Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-read Project Part V: ADWD

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Good point. Also, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but apart from the wedding and then the pit scene, does Dany ever leave the pyramid? It is as if she is literally stuck in one place and can't get out--which works for her Dance arc over all. It's also a drastic change from her first three books in which she was constantly moving; she never really stopped except for a brief bit in Qarth (and that worked out well...)

Yea she's always in the pyramid, I think the only other time she gets out is when the sick Astapori arrive, and the times you mentioned.

[HexMachina]

Good point. Also, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but apart from the wedding and then the pit scene, does Dany ever leave the pyramid? It is as if she is literally stuck in one place and can't get out--which works for her Dance arc over all. It's also a drastic change from her first three books in which she was constantly moving; she never really stopped except for a brief bit in Qarth (and that worked out well...)

Yeah, she goes out to the Astapori refugee camp. But she never seems to go out among her people as much as I'd expect of her

[Parwan]

Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™, on 21 Aug 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

Good point. Also, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but apart from the wedding and then the pit scene, does Dany ever leave the pyramid? It is as if she is literally stuck in one place and can't get out--which works for her Dance arc over all. It's also a drastic change from her first three books in which she was constantly moving; she never really stopped except for a brief bit in Qarth (and that worked out well...)

Yeah, she goes out to the Astapori refugee camp. But she never seems to go out among her people as much as I'd expect of her

A number of questions and possibilities arise.

In a way, Dany very much goes out among the people when she tries to help the Astapori refugees. This was a brave but questionable move. Should the queen put herself in such danger?

This brings up a more general point. Different monarchs have different styles. It is pretty common for kings and queens to appear in public as some sort of great "performance." They come out onto an elevated platform to the cheers of an adoring multitude. They and their retinues take part in great national and religious ceremonies, etc. Such things can be effective. They do not, however, fit too well with Dany's style.

One possible way of looking at matters is to say that Dany started out as a tribal leader and moved to being a monarch. Leading a small band across a wasteland is not the same thing as trying to rule a large city. Daenerys Targaryen did the first thing well. She has been less successful in the second endeavor. She has to find a way to adapt her ability as a hands-on leader, mother figure, etc. to the ruling of large bodies of diverse and sometimes hostile people.

[SeanF]

A number of questions and possibilities arise.

In a way, Dany very much goes out among the people when she tries to help the Astapori refugees. This was a brave but questionable move. Should the queen put herself in such danger?

This brings up a more general point. Different monarchs have different styles. It is pretty common for kings and queens to appear in public as some sort of great "performance." They come out onto an elevated platform to the cheers of an adoring multitude. They and their retinues take part in great national and religious ceremonies, etc. Such things can be effective. They do not, however, fit too well with Dany's style.

One possible way of looking at matters is to say that Dany started out as a tribal leader and moved to being a monarch. Leading a small band across a wasteland is not the same thing as trying to rule a large city. Daenerys Targaryen did the first thing well. She has been less successful in the second endeavor. She has to find a way to adapt her ability as a hands-on leader, mother figure, etc. to the ruling of large bodies of diverse and sometimes hostile people.

PR has always been important for royalty. Dany, however, has never been trained for the position of Queen. She's spent her formative years with Viserys, Illyrio, Dothraki, freed slaves and sellswords.

[BearQueen87]

A number of questions and possibilities arise.

In a way, Dany very much goes out among the people when she tries to help the Astapori refugees. This was a brave but questionable move. Should the queen put herself in such danger?

I think the answer to this question is, no the queen should not. But a mother should. And that's how she presents herself in that chapter.

This brings up a more general point. Different monarchs have different styles. It is pretty common for kings and queens to appear in public as some sort of great "performance." They come out onto an elevated platform to the cheers of an adoring multitude. They and their retinues take part in great national and religious ceremonies, etc. Such things can be effective. They do not, however, fit too well with Dany's style.

PR has always been important for royalty. Dany, however, has never been trained for the position of Queen. She's spent her formative years with Viserys, Illyrio, Dothraki, freed slaves and sellswords.

I definitely agree that Dany needs some better PR. A good Hand--a good Westerosi Hand at that--could tell this sort of information. She can't lock herself in her pyramid. It's like Daario told her in this chapter (jokingly, I think, but there is some truth) that his captains are beginning to doubt whether or not she's real. Now that she can ride Drogon, flying a dragon would be good PR. Look at how much the entire pit event discussed by the slaves of Yunkai in about two Tyrion chapters from now. Dany could easily stage "dragon flying" PR events that end with her landing and giving out food, money, ect. Something that combines her "Dragon Queen" with her "Mother of Dragons" personas.

[HexMachina]

I think the answer to this question is, no the queen should not. But a mother should. And that's how she presents herself in that chapter.

Perhaps entering a plague camp is a bit too drastic for a Queen, but walking among the commons isn't. Margaery does this, handing food out to the people of King's Landing. I definitely agree that PR is important, especially with all the slander against her

[Maia]

Guncer Sunglass was burned for religious reasons. His only crime was refusing to follow Stannis after Mel had the sept destroyed.

