Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-read Project Part V: ADWD

[Nictarion]

Oh, honey...

this whole chapter can be summarised in one single gif.

:rofl:

[Kyoshi]

The Dragontamer: Quentyn IV

Very nice analysis, Queen Alysanne! Thanks! :cheers:

In addition to the things you mentioned that went wrong, I think the choice of the dragons might be one more thing to consider. I think that as much as the rider chooses the dragon, the dragon has to choose the rider, and they each have to accept the other. This is based on the analyses this team has posted regarding a few of the previous chapters. I think you have all done a stellar job in highlighting just how close Drogon is to Dany. And I think it's important to note that the other two dragons seem to have "accepted" that Drogon is Dany's and Dany belongs to her.

Another thing that stood out to me is that the dragons seemed to respond more positively to a female character. Which got me wondering: is that a hint that the other two dragon riders will be female as well? Then I dismissed the thought...but it's still there at the back of my mind (with Arya and Sansa flanking Dany, Arya on Rhaegal and Sansa on Viserion. Seeing as how they both "lost" their wolves).

Like Suzanna Stormborn, I struggle to understand why Quentyn thought he had to ride a dragon. Baby steps, Frog, baby steps do the trick. I was shaking my head throughout this entire chapter. I still am.

[BearQueen87]

I think you have all done a stellar job in highlighting just how close Drogon is to Dany. And I think it's important to note that the other two dragons seem to have "accepted" that Drogon is Dany's and Dany belongs to her.

At this point, I think Drogon going to another character is an unlikely as Ghost suddenly deciding that Sansa is his human, or if Summer suddenly took up with Coldhands and ignored Bran.

Another thing that stood out to me is that the dragons seemed to respond more positively to a female character. Which got me wondering: is that a hint that the other two dragon riders will be female as well? Then I dismissed the thought...but it's still there at the back of my mind (with Arya and Sansa flanking Dany, Arya on Rhaegal and Sansa on Viserion. Seeing as how they both "lost" their wolves).

I think the two dragons were missing their mother, like Qunetyn thinks, and hoping that Meris was Dany. Though, if Arya were to ride a dragon, I shall not object.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Thanks for the kind replies !

Oh, honey...

this whole chapter can be summarised in one single gif.

Nevertheless, yes, Quentyn is quite a tragic character here, and it's sad that it will turn out wrong for Dany, even though Dany never wished him wrong. I'm very against the Quentyn hate: neither him nor his arc is boring, tbh.

I agree I don't find Quentyn's arc useless nor boring and I also don't find him stupid. I think he put his position as Prince of Dorne over rationality, and felt too dutiful to bring fire and blood for Dorne. And his character is meant to show us the tragedy of what sometimes duty can bring you

Another thing that stood out to me is that the dragons seemed to respond more positively to a female character. Which got me wondering: is that a hint that the other two dragon riders will be female as well? Then I dismissed the thought...but it's still there at the back of my mind (with Arya and Sansa flanking Dany, Arya on Rhaegal and Sansa on Viserion. Seeing as how they both "lost" their wolves).

Interesting way to look at it, in terms of females. I've been quite tied to the possibility of Shireen bonding with one of the dragons due to her dragon dreams and also Targaryen lineage, the female factor might play a big role than many expect in terms of the future of who will ride the dragons.

[MoIaF]

The "in a way" part of the intersection of Tyrion and Dany is interesting. I agree that it means they'll meet but only briefly. Something almost has to call Dany back to Meereen. Her Dothraki that are looking for her might persuade her to come back, but I've been wondering if someone else might go looking for Dany to inform her of what's going on in Meereen (the battle for one thing). And when they find her they not only tell Dany of the battle for Meereen, but also that Tyrion Lannister is holding her city for her.

Also, yay new chapter! More on that later today :)

I do wonder what exactly that means, but it probably means their paths will cross before they are separate until the end of the book. GRRM does say they'll be separated for most of the book so they will be together eventually and most likely in Volantis which should happen towards the end of the book before they head (finally!) to Westeros.

Interesting way to look at it, in terms of females. I've been quite tied to the possibility of Shireen bonding with one of the dragons due to her dragon dreams and also Targaryen lineage, the female factor might play a big role than many expect in terms of the future of who will ride the dragons.

I like Shireen and it would be lovely if she bonded with a dragon and that helped heal her completely. But I fear our poor girl is destined for death. If not by Mel's hand then by the Wildings.

