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Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-read Project Part V: ADWD


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Great job with the chapter analysis, Suzanna. Thanks. I just have a lot of catching up to do and will throw in my craziness where I can. Great job, the thread looking as awesome as always.

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Good work, Suzanna. I have to admit I'm enjoying this rereadings for two main reason.

1. As I said before (I think) I got Dance before the erm... "official" translation of the book was available around here and I read a fanmade version. The translation was terrible and many chapters were a bit dense for me to read because I had to guess what they actually meant (some things were literally translated). I later got the right book, but still. I approached the book in the wrong way.

2. Also, I really don't like to read these kind of chapters. The whole slavery situation and the Ghiscary culture is disturbing. Not my fav. part of neither ASOIAF nor real history (slavery, I mean). So, the r-readings are helping me to catch up the parts I missed.

My poor Bear. But...this is kinda what he needs to change. Change doesn't come to Jorah overnight; he's not going to see the error of his beliefs and ways and actions until his situation utterly changes. And it has. A smattering of quotes:

They laughed. They couldn't laugh at Jorah because they didn't know his real feelings. They laughed at Dany, marrying a slaver. That kinda supports what it has been discussed in previous posts, that the slavers are mocking her. They definitely think her decision of marrying one of them was poor.

2) Nurse calls Jorah "bear" and even Tyrion can see that this angers Jorah quite a bit. Of course it does. Who calls him "my bear?"

Whenever someone calls the Mormonts "Bears", I think of this. But when Dany calls him a bear, I think of this.

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They laughed. They couldn't laugh at Jorah because they didn't know his real feelings. They laughed at Dany, marrying a slaver. That kinda supports what it has been discussed in previous posts, that the slavers are mocking her. They definitely think her decision of marrying one of them was poor.

Good point. This evokes a memory of ASOS (uh..Dany II?). Dany has gone into Astapor to look at the Unsullied. Kraznys has just finished telling her about the children and the bears. He wants to know if Dany will buy the Unsullied and Dany responds, "I have my own bear on Balerion and he may well eat me if I don't return to him." When Kraznys hears this, he thinks his suspicions are confirmed: Dany has a man that she must check with before she's allowed to do anything. The Slavers see Dany as feminine, weak, and in need of a male hand. She shocks the hell out of them by unleashing Drogon and then later taking Yunkai and Meereen. But then she goes and marries a wealthy slaver who gets her to open the fighting pits. This is confirmation in their eyes that Dany is in fact weak and womanly and in need of a King to command her.

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In this chapter, we see some results of stupidity, and we view a developing story of perfidy.



Concerning the first matter: It is rather incredible that the Yunkai are the leaders of this military campaign. One predictable result of this is the outbreak of plague in the camps of the besiegers. In earlier posts, I mentioned the absurd tactic of creating a cesspool and then inserting your own forces into it. Not only are the men of the Yellow City getting sick, so are the sellswords. Later, we’ll learn that this is also happening to the soldiers of Ghis. Dany’s enemies are numerous. They have material advantages (a fleet being a significant one). If their leaders were intelligent, she would be in really terrible trouble.



Concerning the second matter: Do any of Dany’s foes deal with her honestly? In particular, do any of them accept peace and/or the existence of Meereen as a free city? Generally speaking, the answer is “no.” Some Yunkai, led by Yezzan zo Qaggaz, and some Meereenese, led by Hzdahr zo Loraq, seem to have a belief in a temporary accommodation. They can live and let live for at least a while. Hizdahr tells Daenerys that Meereen cannot stand another war. He appears to be sincere in that. After all, he’s a businessman, and war is not good for his business. He also sells the queen on the idea that Meereen will be free and Yunkai slave-holding. We could see some weakness in this claim in the last Dany chapter. The Yunkismen set up slave markets right outside the walls of Meereen. The king claims that this is only temporary, but who or what guarantees this?



The current Tyrion chapter shows strong proof of treachery on the part of Dany’s enemies. All of those arguments about the glory of pit fighting sound hollow when we see Zahrina bidding on Jorah. Why does she want to purchase him? That is well known: “Cheap fighters, hers. Meat for heroes. Your friend dead soon.” All the stuff that Hizzy and the superstar fighters gave us earlier about glory for the winners and honors for the dead was far from convincing. I don’t think that the criminals and children forced into the pit have much use for such glory and honor. Certainly, none of them come forth to argue for the opening of the pits. Now we know more. It’s clear that the crone is buying a good deal of “meat” to be used in the supposed “free city.” It’s likely that there are others doing the same. It is a common slave soldier who gives Penny and Tryion the info about Mormont’s likely fate. Thus, it is common knowledge. Are any of the Great Masters going to pass this knowledge on to the queen? Hardly. More likely than not, some of them are benefitting from illegal activities like those of Zahrina.