Well, to be fair, most of the people burned to ensure fair winds for Stannis's passage to Eastwatch were those who protested or tried to prevent by force of arms desecration of the sept of Dragonstone. Lord Sunglass told Stannis that he couldn't serve him after that and burned too.

Only Alester Florent was executed for something else - namely for starting to treat with Lannisters for peace without Stannis's permission. But even he didn't try to sell out Stannis or betray him into the hands of his enemies or anything.

IMHO, none of these people really deserved to die and executions weren't just, even leaving aside the cruel method.

There may be no god, or gods, in-universe, but there is clearly great magical power that can be tapped, by means of human sacrifice, particularly sacrifice by burning.

Neither Mirri nor the First Men seen in Bran's vision employed burning. I don't see why magic can't be fueled by normal executions, if taking of blood/life is indeed required.

Which is unclear, since Thoros appeared to perform his unBeric trick without such. And the firemage in Quarth likely didn't perform human sacrifices either, as he wasn't highly enough placed to afford something like that.

I am actually not at all apprehensive that Dany might fall under the Red Priests' sway. Unlike Stannis and Vic, she has already seen magics performed by people belonging to different religions and knows that their success isn't due to any particular god that a practitioner might worship.

And she was sickened by crucifixions of the Great Masters, she is highly unlikely to sign up on torturous executions by fire, IMHO. Not to mention that she might remember that Mirri's own magics didn't require burning anything. Throat-cutting isn't much different from normal beheading if Dany ever agrees to sacrifice criminals to power magic, which I doubt.

[SeanF]

Daenerys Chapter VIII

The Chapter opens with Daenerys attending a banquet, hosted by Hizdahr, in the Great Pyramid, to celebrate the peace treaty with Yunkai. Although Hizdahr and the Yunkish are enjoying themselves, Daenerys hates it, asking herself “How did this happen, that I am eating and drinking with men that I would sooner flay.” She hardly eats, and thinks “Why does this seem so much like defeat.” Hizdahr remarks that they now have peace, and trade has now resumed. Dany retorts that the Slavers can blockade the city at any point they choose, and they’ve opened a slave market just outside the city walls.

She reflects further on the re-opening of the fighting pits, due to take place the following day. She hates it but “better a few die in the pit than thousands at the gates.” Three Yunkish commanders are present at the banquet. They are almost laughably inept. But, the four sellsword captains are a different matter. They include Brown Ben Plumm, who defected from Dany’s service to the other side. She hates him for this, but has to admit that “You saw me as defeated. And who am I to say that you are wrong.” We learn that her husband has removed the Shavepate from his position, as commander of the brazen beasts, and given the role to a cousin.

We learn from her that seven hostages have been surrendered to the Yunkish, to balance the Yunkish leaders and sellswords. They include Daario. Dany is convinced that Daario would kill the Yunkish envoys if he was present. She concludes that Daario is safer as a hostage. “If he did not betray her, she would master her. She did not know which of those she feared the most.”

After dinner, the Yunkish provide entertainment if the form of a choir of castrati. Their singing is beautiful, but Dany is disgusted that they should have been emasculated. Next, a troupe of acrobats form a human pyramid, with a little girl on top. Dany suspects she is being mocked. She’s disgusted also by the fact that she has to allow the Yunkish to bring their slaves into the city with them.

Hizdahr leads the guests out of the banqueting room, onto a lower terrace. This gives Dany the chance to talk at length to Brown Ben Plumm. He begins by complimenting her beauty, and saying that he intended to bring a her a gift “the head of an old foe.” We know from the preceding chapter that Plumm bid for Tyrion at the slave market, without success. She asks why he betrayed her. He explains that he just went over to the winning side. As far as he is concerned, there are no hard feelings towards Dany. She just shouldn’t trust a sellsword. She sees matters differently, promising “One day I must be sure to thank you for the lesson.”

Dany then turns to Ser Barristan. She suggests assassinating Plumm, and then discusses the possibility of persuading two of the mercenary captains, Gylo Rhegan and the Tattered Prince to switch sides. Ser Barristan admits that he’s not much use, when it comes to such intrigue, and Dany suggests they meet discreetly at a later point. She also instructs Barristan to release Pretty Meris, the Tattered Prince’s lieutenant and torturer, as a goodwill gesture. Barristan does, however, warn her against trying to subborn Bloodbeard, who commands the Company of the Cat. She speculates that the peace will not last and that the Slavers will turn on her at the first opportunity. She also comments internally “I do not trust my husband.”

Barristan notes that the Pale Mare is taking hold among the Slavers (something that Tyrion noted in the previous chapter). Dany says she can’t wait for the plague to finish her enemies, and he should release Pretty Meris at once. Barristan suggests leaving for Dorne, with Quentyn. She rejects this course, saying she would have to abandon all her people, and in any case, Quentyn has brought nothing of any military value.