[Parwan]

...

Nevertheless, yes, Quentyn is quite a tragic character here, and it's sad that it will turn out wrong for Dany, even though Dany never wished him wrong. I'm very against the Quentyn hate: neither him nor his arc is boring, tbh.

He's one of the reasons the books is called "Dance with Dragons", which is a big motif in this book, and not only because of the beasts, also the people.

Tyrion tried to dance with a Dragon, and he got himself strangled and slaved when such Dragon decided to do his will. And Aegon is becoming more independent every day.

...

...

*sigh* Poor Quentyn.

Note that the chapter opens with the telling of the hours, much like Quentyn's last chapter: "The hour of the bat gave way to the hour of the eel, the hour of the eel to the hour of ghosts."

The hour of ghosts is now upon them and soon there will be a few more ghosts.

...

I don't think Quentyn is boring, nor is his arc boring. There are a good many things going on here. It is not inaccurate to see the young prince as sad or tragic, but that is not the only way to look at matters. Remember Gerris's phrase, "it is not what you would call honorable..." The Dornishmen got involved in some very bad stuff. They signed up with a viscous bunch of sellswords and wound up fighting on the wrong side in a vicious war. Whatever their motives, that's what they did.

Excellent Analysis :) A very good chapter here. Really love it. Again, shout out to poor doomed Quentyn...he did try, gods know he had good intentions. And even though he wasn't internally brave enough to get it right once he got in the cave, he was brave enough to make the plan and get down there, which is more than anyone else has done. He was trying as hard as he could to win Dany, to become a legend, to make Dorne proud, he just fell short in all categories.

...

...

I agree I don't find Quentyn's arc useless nor boring and I also don't find him stupid. I think he put his position as Prince of Dorne over rationality, and felt too dutiful to bring fire and blood for Dorne. And his character is meant to show us the tragedy of what sometimes duty can bring you

...

Good intentions are important, but they are not enough. Honor and duty, how do we define these things? My definition would very possibly be different from yours. One thing I'd say for sure: The definitions commonly used in the Seven Kingdoms are severely deficient. I'll have more to say about this during the discussions of the Barristan chapters. Here I'll bring up an issue I keep repeating in these forums. The vows commonly taken by knights, lords (especially lower ones), members of the NW, etc. are essentially promises of slavish devotion. Calling these vows "contracts" is far too generous.

In Quentyn's case, he was very devoted to his father and his house. Unfortunately, his father and his house (and Dorne generally I'd say) is devoted to revenge. How much honor is there in revenge? Whatever your nobility or your intentions, a strong focus on revenge can bring you to do bad stuff. In the discussions of Slaver's Bay, some readers argue that everything which went wrong was Dany's fault. I say that this is a severe overstatement. More important here, I don't remember anyone, Dany fan, Dany critic, Dany neutral, whatever, indicating that the Dornishmen have any guilt in the matter. (Granted, I haven't read everything written on this issue.) The Frog and company are called boring; they are called sad; they are called tragic. They are not called men who were part of the horror that descended upon Astapor. It's clear, however, that they were deeply involved in something that was "not what you would call honorable."

(Edited for spelling and grammar)

[Kyoshi]

Thanks for the kind replies !

I agree I don't find Quentyn's arc useless nor boring and I also don't find him stupid. I think he put his position as Prince of Dorne over rationality, and felt too dutiful to bring fire and blood for Dorne. And his character is meant to show us the tragedy of what sometimes duty can bring you

Interesting way to look at it, in terms of females. I've been quite tied to the possibility of Shireen bonding with one of the dragons due to her dragon dreams and also Targaryen lineage, the female factor might play a big role than many expect in terms of the future of who will ride the dragons.

Shireen would be awesome. She's one of those characters I'm convinced have a bigger role to play but for the life of me I can't even begin to crackpot a single thing.

I'm starting to think maybe I should look at Quentyn again. I found him insufferably boring. Though I think he is very important. And terribly tragic.

[BearQueen87]

Shireen would be awesome. She's one of those characters I'm convinced have a bigger role to play but for the life of me I can't even begin to crackpot a single thing.

I'm starting to think maybe I should look at Quentyn again. I found him insufferably boring. Though I think he is very important. And terribly tragic.

