Cat and Lysa. Cersei and Jaime never got caught except by Bran. Bran didnt get murdered in his sleep. Jon didnt desert due to his friends happening upon him. Sam was saved by the kindness of Jon. Ned was asked by Robert to come to KL and be the hand of the king, a huge appointment, think of how different the story would have been without that 'plot-gift'.

I swear the whole Dany -hate thing has brought down the entire IQ level of this forum by about 50 points. They will say any stupid thing to make her look bad, but the worst part is that those threads go on and on, and there is no way to even discuss anything relevant because they always focus on shit that is not even true or from the literature at all, just a bunch of made up problems. Every character that is still alive has had one 'gift' after another to survive 5 books. HOw about Stannis successfully killing his brother and destroying his army of 80K with one shadow baby? Or Cat being brought back to life to avenge her dead son? Or Ghost walking up on the north side of the Wall right when Jon walks out there to call him. Or how about Bran getting a giant magical Elk to carry him through the entire north unscathed to bring him to BR.

I may have fist pumped throughout this whole post. Well said.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

LOL, I think the dumbest thing said about Dany is that she will died in tWoW, and won't return to Westeros. With no real relevance to the plot.

To be fair, the same has been said about Jon dying and his story being done at the Wall.

Like, yeah.

Baaaack to topic, all of this speculation about Jorah and the Dothrakis (that sounds like a kickass band) is making me think that indeed, Bear is returning to Westeros. Barristan doesn't know the Dothrakis, only those who are now with Dany, a couple of bloodriders and the women and children. I don't see Barristan training Dothrakis to war like he does with the Unsullied because the U are pretty much empty shells. The Dothrakis, imo, are too barbaric for them to try to "knight". Jorah, otoh, has actually lived with them and know them.

Agreed. He has been a Lord of Westeros at one point. He does know how the game is played. His fault is not in his intelligence but in the fact that he wasn't born as nobly as a Lannister or a Stark. He can't tell Dany all the secrets of the Great Houses and how to use them against one another for Dany's advantage, so I've always maintained that he can't be Dany's Hand (that place will belong to Tyrion, so help me gods...). But Jorah is not stupid or inept either. Even Dany knows how much good counsel he gave her over their time together. She thinks about it quite a bit in ADWD. (off the top of my head, I'm sure there are others but these are the ones I know)

Dany knows that his counsel saved her and helped her many many many times. So no, Jorah shouldn't be her Hand in Westeros, but his abilities can't be sold short either.

Jorah Mormont has shown some ability to see things differently. I think that this is in part because of his experience as an exile.

Agree, but not completely with BearQueen. I think Jorah has the potential to be a good hand, if we consider the case of Davos. He's definitely working hard to be worthy of the title, despite people looking him down as "some smuggler". Jorah is more than a smuggler and he could be a surprise that poeple don't expect.

[BearQueen87]

LOL, I think the dumbest thing said about Dany is that she will died in tWoW, and won't return to Westeros. With no real relevance to the plot.

To be fair, the same has been said about Jon dying and his story being done at the Wall.

Like, yeah.

Baaaack to topic, all of this speculation about Jorah and the Dothrakis (that sounds like a kickass band) is making me think that indeed, Bear is returning to Westeros.

*screams at the top her her lungs* OF COURSE HE WILL. *rocks back and forth slowly*

Agree, but not completely with BearQueen. I think Jorah has the potential to be a good hand, if we consider the case of Davos. He's definitely working hard to be worthy of the title, despite people looking him down as "some smuggler". Jorah is more than a smuggler and he could be a surprise that poeple don't expect.

Jorah was basically Dany's Hand (even if he never held that official title in her mind--she only named him the first of her Queensguard) for quite while and did a perfectly fine job. He advised and counseled and protected his liege. He did all the things a Hand to an exile Queen would do. The biggest problem is the same one that Davos would face if ever Stannis took throne. The people of Westeros aren't going to respect him because of birth. Jorah was a Lord but a minor one; Davos was born in Flea Bottom. I do think Jorah could surprise a lot of people and be a good Hand to Dany, because he already has been. The issue, like Parwan pointed out, is that people in Westeros are stuck in "the way it has to be" sort of mentality. A smuggler or a formerly exiled minor Lord won't make the High Houses very happy.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The issue, like Parwan pointed out, is that people in Westeros are stuck in "the way it has to be" sort of mentality. A smuggler or a formerly exiled minor Lord won't make the High Houses very happy.