She then invites Quentyn to come and meet her dragons. She tells him that “the dragon has three heads….my marriage need not be the end of all your hopes.” They enter the dragon pit, where Rhaegal and Viserion are both chained. They roar with flame, frightening Quentyn. She reassures him, holding his hand. She kisses him on each cheek. He tells of the Water Gardens in Sunspear, and their history. She warns him that he has made enemies in Meereen, especially Daario. She also tells him she may be in danger from her husband. They then return to the guests upstairs, as Quentyn tells her of the first Daenerys, who married a Prince of Dorne, to secure peace.

After returning to her bedchamber, she and Hizdahr make perfunctory love. Hizdahr promptly falls asleep. Despite her distrust for him she wishes he would make love to her again, as Daario would.

Missandei then enters the room, and tells her she has heard her crying in the night. She insists she has no reason to cry, and Missandei simply had a bad dream. She asks her to tell her about Naath, and then drifts off to sleep.

[SeanF]

Observations

Never trust a sellsword. Plumm is obviously still trying to keep a foot in Dany’s camp, by attempting to bring her Tyrion, and explaining the reasons for his defection. He knows that the fortunes of war could change again, and wants to make clear that there was nothing personal about his changing sides.

This cuts both ways. Readers know, from Quentyn’s last chapter, that the Tattered Prince has a low opinion of the Yunkish, and is quite prepared to change sides, if the price is right. Dany doesn’t know this, but has a shrewd suspicion that he might be willing to switch. If he did so, that would make her almost equal in terms of cavalry strength to her enemies, and do much to even the military balance

Freedom and Slavery can’t co-exist. Hizdahr (and some of the Yunkish) thinks this is possible. Dany feels nothing but disgust that she has to permit the Yunkish envoys to bring slaves with them into a free city. Ultimately, a country that outlaws slavery has to treat it as illegal everywhere. That doesn’t necessarily mean going to war with slave states, but it does mean refusing to acknowledge that anyone can be held as a slave on their own soil. Whether she likes it or not, Daenerys is now an existential threat to the institution of slavery in Essos. She has inspired the slaves of Volantis with the hope of freedom.

Dany and Quentyn.

Is she implying that she could still take him as a future husband, in addition to Hizdahr? She knows very well that Hizdahr would never be accepted as King Consort in Westeros. Does she imagine that Quentyn could fill that role in Westeros, while Hizdahr remains in Meereen? Or is she indicating that he could be the rider of one her dragons? If the latter, it sets off a train of thought in Quentyn’s mind that will end disastrously for him.

Analysis

Chapter VII probably represents the lowest point in Dany’s arc in this book. That is the point at which she almost seems to have given up caring about ruling Meereen. She is depressed, apathetic, and can see no way out of her predicament.

Dany is still depressed in this chapter, but seems to be recovering the powers of observation that have eluded her previously. She is also starting to think shrewdly about ways of shifting the balance of power in her favour. It seems clear to me that not only does she doubt whether the peace will hold, she is actively planning to break it. This may seem duplicitous on her part, but we’ll learn in subsequent chapters that many of the Slavers have no intention of keeping to the peace terms either. In fact, they’ve already broken the peace by holding a slave market outside Meereen. The peace terms did not require Dany to cede territory to the Slavers, and Meereen and its surrounding territory remain free of slavery.

Generally, her instincts in this chapter are good. She is right to think that some of the sellswords can be bought. Her overtures to the Tattered Prince are likely to bear fruit when battle is subsequently joined, outside Meereen. She is right to realise that she has made a bad bargain with the Slavers. She is right to seek to keep Quentyn on-side. It’s just a pity that he subsequently set out to achieve a Meereenese Darwin Award.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Observations

Never trust a sellsword. Plumm is obviously still trying to keep a foot in Dany’s camp, by attempting to bring her Tyrion, and explaining the reasons for his defection. He knows that the fortunes of war could change again, and wants to make clear that there was nothing personal about his changing sides.

This cuts both ways. Readers know, from Quentyn’s last chapter, that the Tattered Prince has a low opinion of the Yunkish, and is quite prepared to change sides, if the price is right. Dany doesn’t know this, but has a shrewd suspicion that he might be willing to switch. If he did so, that would make her almost equal in terms of cavalry strength to her enemies, and do much to even the military balance

Thanks for the great analysis Sean :)

Freedom and Slavery can’t co-exist. Hizdahr (and some of the Yunkish) thinks this is possible. Dany feels nothing but disgust that she has to permit the Yunkish envoys to bring slaves with them into a free city. Ultimately, a country that outlaws slavery has to treat it as illegal everywhere. That doesn’t necessarily mean going to war with slave states, but it does mean refusing to acknowledge that anyone can be held as a slave on their own soil. Whether she likes it or not, Daenerys is now an existential threat to the institution of slavery in Essos. She has inspired the slaves of Volantis with the hope of freedom.

I fully agree with this, as the saying goes "when you go to Rome live like the Romans" allowing the Yunkish to bring slaves seems just like a gradual process of slavery being re-opened in Meereen, and I think it comes down to Hizdahr more interested in the pits being re-opened and not caring about slavery being abolished.