I think Shireen's blood will be important but I greatly fear for the life of that poor girl.

About Quentyn: I think his overall story is about the futility of adventures. The stories you read are just that...stories. Trying to live the adventure is far more bloody and violent and sometimes you get burned by a dragon.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Shireen would be awesome. She's one of those characters I'm convinced have a bigger role to play but for the life of me I can't even begin to crackpot a single thing.

I think Shireen's blood will be important but I greatly fear for the life of that poor girl.

OT, but I think the clues are kinda in the show, if they indeed know something we don't.

In the episode where we see Mel, Selyse and Stannis having supper, we can see how Stannis pretty much hates everything, what he did (the burning) and what he's doing (being surrounded by M and S), but that doesn't include Shireen at all. In fact, when Selyse tells her she should be beaten, not only he opposes completely to it, but it's funny the reasons Selyse gives: she's stubborn, sinful and sullen. Who she's actually describing there? Yeah, Stannis.

So far, I think there is one thing that we could call Stannis' soft spot and that's Shireen. And rather than burn her (which I doubt Mel would do, tbh. She knows Stannis cares for her), it will be Selyse the one who might try something out of spite or fear. At least in the episode, it's pretty obvious that Selyse resents that Stannis doesn't love her. Stannis, otoh, loves Shireen.

[A Bastard Snow]

By the way iirc.....Rhaegal?Seemed to be less/not hostile to Quentyn.Rhaegal did not attack him and let him get close but then Viserion torched his ass.

I dont think you should try to bond with a dragon unless its alone.Cause even if you are able to bond with one dragon the other one wont accept you and will kill you.

(Also I think that the dragon has every right to be pissed considering Dany named him after like of the biggest scumbags and overall most moronic person ever.Good job naming the poor dragon after your terrible brother.)

[BearQueen87]

(Also I think that the dragon has every right to be pissed considering Dany named him after like of the biggest scumbags and overall most moronic person ever.Good job naming the poor dragon after your terrible brother.)

Even though the dragons know their name, not sure they know the history behind each name.

ETA: Rhaegal is the one who burnt Quentyn after Quentyn hit Viserion with a whip.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

By the way iirc.....Rhaegal?Seemed to be less/not hostile to Quentyn.Rhaegal did not attack him and let him get close but then Viserion torched his ass.

What?

Quentyn turned and threw his left arm across his face to shield his eyes from the furnace wind. Rhaegal, he reminded himself, the green one is Rhaegal.

When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, all of him was burning.

Oh, he thought. Then he began to scream.

Rhaegal burned Quentyn.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I don't think Quentyn is boring, nor is his arc boring. There are a good many things going on here. It is not inaccurate to see the young prince as sad or tragic, but that is not the only way to look at matters. Remember Gerris's phrase, "it is not what you would call honorable..." The Dornishmen got involved in some very bad stuff. They signed up with a viscous bunch of sellswords and wound up fighting on the wrong side in a vicious war. Whatever their motives, that's what they did.

Good intentions are important, but they are not enough. Honor and duty, how do we define these things? My definition would very possibly be different from yours. One thing I'd say for sure: The definitions commonly used in the Seven Kingdoms are severely deficient. I'll have more to say about this during the discussions of the Barristan chapters. Here I'll bring up an issue I keep repeating in these forums. The vows commonly taken by knights, lords (especially lower ones), members of the NW, etc. are essentially promises of slavish devotion. Calling these vows "contracts" is far too generous.

In Quentyn's case, he was very devoted to his father and his house. Unfortunately, his father and his house (and Dorne generally I'd say) is devoted to revenge. How much honor is there in revenge? Whatever your nobility or your intentions, a strong focus on revenge can bring you to do bad stuff. In the discussions of Slaver's Bay, some readers argue that everything which went wrong was Dany's fault. I say that this is a severe overstatement. More important here, I don't remember anyone, Dany fan, Dany critic, Dany neutral, whatever, indicating that the Dornishmen have any guilt in the matter. (Granted, I haven't read everything written on this issue.) The Frog and company are called boring; they are called sad; they are called tragic. They are not called men who were part of the horror that descended upon Astapor. It's clear, however, that they were deeply involved in something that was "not what you would call honorable."

(Edited for spelling and grammar)

Yea I definitely agree on the vows being "slavish", I think the decisions characters like Jon and Jaime have had to make also show how outdated the system of vows are.