People in westeros is going to have to suck it, because looks like the three dragons are in for a change. Dany, trying to abolish slaves, bringing unsullied and dothrakis; Jon, allowing the wildings pass through the wall and Aegon, being all "fuck you, dad, I want my duck".

[BearQueen87]

People in westeros is going to have to suck it, because looks like the three dragons are in for a change. Dany, trying to abolish slaves, bringing unsullied and dothrakis; Jon, allowing the wildings pass through the wall and Aegon, being all "fuck you, dad, I want my duck".

LOL

One thing I've been wondering lately is how Westeros and Essos might come together once both places realize that Ice Zombies want to eat them all. We've seen Jon try to merge the Wildlings and Westeros; Dany will arrive with various groups of people from Essos. And like Parwan said, Jorah has been able to see that some of Essosi practices might be more beneficial than the Westerosi ones (like Jon who can see that the Wildlings are not straight up barbarians). And maybe what we're going to see in ADOS is all the forms of culture--Westoers, Dothraki, Free Cities, Wildlings--come together to bring the Dawn, lead by Dany and Jon. I know this sounds a little sunshine and rainbows for GRRM, but I can't imagine that once Dany leaves Essos it's going to be totally in the clear from the danger of the Others, and I can't believe it won't manage to contribute something other than bodies.

[Kyoshi]

Random thought but since the issue of a Hand for Dany has been mentioned I would just like to throw in Davos. He has naval knowledge; I acknowledge he was a smuggler and not military orientated but I don't think he's completely hopeless. And like Dany, I think he actually cares what happens to the small people of the realm/the city/whatever. Barry could be the war general along with the Bear the Bear the Bear. I also see great potential where Missandei is concerned...perhaps she has the makings of a maester or an adviser in another field. I think with these people Dany could be able to avoid a trail of catastrophe. Again, this was one of those random thoughts I had. I know there are big holes but it made sense at the time.

[Parwan]

Since we are talking about Dany's advisers, I'll ask a few questions.

Is anyone going to tell her about winter? It is setting in hard and fast.

Is anyone going to tell her about the Others?

Is anyone going to advise her on the subject of magic?

On the last question, I don't think that Quaithe qualifies as an adviser. Moqorro is problematic; we've discussed possible difficulties between Dany and the red priests. Tyrion knows things about dragons, but very little on the general subject of magic. As far as I know, he has never even heard of that weird horn. I think it is likely to be a focal point of the upcoming battle between Moqorro and the dusky woman. That will occur before Daenerys even gets back to Meereen and meets with any advisers.

[Kyoshi]

I've also wondered about the issue of Winter. It's like you always say, Parwan, the Starks go around screaming Winter is Coming; everyone else just goes "We don't really care, hey!" Dany would have to see something like a wight to take it seriously. I wouldn't fault her if someone showed up and told her the dead were rising in the North and she didn't believe him/her. The issue should be handled carefully; otherwise it's going to be like the time Thorne (?) showed up in KL with a rotting hand and no one took him seriously.

I think Marwyn will most likely advise her on magic because he might be one of the few maesters not opposed to the existence of dragons. In fact, his intentions may very well be steered by the desire to revive dragon populations. Just my thoughts.

I'm still very skeptical on Tyrion...but mainly because I'm very biased against him. My hatred for him clouds my judgement where he is concerned. If Dany were to align with any Lannister, I would prefer it be Jaime (the irony would make it all that better).

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Since we are talking about Dany's advisers, I'll ask a few questions.

Is anyone going to tell her about winter? It is setting in hard and fast.

Is anyone going to tell her about the Others?

Is anyone going to advise her on the subject of magic?