Dany and Quentyn.

Is she implying that she could still take him as a future husband, in addition to Hizdahr? She knows very well that Hizdahr would never be accepted as King Consort in Westeros. Does she imagine that Quentyn could fill that role in Westeros, while Hizdahr remains in Meereen? Or is she indicating that he could be the rider of one her dragons? If the latter, it sets off a train of thought in Quentyn’s mind that will end disastrously for him.

I think she wanted to see whether he wouldn't be afraid of the dragons or if they would like him and from that she would judge whether he could be a rider. Unfortunately she saw that he was afraid of them. I also thought this scene showed some political shrewdness on Dany's part for a young girl and which is expected of her as a leader, when she states:

“My marriage need not be the end of all your hopes. I know why you are here.” “For you,” said Quentyn, all awkward gallantry. “No,” said Dany. “For fire and blood.”

So from this we can tell Dany knows Dorne are playing their own game and are not just here to help her be Queen, they are using her for a means to an end, something Viserys wouldn't have realized.

Analysis

Chapter VII probably represents the lowest point in Dany’s arc in this book. That is the point at which she almost seems to have given up caring about ruling Meereen. She is depressed, apathetic, and can see no way out of her predicament.

Dany is still depressed in this chapter, but seems to be recovering the powers of observation that have eluded her previously. She is also starting to think shrewdly about ways of shifting the balance of power in her favour. It seems clear to me that not only does she doubt whether the peace will hold, she is actively planning to break it. This may seem duplicitous on her part, but we’ll learn in subsequent chapters that many of the Slavers have no intention of keeping to the peace terms either. In fact, they’ve already broken the peace by holding a slave market outside Meereen. The peace terms did not require Dany to cede territory to the Slavers, and Meereen and its surrounding territory remain free of slavery.

Generally, her instincts in this chapter are good. She is right to think that some of the sellswords can be bought. Her overtures to the Tattered Prince are likely to bear fruit when battle is subsequently joined, outside Meereen. She is right to realise that she has made a bad bargain with the Slavers. She is right to seek to keep Quentyn on-side. It’s just a pity that he subsequently set out to achieve a Meereenese Darwin Award.

Yes I agree with the bolded, this chapter did seem to show Dany getting back to her oldself a bit. I think it can also be symbolized by her Dragons chains starting to break.

I also wanted to talk about the peace, I think the peace was always doomed from the start even if Drogon never came to the pit.

When Dany began freeing slaves, she had made a lot enemies both in and out of Meereen, as Daario pointed out in an earlier chapter they would be happy to see Dany get killed. At this point her situation is more like "me vs the world", she is in a war.

Because of Dany's mission to end slavery, she has angered most of the continent, it's almost too late to make compromises, any compromise she makes is going to end in "We want slavery back"

If she truly wants to end slavery and at the same time to end the killings of the Harpy, and at the same time stop the Yunkish forces and also at the same time stop the whole of Essos from attacking her, a compromise isn't enough at this point, maybe earlier when she began but its too late.

At this point Dany has to realize "it's war" and compromises with enemies won't win wars.

Some other positives in this chapter is Dany realizing that she can't save every single person that dies.

No queen has clean hands, Dany told herself. She thought of Doreah, of Quaro, of Eroeh … of a little girl she had never met, whose name had been Hazzea.

.

This is a big part in Dany's arc as she gets psychologically affected from the death of everyone that died indirectly at her hands, I think it's about time she realizes some things aren't in her control.

[BearQueen87]

Daenerys Chapter VIII

Thanks for a really great analysis, SeanF!

Never trust a sellsword. Plumm is obviously still trying to keep a foot in Dany’s camp, by attempting to bring her Tyrion, and explaining the reasons for his defection. He knows that the fortunes of war could change again, and wants to make clear that there was nothing personal about his changing sides.

This cuts both ways. Readers know, from Quentyn’s last chapter, that the Tattered Prince has a low opinion of the Yunkish, and is quite prepared to change sides, if the price is right. Dany doesn’t know this, but has a shrewd suspicion that he might be willing to switch. If he did so, that would make her almost equal in terms of cavalry strength to her enemies, and do much to even the military balance

Given that BBP is very much acting like a sellsword (who literally sell their swords) I'm still inclined to think BBP is not one of the 3 betrayals from Dany's HOTU vision.

Like you said, Dany has shrewd suspicions but she needs to act on them. Her apathy and ennui are getting the best of her in this chapter. It's like she's simply moving from one place to the next without any direction or any care.

Freedom and Slavery can’t co-exist. Hizdahr (and some of the Yunkish) thinks this is possible. Dany feels nothing but disgust that she has to permit the Yunkish envoys to bring slaves with them into a free city. Ultimately, a country that outlaws slavery has to treat it as illegal everywhere. That doesn’t necessarily mean going to war with slave states, but it does mean refusing to acknowledge that anyone can be held as a slave on their own soil. Whether she likes it or not, Daenerys is now an existential threat to the institution of slavery in Essos. She has inspired the slaves of Volantis with the hope of freedom.