Astapor's horrors were caused by a chain of events that started by the government Dany set up when leaving Astapor, I think it's fair that she carries most of the blame. And it's meant to be that way as part of her learning process hence her staying in Meereen.

I like Shireen and it would be lovely if she bonded with a dragon and that helped heal her completely. But I fear our poor girl is destined for death. If not by Mel's hand then by the Wildings.

Yea I think there is a higher possibility that she could get killed, keeping my fingers crossed for hope that she doesn't!

[A Bastard Snow]

Even though the dragons know their name, not sure they know the history behind each name.

ETA: Rhaegal is the one who burnt Quentyn after Quentyn hit Viserion with a whip.

Ah my bad thanks.

[Parwan]

...

Like Suzanna Stormborn, I struggle to understand why Quentyn thought he had to ride a dragon. Baby steps, Frog, baby steps do the trick. I was shaking my head throughout this entire chapter. I still am.

He had promised Pentos to the Tattered Prince. I think the use of a dragon would have been required. Tatters would not have been satisfied with thousands of Dornish spears, especially since "Dornish sea power" would have been needed to get the spears to the target city.

Yea I definitely agree on the vows being "slavish", I think the decisions characters like Jon and Jaime have had to make also show how outdated the system of vows are.

Astapor's horrors were caused by a chain of events that started by the government Dany set up when leaving Astapor, I think it's fair that she carries most of the blame. And it's meant to be that way as part of her learning process hence her staying in Meereen.

...

I'll return to two points I've made earlier:

1. When we consider the horror that descended upon Astapor, the culpability of the three Dornishmen is greater than that of Daenerys Targaryen. Her power was larger, but their involvement was much more thorough. There's no doubt which side they fought on. It wasn't the right side. Also, they walked into the situation with their eyes open. All of them knew the sort of men Tatters and his followers were. All of them knew the character of the Volantenes and the Yunkai'i. Even at the last minute, Frog and co. could have refused to participate in the slaughter. True, it would have been very hard for them to escape. That does not absolve them of the responsibility of trying to get out of a terrible situation that they were guilty of putting themselves into.

This also relates to the questions of honor and duty. Quentyn and his friends considered themselves honor-bound to fight alongside the slavers and the sellswords. Clearly, there's something wrong with honor in this case.

2. There are some interesting comparisons to make between Daenerys and Eddard. I maintain that a better case could be made for blaming Lord Stark for most of the destruction and death of the War of the Five Kings than for blaming Queen Daenerys for most of the destruction and death in Astapor. Note that "better" does not mean "good." In my opinion, a good case cannot be made in either case. Neither character can escape some blame. Neither one should get most of the blame.

[SeanF]

He had promised Pentos to the Tattered Prince. I think the use of a dragon would have been required. Tatters would not have been satisfied with thousands of Dornish spears, especially since "Dornish sea power" would have been needed to get the spears to the target city.

I'll return to two points I've made earlier:

1. When we consider the horror that descended upon Astapor, the culpability of the three Dornishmen is greater than that of Daenerys Targaryen. Her power was larger, but their involvement was much more thorough. There's no doubt which side they fought on. It wasn't the right side. Also, they walked into the situation with their eyes open. All of them knew the sort of men Tatters and his followers were. All of them knew the character of the Volantenes and the Yunkai'i. Even at the last minute, Frog and co. could have refused to participate in the slaughter. True, it would have been very hard for them to escape. That does not absolve them of the responsibility of trying to get out of a terrible situation that they were guilty of putting themselves into.

This also relates to the questions of honor and duty. Quentyn and his friends considered themselves honor-bound to fight alongside the slavers and the sellswords. Clearly, there's something wrong with honor in this case.

2. There are some interesting comparisons to make between Daenerys and Eddard. I maintain that a better case could be made for blaming Lord Stark for most of

the destruction and death of the War of the Five Kings than for blaming Queen Daenerys for most of the destruction and death in Astapor. Note that "better" does not mean "good." In my opinion, a good case cannot be made in either case. Neither character can escape some blame. Neither one should get most of the blame.

Was there a right side? Cleon's (and his successors') government was as vile and brutal as the Good Masters', and launched a disastrous war of aggression.

Though he fought with the Windblown, I don't have the impression that Quentyn personally carried out atrocities.