There is talk of the peace in this chapter. There will be more mention of it in later chapters. I think it’s possible that men like Hizdahr and Yezzan believe that it could last for a while. Perhaps they don’t know about the size of the Volanteen fleet nor about the very generous rewards that the sellswords have been promised. Maybe they think a deal is possible that will satisfy everyone. At best, however, their thinking is something along these lines: We’ll keep things as they are for now. In a little while, Daenerys Targaryen will depart for the west. Then things will go back to the way they were. There is some support in the text for this analysis. Perhaps you don’t believe that Dany’s enemies have even this much sincerity. At any rate, it doesn’t come to much. The views I'm attributing to some people are far from universal, perhaps shared by only a small percentage of besiegers and Harpies, and by no Volantenes or their sellswords.


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Good analysis. Thanks for the great work.

This chapter (and that will also be seen in future chapters too) shows how much alike Cersei's and Dany's chapters are, Looks like GRRM enjoys to make parallels with them. In Storms and Feast, Cersei sees herself as a mare when others discuss a marriage for here. Dany, in a way, proves her right: this marriage is taming her because they are using her and she has been stripped from part of her power (and strength). Yet, she goes to the marriage willingly because it could help to bring the peace she needs. In Cersei's case, she's not a strange on stranger lands like Dany: a marriage could help her to rule effectively because we know she has no idea how to rule. She refuses thinking she alone is enough. And she's very very wrong.

"[...]a prince especially has good cause to be wary … but go too far down that road, and the mistrust can poison you, make you sour and fearful".

That quote above is the advice Aegon receives when he asks about trust, specially trusting sellwords. But that piece of advice could be useful to everybody who wants to rule. "mistrust can poison you, make you sour and fearful". Dany is wary and it's working for her because she's right to be: she is a foreign person in a land she doesn't belong. People don't care about her heritage nor her life, opinions and wishes. And if she's killed, they win. Cersei mistrusts everybody who does not agree with her, and sees them as enemies, making her sour and fearful indeed. And, even when there are people who indeed have good intentions, she won't listen to them.

That also happened to Dany's own father. We remember he saw conspiracies everywhere. He thought his son wanted to remove him and he mistrusted him. Yet, we know that while Rhaegar could have indeed wanted that, he didn't do it for ambition or his own personal gain: it was because he was a dangerous ruler. He didn't want him to receive any harm either.

And while Dany is also in a dangerous situation (that she got herself into, like Aerys and Dukensdale), she isn't turning paranoid, crazy, sour nor fearful: she's cautious like any other ruler should be, specially in war times. She wants Plumm killed but she has reasons for that. She doesn't trust her husband but she's not trying to kill him with poison and wine. She has three dragons to burn the whole city to the ground, like Aerys intended to do when he saw himself surrounded and defeated. She, otoh, has chained them and agreed to peace. Dany is far from mad despite her situation isn't as different as Aerys' at the end of the Rebellion. He sired her, but Dany is not Aerys' daughter. Cersei is the one becoming Aerys III, fire fetish and all involved.

I really like this post.

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I know people are probably still reading Suzanna's chapter, but this is due today, so I'll post for whenever people get the chance!

A Dance With Dragons

Tyrion XI

Some men would sooner die free than live a slave, I suppose.

Summary

Tyrion Lannister and Penny attend to their master Yezzan zo Qaggaz as he dies of the pale mare. Realizing that their situation is about to go from bad to worse, Tyrion manages to trick his way out of Yezzan’s camp, along with Penny and Ser Jorah Mormont. Under the guise of fetching water from a nearby well, Tyrion takes in the various preparations for war against Meereen, hears rumors about Daenerys Targaryen after her flight from the Pit, and contemplates the life of a slave. Once their water is collected, Tyrion leads Penny and Jorah to the tent of Brown Ben Plumm and the Second Sons. There, Tyrion offers up his services—and Jorah’s fighting skills—to the Second Sons in return for striking the collars from their necks.

This chapter is sparse on Dany, but it does give the reader insight into the culture and hierarchy amongst the slavers and their slaves. From A Storm of Swords through A Dance with Dragons, we’ve seen Dany tackle slavery with both the repellent slave masters and with the “reformed” ex-slavers. We’ve even heard stories in passing about those who seek to become enslaved, such as Xaro’s story in Dany III. What this chapter provides is a look inside actual slavery, whilst being a slave.

I believe this chapter is most often used to show that Dany’s liberation of Slaver’s Bay was ill conceived as some slaves express a loyalty to their masters and revulsion to freedom. However, I don’t think GRRM is actually making any sort of pro-slavery case or even that the slaves were better off before Dany. In the end, like Tyrion and Jorah, we are supposed to walk away with the understanding that it is better to die free than live a slave.