I agree with you and I agree with Queen Alysanne. Slowly but surely, Slaver's Bay would return to their old ways, and end everything Dany tried so hard to fight for.

Dany and Quentyn.

Is she implying that she could still take him as a future husband, in addition to Hizdahr? She knows very well that Hizdahr would never be accepted as King Consort in Westeros. Does she imagine that Quentyn could fill that role in Westeros, while Hizdahr remains in Meereen? Or is she indicating that he could be the rider of one her dragons? If the latter, it sets off a train of thought in Quentyn’s mind that will end disastrously for him.

It's not the first time she's thought about taking two husbands, ever since Jorah suggested it on Balerion. But I don't think she's entertaining thoughts of marrying Quentyn at this point. I doubt she's ever seriously entertained the idea. But right now she's surrounded by people who are not "hers" despite her previous claims that they were her children/people. Look at how the chapter opens: "Yunkish laugher, Yunkish songs, Yunkish prayers, songs of Old Ghis," complete with a meal that is very Ghiscari and not Westerosi. Right now, Quentyn is one of the few truly Westerosi people with Dany. Barry is there as well, of course and we see how much she's grown to depend on her white shadow. One of the big problems, though, is that both Quentyn and Barry are useless in matters of state. So even Dany's only Westerosi link aren't doing her any good at the moment. She really is alone.

Chapter VII probably represents the lowest point in Dany’s arc in this book. That is the point at which she almost seems to have given up caring about ruling Meereen. She is depressed, apathetic, and can see no way out of her predicament.

While the previous Dany chapter is my least favorite, this is one of the saddest Dany chapters in probably the whole series to date. Even when she was starving in the Red Waste, Dany had hope. Even after she lost Rhaego, Dany got on her feet and tried to lead. This is Dany at her lowerst, you're right.

Yes I agree with the bolded, this chapter did seem to show Dany getting back to her oldself a bit. I think it can also be symbolized by her Dragons chains starting to break.

That's a really fantastic observation, QA.

Some other things from this chapter

1) Hizdahr and Dany's marriage. What a sham. Even though I am not a Dany/Daario fan, at least sex with Daario was by choice and satisfying. The fact that Hizzy "tears her robe from her" and "tumbles her backwards" and Dany "lets him have his way" is just unbelievably depressing. It's almost violating. Dany has no desire to sleep with him, but she knows she must. This is the first time we've really seen this with Dany. Drogo aroused her enough in Dany II in GOT that she said, "yes" in the end. She and Daario were obviously drawn sexually to each other. But with Hizzy, it's very Cersei and Robert. Cersei lets Robert do what he wants, but derives no joy or pleasure from it and is actually rather disgusted. And in the end, Dany doesn't really want Hizzy to wake up and have sex with her again, she wants intimacy. She's scared and alone and sad and she wants someone to make her feel better. That's where Missandei comes in, thankfully.

2)

We learn from her that seven hostages have been surrendered to the Yunkish, to balance the Yunkish leaders and sellswords. They include Daario. Dany is convinced that Daario would kill the Yunkish envoys if he was present. She concludes that Daario is safer as a hostage. “If he did not betray her, she would master her. She did not know which of those she feared the most.”

Whether or not Daario will betray Dany in the end is still debatable but she does recognize that their love affair is a dangerous one. She looses either way. It's a hard lesson for her to learn but one that's vital.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

1) Hizdahr and Dany's marriage. What a sham. Even though I am not a Dany/Daario fan, at least sex with Daario was by choice and satisfying. The fact that Hizzy "tears her robe from her" and "tumbles her backwards" and Dany "lets him have his way" is just unbelievably depressing. It's almost violating. Dany has no desire to sleep with him, but she knows she must. This is the first time we've really seen this with Dany. Drogo aroused her enough in Dany II in GOT that she said, "yes" in the end. She and Daario were obviously drawn sexually to each other. But with Hizzy, it's very Cersei and Robert. Cersei lets Robert do what he wants, but derives no joy or pleasure from it and is actually rather disgusted. And in the end, Dany doesn't really want Hizzy to wake up and have sex with her again, she wants intimacy. She's scared and alone and sad and she wants someone to make her feel better. That's where Missandei comes in, thankfully.

2)

Whether or not Daario will betray Dany in the end is still debatable but she does recognize that their love affair is a dangerous one. She looses either way. It's a hard lesson for her to learn but one that's vital.

Yea that part was really depressing, it's like she's lost all her freedom. It's just as Daario said, if she marries Hizdahr she will be like all other Queens that just have children for men.

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In regard to this chapter I also wanted to talk about Dan't dream at the end.

Missandei did her best. She was still talking when Dany finally fell to sleep, to dream queer, half-formed dreams of smoke and fire. The morning came too soon.

Targaryens are known for having dreams that foretold the future ever since the Doom. This dream seems to be one of them and I think it foretells Drogon return in the next chapter which will involve smoke and fire.