[BearQueen87]

Yea I definitely agree on the vows being "slavish", I think the decisions characters like Jon and Jaime have had to make also show how outdated the system of vows are.

I don't know that I agree that the vows--any of them--are slavish, but I think you're right that it's reality of the world in which the people who swore those vows live that is the main problem. The vow, in it's most basic form, is based on the idea of reciprocity. It doesn't really matter which vow, at the heart is that both parties are getting something they desire.

Take the knightly vow for example. A knight swears his sword to a king. The King gets protection and loyalty, the Knight gets adventures and honor because at the purest level, the idea is that the king is worthy of being served. The Knight does not feel a slave to the King because this is a King that deserves to be protected. What GRRM does is take that and make the king or the knight much more realistic.

Take Jorah and the two vows he's sworn since aGoT. The first, which happens off screen, is to Viserys. Jorah doesn't have any positive thoughts about Viserys; he recognizes that Viserys is less than a snake, not a good king, and not even a good man. Yet he swears his sword to him because at least Viserys might take him home. But the sort of loyalty you expect from a knight to his liege you simply do not find with Jorah and Viserys. Had Jorah felt the kind of pure knight/king relationship that is supposed to go with those vows, he would have gotten Viserys the hell out of Vaes Dothrak when it became apparent that Drogo was going to kill Viserys, or died in the attempt.

Now, the other vow: to Dany. In the final aGoT POV, Jorah makes vows twice to Dany. You can argue that it's actually three, the third is just silent once he finds her in the pyre (in other words, every time he falls to his knees before her). The first time he makes the vows, it's unprompted and not only does he sincerely swear his sword, he gives his heart. The second time, even though he's already sworn, Dany asks for it again and this time we see that idea of reciprocity. Jorah will fight for Dany, defend her, die for her if need be, and in return Dany will be a good Queen that he's proud to follow, make Jorah the first of her Queensguard, and someday give him a Valryian sword (and underlying this is the promise of Bear Island, of course). This is the vow played out as it was intended in it's purest form. Jorah will never regret the giving of the vow--in fact he basically re-utters it to the Whore in Volantis--and Dany will try her best to be a strong and able Queen for her knight (Dany's inner thoughts in Clash, Dany I).

There are some vows that are pretty antiquated, like the one the NW's must swear. They seem to harken back to a time when the NW had not yet forgotten the real danger that lay beyond the Wall. When the realm was actually under attack from more than just the occasional Wildling raid. When the danger changed, with the Wights and the White Walkers "gone," the vows stayed the same and comes across as highly constrictive. Though, now that the Others have returned we should probably be glad of the vows.

So my basic point here is that the vows aren't slavish it's that the pure ideal behind them--reciprocity--isn't upheld in world because reality gets in the way.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I don't know that I agree that the vows--any of them--are slavish, but I think you're right that it's reality of the world in which the people who swore those vows live that is the main problem. The vow, in it's most basic form, is based on the idea of reciprocity. It doesn't really matter which vow, at the heart is that both parties are getting something they desire.

Take the knightly vow for example. A knight swears his sword to a king. The King gets protection and loyalty, the Knight gets adventures and honor because at the purest level, the idea is that the king is worthy of being served. The Knight does not feel a slave to the King because this is a King that deserves to be protected. What GRRM does is take that and make the king or the knight much more realistic.

Take Jorah and the two vows he's sworn since aGoT. The first, which happens off screen, is to Viserys. Jorah doesn't have any positive thoughts about Viserys; he recognizes that Viserys is less than a snake, not a good king, and not even a good man. Yet he swears his sword to him because at least Viserys might take him home. But the sort of loyalty you expect from a knight to his liege you simply do not find with Jorah and Viserys. Had Jorah felt the kind of pure knight/king relationship that is supposed to go with those vows, he would have gotten Viserys the hell out of Vaes Dothrak when it became apparent that Drogo was going to kill Viserys, or died in the attempt.

Now, the other vow: to Dany. In the final aGoT POV, Jorah makes vows twice to Dany. You can argue that it's actually three, the third is just silent once he finds her in the pyre (in other words, every time he falls to his knees before her). The first time he makes the vows, it's unprompted and not only does he sincerely swear his sword, he gives his heart. The second time, even though he's already sworn, Dany asks for it again and this time we see that idea of reciprocity. Jorah will fight for Dany, defend her, die for her if need be, and in return Dany will be a good Queen that he's proud to follow, make Jorah the first of her Queensguard, and someday give him a Valryian sword (and underlying this is the promise of Bear Island, of course). This is the vow played out as it was intended in it's purest form. Jorah will never regret the giving of the vow--in fact he basically re-utters it to the Whore in Volantis--and Dany will try her best to be a strong and able Queen for her knight (Dany's inner thoughts in Clash, Dany I).