On the last question, I don't think that Quaithe qualifies as an adviser. Moqorro is problematic; we've discussed possible difficulties between Dany and the red priests. Tyrion knows things about dragons, but very little on the general subject of magic. As far as I know, he has never even heard of that weird horn. I think it is likely to be a focal point of the upcoming battle between Moqorro and the dusky woman. That will occur before Daenerys even gets back to Meereen and meets with any advisers.

I've also wondered about the issue of Winter. It's like you always say, Parwan, the Starks go around screaming Winter is Coming; everyone else just goes "We don't really care, hey!" Dany would have to see something like a wight to take it seriously. I wouldn't fault her if someone showed up and told her the dead were rising in the North and she didn't believe him/her. The issue should be handled carefully; otherwise it's going to be like the time Thorne (?) showed up in KL with a rotting hand and no one took him seriously.

I think Marwyn will most likely advise her on magic because he might be one of the few maesters not opposed to the existence of dragons. In fact, his intentions may very well be steered by the desire to revive dragon populations. Just my thoughts.

I'm still very skeptical on Tyrion...but mainly because I'm very biased against him. My hatred for him clouds my judgement where he is concerned. If Dany were to align with any Lannister, I would prefer it be Jaime (the irony would make it all that better).

Yea I agree with Kyoshi, Marywn might be her adviser in terms of magic. The link with MMD is telling, and MMD was Dany's first "teacher" in magic.

It also makes sense since he's coming in Aemon's place.

I also suspect he will tell her about winter, I don't think any of the people coming to Dany believe in "grumpkins and snarks".

[BearQueen87]

Since we are talking about Dany's advisers, I'll ask a few questions.

Is anyone going to tell her about winter? It is setting in hard and fast.

Is anyone going to tell her about the Others?

Is anyone going to advise her on the subject of magic?

On the last question, I don't think that Quaithe qualifies as an adviser. Moqorro is problematic; we've discussed possible difficulties between Dany and the red priests. Tyrion knows things about dragons, but very little on the general subject of magic. As far as I know, he has never even heard of that weird horn. I think it is likely to be a focal point of the upcoming battle between Moqorro and the dusky woman. That will occur before Daenerys even gets back to Meereen and meets with any advisers.

1) I assume she has to get to Westeros first, though since the Dothraki Sea is currently drying up someone is going to speculate about the seasons. Tyrion and Jorah could both tell her about that. Jorah is more knowledgeable about winter. And of course, Marwyn is on his way.

2) Marwyn again

3) lol..Marwyn!

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I may have fist pumped throughout this whole post. Well said.

Thanks! Glad to know others feel the same :)

LOL, I think the dumbest thing said about Dany is that she will died in tWoW, and won't return to Westeros. With no real relevance to the plot.

To be fair, the same has been said about Jon dying and his story being done at the Wall.

Like, yeah.

Baaaack to topic, all of this speculation about Jorah and the Dothrakis (that sounds like a kickass band) is making me think that indeed, Bear is returning to Westeros. Barristan doesn't know the Dothrakis, only those who are now with Dany, a couple of bloodriders and the women and children. I don't see Barristan training Dothrakis to war like he does with the Unsullied because the U are pretty much empty shells. The Dothrakis, imo, are too barbaric for them to try to "knight". Jorah, otoh, has actually lived with them and know them.

Thats some good foreshadow detective work :)

Jorah has a ton of knowledge about Essos that no other characters has. He has been full of helpful information the entire time he has been with Dany, beginning at her wedding. I am also starting to think he will make it back to Westeros.

Since we are talking about Dany's advisers, I'll ask a few questions.

Is anyone going to tell her about winter? It is setting in hard and fast.

Is anyone going to tell her about the Others?

Is anyone going to advise her on the subject of magic?

On the last question, I don't think that Quaithe qualifies as an adviser. Moqorro is problematic; we've discussed possible difficulties between Dany and the red priests. Tyrion knows things about dragons, but very little on the general subject of magic. As far as I know, he has never even heard of that weird horn. I think it is likely to be a focal point of the upcoming battle between Moqorro and the dusky woman. That will occur before Daenerys even gets back to Meereen and meets with any advisers.