[Parwan]

The hostage situation is absurd. Daario says, "I will leave my girls with you." My words would be, "What fucking idiot agreed to this arrangement?" When the queen went out to bring food to the Astapori, how many Yunkish hostages did she demand be taken into Meereen to "balance" her followers who had to go among her enemies and among sick people these enemies had brought to her doorstep? Who said that the party "celebrating" the peace had to be held within the walls of the city? Are the Yunkai'i and the sellswords disarmed? Are they in any way restrained, prevented from leaving the city if they wish to? If there is a supposed danger to Daenerys's foes, then they can bring more armed men with them*, or they can stay in their camps. In all, is there even a trace of a hint of a suggestion that there is some "hostage exchange" here?

Was Khal Drogo a pacifist?

If I were one of the "seven of its own" that Meereen sent out to the siege camp for this ridiculous "balance," I would have lots of bad things to say about the matter. If I had it in my power to refuse to go, I would absolutely do so. This would be particularly true if I were Groleo. There's a guy who really got the shaft. We know how badly things will go for him. Even at this stage though, it's clear that he is being treated unfairly. Why was he chosen? Sorry, but if I were the so-called "admiral," I would by now have lost all faith in Daenerys Targaryen.

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* I presume that the leaders who came into the city brought bodyguards. The first sentence of the chapter starts with "The hall rang to Yunkish laughter..." That doesn't sound to me like there were just three guys and the entertainers they brought with them. And if they didn't bring guards, why the hell not? That would have been a much more reasonable security arrangement. Each of the Wise Masters who arrives at court in a later chapter brings his own armed entourage.

[SeanF]

Queen Alysanne, and Bear Queen, thanks.

Parwan. Actually, taking hostages seems bog-standard to me. Even if the Wise Masters and Sellswords bring bodyguards, they'd still be massively outnumbered in Meereen, and could be easily cut down.

[PatrickStormborn]

Great analysis, Sean. I agree that this is Dany's lowest point - perhaps it would be appropriate to say that her fires have burned as low as ever in this chapter. She's still preparing for a fight, as is shown by her plotting to have the Tattered Prince switch sides, but she's surrounded by enemies and weary of the re-opening of the Fighting Pits.

I think the final passage is perhaps the most significant:

"This one heard you crying."

"Crying? I was not crying. Why would I cry? I have my peace, I have my king, I have everything a queen might wish for. You had a bad dream, that was all."

"As you say, Your Grace." She bowed and made to go.

"Stay," said Dany. "I do not wish to be alone."

"His Grace is with you," Missandei pointed out.

"His Grace is dreaming, but I cannot sleep. On the morrow I must bathe in blood. The price of peace." She smiled wanly and patted the bed. "Come. Sit. Talk with me."

She thinks she has everything she should want, but it's not enough. She also accepts blood as "the price of peace"... But will she accept the blood that the Yunkish and the Meereenese want her to pay? Or will she come to accept a different kind of blood as the price of peace?

The hostage situation is absurd. Daario says, "I will leave my girls with you." My words would be, "What fucking idiot agreed to this arrangement?" When the queen went out to bring food to the Astapori, how many Yunkish hostages did she demand be taken into Meereen to "balance" her followers who had to go among her enemies and among sick people these enemies had brought to her doorstep? Who said that the party "celebrating" the peace had to be held within the walls of the city? Are the Yunkai'i and the sellswords disarmed? Are they in any way restrained, prevented from leaving the city if they wish to? If there is a supposed danger to Daenerys's foes, then they can bring more armed men with them*, or they can stay in their camps. In all, is there even a trace of a hint of a suggestion that there is some "hostage exchange" here?

Was Khal Drogo a pacifist?

If I were one of the "seven of its own" that Meereen sent out to the siege camp for this ridiculous "balance," I would have lots of bad things to say about the matter. If I had it in my power to refuse to go, I would absolutely do so. This would be particularly true if I were Groleo. There's a guy who really got the shaft. We know how badly things will go for him. Even at this stage though, it's clear that he is being treated unfairly. Why was he chosen? Sorry, but if I were the so-called "admiral," I would by now have lost all faith in Daenerys Targaryen.

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* I presume that the leaders who came into the city brought bodyguards. The first sentence of the chapter starts with "The hall rang to Yunkish laughter..." That doesn't sound to me like there were just three guys and the entertainers they brought with them. And if they didn't bring guards, why the hell not? That would have been a much more reasonable security arrangement. Each of the Wise Masters who arrives at court in a later chapter brings his own armed entourage.

I have to agree with Sean on this one. This would be a perfect opportunity for Dany to kill the Yunkish leaders and take the besiegers unaware. Plus they don't trust her after she set Grazdan mo Eraz's tokar on fire back in ASoS. :P

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Good analysis. Thanks for the great work.