There are some vows that are pretty antiquated, like the one the NW's must swear. They seem to harken back to a time when the NW had not yet forgotten the real danger that lay beyond the Wall. When the realm was actually under attack from more than just the occasional Wildling raid. When the danger changed, with the Wights and the White Walkers "gone," the vows stayed the same and comes across as highly constrictive. Though, now that the Others have returned we should probably be glad of the vows.

So my basic point here is that the vows aren't slavish it's that the pure ideal behind them--reciprocity--isn't upheld in world because reality gets in the way.

The problem though, is that the vows witihin the story are vague and once you go against them you are painted as a villain in society. Jorah for instance swears to protect Dany but it is never indicated that Dany in return must be a good Queen. Dany is the one who believes it is her duty to be a good Queen for her people. We don't know what Jorah will do if Dany ends up becoming a bad Queen. Will he still protect her? Will he kill her? Or will he walk away? Barristan is also a good person to question here.

The situation ends up becoming "Slavish" when characters are forced in these moments and have to do things they are not in support of, such as protecting a King that rapes wife. This is slavish in the sense that they only have two choices, protect the person that is clearly not meant to be in that position or go against society norms and end up being black painted for life.

The system of vows might be looked at in a good light when you have reasonable people such as Jorah and Dany, but the problem is that Jorah and Dany won't exist forever or there won't always be a good Queen and a good knight, so it brings the system into big questions when thinking of the future.

[Parwan]

1. Was there a right side? Cleon's (and his successors') government was as vile and brutal as the Good Masters', and launched a disastrous war of aggression.

2. Though he fought with the Windblown, I don't have the impression that Quentyn personally carried out atrocities.

1. Yes, in the uninspiring but still important sense that there can be a bad side and an even worse side. The Cleon aggression had been defeated. The chance that he and his forces represented any threat to the rest of the world had been reduced to zero. Indeed, the guy was a corpse. Also, a considerable percentage of the defenders should be considered mostly innocent. That cannot be said of the attackers.

2. With regard to the underlined part, the same can be said of Dany (at least in Astapor). For that matter, the same can be said of Xaro Xhoan Daxos.

At a minimum, I would say this: The Daenerys vs. Quentyn argument has a great many aspects, not just in regard to actions in and around Astapor. Both of them are too focused on revenge. (Once again a leitmotif of mine--Dany fits in.) Quentyn doesn't crucify anyone, but he is never in the position to order crucifixions. Both characters know what sellswords are. Both of them are aware that the Tattered Prince is pretty bad, even as sellswords go. Dany is unwilling to promise the man Pentos. Quentyn makes this promise, and, I maintain, offers the use of a dragon in achieving the goal.

Regarding vows and reciprocity: This is an important issue. I'll have more to say later today when I post my analysis of the first Barristan POV. Now, a quick look at what happened with Jorah and Dany just before the pyre event is worthwhile:

"I vow to serve you, to obey you, to die for you if need be."

"Whatever may come?"

"Whatever may come."

The knight's promise of obedience is absolute. The ruler promises nothing in terms of honor, just rule, or anything of the sort. The knight gets the promise of a material reward, in this case, a promise of a sword of Valyrian steel. To me, it seems clear that this is the situation in the Seven Kingdoms. The overwhelming rule is that the big man (or woman) is not actually bound to any promise of honorable, or even decent, behavior. It may not always have been this way, but this is the current situation.

(Edited for spelling and grammar)

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

The knight's promise of obedience is absolute. The ruler promises nothing in terms of honor, just rule, or anything of the sort. The knight gets the promise of a material reward, in this case, a promise of a sword of Valyrian steel. To me, it seems clear that this is the situation in the Seven Kingdoms. The overwhelming rule is that the big man (or woman) is not actually bound to any promise of honorable, or even decent, behavior. It may not always have been this way, but this is the current situation.

(Edited for spelling and grammar)

I agree, this also the problem I have with the system of vows.