VERY GOOD QUESTIONS!!

And my only answer is that there will have to be 8 books lol. I mean Jeez! How can all the above be accomplished in 2 more books? The only way will be for Dany to change locations in every single chapter from here on out, and an assload of information being poured into her ear with every single bit of dialogue left. Unless DOS is 3000 pages long or it has the most rushed ending ever I just dont see it happening in 2 books..

But I completely agree that Marwyn will be schooling Dany at some point. I dont think TYrion will be a magic teacher, he will be more a political advisor for the Westeros ruling class (which Dany desperately needs to learn about).

[BearQueen87]

But I completely agree that Marwyn will be schooling Dany at some point. I dont think TYrion will be a magic teacher, he will be more a political advisor for the Westeros ruling class (which Dany desperately needs to learn about).

Agreed. So by the time Dany gets back to Westeros, she'll have a politically savvy Hand, a magically inclined Maester, and (I think) a Lord Commander of her Queensguard. Half a small council at least. And should Victarion live (I know, unlikely) he could be the new Admiral of her Fleet.

[SeanF]

Agreed. So by the time Dany gets back to Westeros, she'll have a politically savvy Hand, a magically inclined Maester, and (I think) a Lord Commander of her Queensguard. Half a small council at least. And should Victarion live (I know, unlikely) he could be the new Admiral of her Fleet.

I have a feeling that between them, Marwyn, Victarion, Tyrion, and Moqorro would be like the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, each one urging Dany to be cruel and ruthless.

[Parwan]

I believe that Marwyn will be a good adviser. To me, the guy is the closest thing to a scientist in the story. He also has a no-nonsense attitude and a willingness to work with people of various social classes. He won't come up with stuff like "To go up you must fall down. To get fat you must avoid food." Whether he can figure out what Quaithe is talking about is uncertain. His tendency to consort with the lower classes has made him unpopular with his colleagues. I believe that Dany will like it though. I'm not certain whether he is a good guy or not. Some people are suspicious of him because they see a connection with Qyburn. This is a vague thing however. Qyburn mentions Marwyn with regard to one specific idea that the Grandmaester liked. I don't believe that Marwyn ever mentions Qyburn.

[Maia]

Or I could give it to you (Dany II, ASOS)

Thanks! I guess I am so used to to combatting the notion that Jorah was the reason for _all_ of Dany's successes, that he was the author of all her plans, particularly battle plans, and that she was failing in Meeren because she didn't have his wise council that I have forgotten this.

In case I am mistaken about the dress, Ill give you another example: Dany only learns half of the wedding traditions in Qarth when she's contemplating marrying Xaro for ships. It's Jorah who figures out that she'd have to give him a dragon.

IIRC, Dany was suspicious of Xaro's motives and knew that there was a rat hidden somewhere in his offer, but yea, Jorah ferreted it out. But the thing that makes me less appreciative of the advice he gave her in Quarth is that he was clearly still hoping to convince Dany not to try to claim her destiny and just settle down with him. Jealousy and unwillingness to let other men near Dany very much colored his behavior, IMHO, and yes, it made him more sharp-eyed and critical towards them and people being people, he was often proven right. But it was advice that was very much tainted by Jorah's own desires, nevertheless. IIRC, he was also suspicious of Barristan and Strong Belwas, who proved to be loyal, and tried to prevent Dany from taking them into her confidence.

Anyway, I don't think that Jorah's birth would be in any way a negative in a Hand - there have been Hands who were commoners and bastards, after all! Leave alone lots of lesser lords. But, IMHO, while Jorah did learn a lot of different useful things from his exile, he just doesn't have the necessary qualities to be a good Hand.

He is not good at eliciting cooperation from people (as highlighted by seeing his journey with Tyrion), or at making complex plans that work. "What the king dreams, the Hand builds" and I don't see Jorah capable of doing so, not at the scale required.