This chapter (and that will also be seen in future chapters too) shows how much alike Cersei's and Dany's chapters are, Looks like GRRM enjoys to make parallels with them. In Storms and Feast, Cersei sees herself as a mare when others discuss a marriage for here. Dany, in a way, proves her right: this marriage is taming her because they are using her and she has been stripped from part of her power (and strength). Yet, she goes to the marriage willingly because it could help to bring the peace she needs. In Cersei's case, she's not a strange on stranger lands like Dany: a marriage could help her to rule effectively because we know she has no idea how to rule. She refuses thinking she alone is enough. And she's very very wrong.

"[...]a prince especially has good cause to be wary … but go too far down that road, and the mistrust can poison you, make you sour and fearful".

That quote above is the advice Aegon receives when he asks about trust, specially trusting sellwords. But that piece of advice could be useful to everybody who wants to rule. "mistrust can poison you, make you sour and fearful". Dany is wary and it's working for her because she's right to be: she is a foreign person in a land she doesn't belong. People don't care about her heritage nor her life, opinions and wishes. And if she's killed, they win. Cersei mistrusts everybody who does not agree with her, and sees them as enemies, making her sour and fearful indeed. And, even when there are people who indeed have good intentions, she won't listen to them.

That also happened to Dany's own father. We remember he saw conspiracies everywhere. He thought his son wanted to remove him and he mistrusted him. Yet, we know that while Rhaegar could have indeed wanted that, he didn't do it for ambition or his own personal gain: it was because he was a dangerous ruler. He didn't want him to receive any harm either.

And while Dany is also in a dangerous situation (that she got herself into, like Aerys and Dukensdale), she isn't turning paranoid, crazy, sour nor fearful: she's cautious like any other ruler should be, specially in war times. She wants Plumm killed but she has reasons for that. She doesn't trust her husband but she's not trying to kill him with poison and wine. She has three dragons to burn the whole city to the ground, like Aerys intended to do when he saw himself surrounded and defeated. She, otoh, has chained them and agreed to peace. Dany is far from mad despite her situation isn't as different as Aerys' at the end of the Rebellion. He sired her, but Dany is not Aerys' daughter. Cersei is the one becoming Aerys III, fire fetish and all involved.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Observations

Never trust a sellsword. Plumm is obviously still trying to keep a foot in Dany’s camp, by attempting to bring her Tyrion, and explaining the reasons for his defection. He knows that the fortunes of war could change again, and wants to make clear that there was nothing personal about his changing sides.

This cuts both ways. Readers know, from Quentyn’s last chapter, that the Tattered Prince has a low opinion of the Yunkish, and is quite prepared to change sides, if the price is right. Dany doesn’t know this, but has a shrewd suspicion that he might be willing to switch. If he did so, that would make her almost equal in terms of cavalry strength to her enemies, and do much to even the military balance

Freedom and Slavery can’t co-exist. Hizdahr (and some of the Yunkish) thinks this is possible. Dany feels nothing but disgust that she has to permit the Yunkish envoys to bring slaves with them into a free city. Ultimately, a country that outlaws slavery has to treat it as illegal everywhere. That doesn’t necessarily mean going to war with slave states, but it does mean refusing to acknowledge that anyone can be held as a slave on their own soil. Whether she likes it or not, Daenerys is now an existential threat to the institution of slavery in Essos. She has inspired the slaves of Volantis with the hope of freedom.

Dany and Quentyn.

Is she implying that she could still take him as a future husband, in addition to Hizdahr? She knows very well that Hizdahr would never be accepted as King Consort in Westeros. Does she imagine that Quentyn could fill that role in Westeros, while Hizdahr remains in Meereen? Or is she indicating that he could be the rider of one her dragons? If the latter, it sets off a train of thought in Quentyn’s mind that will end disastrously for him.

Analysis

Chapter VII probably represents the lowest point in Dany’s arc in this book. That is the point at which she almost seems to have given up caring about ruling Meereen. She is depressed, apathetic, and can see no way out of her predicament.

Dany is still depressed in this chapter, but seems to be recovering the powers of observation that have eluded her previously. She is also starting to think shrewdly about ways of shifting the balance of power in her favour. It seems clear to me that not only does she doubt whether the peace will hold, she is actively planning to break it. This may seem duplicitous on her part, but we’ll learn in subsequent chapters that many of the Slavers have no intention of keeping to the peace terms either. In fact, they’ve already broken the peace by holding a slave market outside Meereen. The peace terms did not require Dany to cede territory to the Slavers, and Meereen and its surrounding territory remain free of slavery.

Generally, her instincts in this chapter are good. She is right to think that some of the sellswords can be bought. Her overtures to the Tattered Prince are likely to bear fruit when battle is subsequently joined, outside Meereen. She is right to realise that she has made a bad bargain with the Slavers. She is right to seek to keep Quentyn on-side. It’s just a pity that he subsequently set out to achieve a Meereenese Darwin Award.

Thanx for the analysis SeanF :)

I agree with most of what you say. I will just add a few things;

I think TYrion is right in the WoW sample chapter when he says that BBP was planning on defecting back to Dany the whole time. I think he is playing both sides, but in the end he likes Dany and wants to help her, he does not want to die for her but he is not a bad guy IMO.