Davos, OTOH, is easily as world-wise as Jorah, if not more, but is also diplomatic, very resourceful and certainly quite capable of forming and suggesting grand, audacious plans. He is a genuinely good Hand. Too bad that he is stuck with Stannis ;).

[BearQueen87]

Thanks! I guess I am so used to to combatting the notion that Jorah was the reason for _all_ of Dany's successes, that he was the author of all her plans, particularly battle plans, and that she was failing in Meeren because she didn't have his wise council that I have forgotten this.

I definitely don't think that Jorah is responsible for all of Dany's success. They work well as a team, more often than not. Dany has had many ideas that were solely her own: like Astapor. I don't think she's failing in Meereen just because Jorah was sent from her. There are a lot of factors there; do I think she might have better counsel with Jorah around? Yes. But his absence from Meereen isn't the reason for the war or for the Harpy or the Sons or the pale mare.

IRC, Dany was suspicious of Xaro's motives and knew that there was a rat hidden somewhere in his offer, but yea, Jorah ferreted it out. But the thing that makes me less appreciative of the advice he gave her in Quarth is that he was clearly still hoping to convince Dany not to try to claim her destiny and just settle down with him. Jealousy and unwillingness to let other men near Dany very much colored his behavior, IMHO, and yes, it made him more sharp-eyed and critical towards them and people being people, he was often proven right. But it was advice that was very much tainted by Jorah's own desires, nevertheless. IIRC, he was also suspicious of Barristan and Strong Belwas, who proved to be loyal, and tried to prevent Dany from taking them into her confidence.

Yes, Dany was suspicious of Xaro but Jorah solved the riddle. Again, they work as a team.

And it was always tainted by Jorah's desires, sure. He didn't go out into Qarth and learn about the secrets of Qartheen marriage customs solely because he needed to advise his liege. No, the bear is fairly selfish in these regards. But he was also spurred by worry for Dany, and not jealousy type of worry either. It's not one or the other with Jorah, it's a combination of both.

And yes, he is often proved right so while his motivation behind it is never 100% pure knightly concern for his Queen, it doesn't change the fact that Jorah is often right. The trick with these two is Dany's realizing that while Jorah's motivations may not be as noble as a knights should be, that doesn't mean they're not right and she shouldn't at least heed them; and Jorah realizing that Dany isn't going to fall into his arms simply because he's right about the dangers of the world and that she does need other people around her.

Anyway, I don't think that Jorah's birth would be in any way a negative in a Hand - there have been Hands who were commoners and bastards, after all! Leave alone lots of lesser lords. But, IMHO, while Jorah did learn a lot of different useful things from his exile, he just doesn't have the necessary qualities to be a good Hand.

He is not good at eliciting cooperation from people (as highlighted by seeing his journey with Tyrion), or at making complex plans that work. "What the king dreams, the Hand builds" and I don't see Jorah capable of doing so, not at the scale required.

Davos, OTOH, is easily as world-wise as Jorah, if not more, but is also diplomatic, very resourceful and certainly quite capable of forming and suggesting grand, audacious plans. He is a genuinely good Hand. Too bad that he is stuck with Stannis

I don't disagree. I think Jorah has served well as her Hand (in all but name) because of their circumstances--ie: exile and not part of a Westerosi court. Jorah might prove a decent Hand if they made it back to Westeros, but only if he learned to lighten up a wee bit. That's why, in the end, I see him more as a very trusted adviser and friend (whispers: maybe something more) and the LC of her Queensguard. But, no, I've always wanted Tyrion to be Dany's hand once they meet.

[MoIaF]

Hi all,

Just got back from vacay and will post my analysis of Quentyn tomorrow. I thought I could do it on time but I was having too much fun. :)

ETA: Just wanted to thank all of your for your amazing analysis. I'm going to try and catch up this weekend before my analysis of Dany IX.

[BearQueen87]

Hi all,

Just got back from vacay and will post my analysis of Quentyn tomorrow. I thought I could do it on time but I was having too much fun. :)

Welcome back! Look forward to your newest chapter :)