I agree that freedom and slavery cannot co-exist peacefully for long at all, not if there is someone like Dnay around who is disgusted to the core by the ideas of slavery. If it were someone who had less determination or someone who could be bought easier, or someone who will just bend to the highest bidder, then none of this would be a problem. Of course Dany is far more staunch and steadfast than that, so she is havign a terrible time in life right now. Everything she has tried to accomplish is slowly being hacked away to the way it was before she got there. 'This is the price of peace'. Personally I think Dany's way is better. ending slavery is a nasty business, but I think she was doing a bang-up job before she got to Meereen and had all these people whispering in her ear and trying to check her at every step. SHe should just go with her gut more often. in fact, the only thing that has stopped her is the death of her own people, the freedmen and followers that are with her are being killed and so she had to sacrifice everything to make peace. She had to marry this d-bag, had to compromise on all her slavery and fighting pit stances, and it really sucks for her. Yunkai is putting so much pressure on her, she is messing with their eons old abhorrent lifestyle and money. They make their money buying/selling and killing humans and she has messed that up. She personally threatens the slave trade in the entire ocean and slavers from Meereen to Volantis are feeling it in their wallets (poor guys).

I feel very bad for her at this point, she is getting painted further and further into a corner with no way out except on dragon back :) (still to come)

All these threads about the slavers, and defense of the slavers and all that stupid shit are wrong. I'm sorry but they are. Slavery and the whole slavery economy of SB should be wiped off the planet, Dany is the only one in a hundred miles who has the right idea and now that she has chained her dragons, no one will listen to her. They figure if her dragons are chained then she can be chained as well, she can be married to ancient noble ghiscari blood, they can parade acrobatic slaves right in front of her while making fun of her no less, and they can reopen the fighting pits where innocent slaves are fed to lions and boars. They can do all this right in front of her because she has no dragons and has (temporarily) lost the will to fight her causes. She has found that simply agreeing and donning the floppy ears makes the slavers happy, not to mention it seems to be on the same course with what so many of the Dany-haters on this forum would prefer her to do as well, which is fall in line and act like a woman should. Seems odd that so many people can actually wax poetic about ideas that they share with Yunkish Slavers. ( I am not talking about anyone in our re-read, only the posters who keep making the 163 and Slaver threads every other day).

When she takes Quentyn to the Dragon cave, we see again the dragons strong bond with Dany as they begin roaring long before she gets there as they can sense their dragonlord is nearby. Quentyn is scared and nervous of the dragons and of Dany and it shows. Dany knows this is not the guy for her, and rightly warns him of the danger he is in. But I do think it is very interesting how frankly she talks to him. She doesnt lie or beat around the bush or even give the pretense of liking her husband or being loyal to him in any way. She talks to Quentyn as if they are both trapped in the same pyramid and she knows the way out but cannot take it, so she at least tries to help him escape. As I said earlier the dragons are her only way out, also I think it is sort of important that the dragons have been locked up so long and were not yet that big when she initially cages them. So all the Ghiscari sort of forget about them and swarm around Dany like a pack of vultures, and she has nothing to defend her. She cannot go forward or do anything without them. Like her inner fire is trapped and she is showing it to someone secretly while a party from The Divine Comedy rages upstairs.

I think all the compromises Dany is making during this chapter really weigh on her, she hates compromising. She knows she is in the right, but has been forced into submission, I think that all this is what makes her throw off her floppy ears in the pit and embrace the dragon. So it was a journey she had to go on to see how it felt to bow down to these MFer's, which in turn made her realize this is not the path for her, she is destined to fly above that path.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Ill post Tyrion X tomorrow :) Give us another day to keep discussing.

[HexMachina]

I think TYrion is right in the WoW sample chapter when he says that BBP was planning on defecting back to Dany the whole time. I think he is playing both sides, but in the end he likes Dany and wants to help her, he does not want to die for her but he is not a bad guy IMO.

I disagree. Brown Ben Plumm is first and foremost an opportunist and survivor. He will back whichever side he thinks is the most likely to win. He jumps ship when Dany's cause looks lost (which looks ever more likely when she refuses to unleash her dragons), and is prepared to jump back in with her once things are going her way again

he is really only fully convinced after he hears that the Windblown have turned cloaks

"I told you once, there are old sellswords and there are bold sellswords, but there are no old bold sellswords. My boys didn’t care to die, that’s all, and when I told them that you couldn’t unleash them dragons against the Yunkishmen, well …”

[Suzanna Stormborn]

2I disagree. Brown Ben Plumm is first and foremost an opportunist and survivor. He will back whichever side he thinks is the most likely to win. He jumps ship when Dany's cause looks lost (which looks ever more likely when she refuses to unleash her dragons), and is prepared to jump back in with her once things are going her way again

he is really only fully convinced after he hears that the Windblown have turned cloaks

21?

Yeah I mean he is an opportunist for sure, but I suspected during all of DwD that he would be back on Dany's side before long, then he was in the sample chapter. Maybe it's the writing, but either way I posited that he would prefer to be on Dany's side.