Observations

1. The Yunkai’i are biding their time until war, even though they’ve signed a peace treaty with Meereen. Most of the Yunkai’i are waiting for the armies of Volantis to arrive, though a few have suggested attacking Meereen before then. Tyrion’s master Yezzan favored sticking with the peace. At this point, there seems no way to solve the problems except through violent confrontation.

2. Tyrion knows that any attempt to kill a dragon with a crossbow will prove futile. He gives a bit of dragon lore here in how to kill a dragon:


The eyes were where a dragon was most vulnerable. The eyes, and the brain behind them. Not the underbelly, as certain old tales would have it. The scales there were just as touch as those along a dragon’s back and flanks. And not down the gullet either. That was madness.

I find it interesting that the best way to kill a literal dragon is through the eyes. We can extend this metaphorically to Daenerys and her powers of observation. Over the past few chapters, her own ample skill in this regard has become clouded and obscured.

3. Tyrion notes that Dany is still naive about siegecraft, given that there is a fully functional well in the middle of the camp. He thinks Lord Tywin would have poisoned the well and let the Yunkishmen drink from the foul river. Naïveté or human compassion? And should she have poisoned the wells?

4. Speaking of Dany, no one knows where she is. The rumors about Dany post-flight from the pit are numerous. Some say she is dead in the Dothraki Sea, some believe she flew away on dragon back and lives, some claim she died by a crossbow and fell into the gutter with other bodies. Tyrion points out that no body was found. Also, Tyrion did not see the dragon himself, something that’s a bit sad given that one of the first things we learned about Tyrion was that he has always wanted to see and fly on the back of a dragon.

Analysis

Slave Hierarchy and Culture

1. Slaves and Their Masters

We have a few examples in this chapter of slaves and one, how they are treated by their masters and two, how they view their masters and freedom. While Yezzan dies, Tyrion, Penny and the hermaphrodite Sweets wonder what will happen to them when their master perishes.


“Some masters free their slaves when they die,” Penny said.

Sweets tittered. It was a ghastly sound. “Only favorites. They free them from the woes of the world, to accompany their beloved master to the grave and serve him in the afterlife.

GRRM is pulling from real world history. Several ancient cultures would bury slaves with their former masters to accompany them in the afterlife. The thought process was that the master would require the same possessions he had in this world, and that included a slave or two (or many). Most associate this practice most heavily with ancient Egypt and, indeed, parts of Slaver’s Bay are based on the ancient Nile River Valley. The point being that even after the master has moved on, the slave is still a possession to be done with as the master dictates. If the slave is not a favorite, and therefore not killed to accompany the master, he might be given away to family or re-sold, as is the case with Tyrion, Penny, and Jorah.

As Tyrion, Penny, and Jorah get water from a well for Yezzan they speak with other slaves who express a seemingly positive outlook on their lot as slaves. While discussing what happened to Dany:


”Might be they did but decided to say elsewise, to keep you slaves quiet.”

Us slaves?” said the brown woman. “You wear a collar too.”

“Ghazdor’s collar,” the old man boasted. “Known him since we was born. I’m almost like a brother to him. Slaves like you, sweepings out of Astapor and Yunkai, you whine about being free, but I wouldn’t give the dragon queen my collar if she offered to suck my cock for it. Man has the right master, that’s better.”

Tyion did not dispute him. The most insidious thing about bondage was how easy it was to grow accustomed to it. The life of most slaves was not all that different from the life of a serving man at Casterly Rock it seemed to him. True, some slave-owners and their overseers were brutal and cruel, but the same was true was of some Westerosi lords and their stewards and bailiffs. Most of the Yunkai’I treated their chattel decently enough, so long as they did their jobs and caused no trouble…and this old man in his rusted collar, with his fierce loyalty to Lord Wobblecheeks, his owner, was not at all atypical.”

I’ll return to the idea of “slaves like you” below but because this is a fairly loaded paragraph so I want to break it down a bit.

A) The slave to Ghazdor seems to believe that he and his master are more than just master/slave but rather as close as brothers. Whether or not this is true we’ll never know, but I do find it an odd idea that if you cared for someone as you cared for a brother you would keep that person in chains. There is a difference between actually being cared for and believing that you are cared for. A large part of this depends on perspective. If you, a slave, are treated in some way that is better than your fellow slaves and are told that you are special, then you begin to forget that you are a piece of property. Sweets is the best example of this. She is Yezzan’s favorite, is given special treatment above everyone, and as such does not wish Yezzan to die. In turn, the other slaves, like the soldiers who do not receive any sort of special treatment, resent Sweets her special status. None of this changes the basic fact that Yezzan is a slaver and that both Sweets and the soldiers are slaves, but their perspective on the matter is vastly different.

B ) This difference in perspective extends to the point where the slave to Ghazdor does not wish to be free even if it was offered to him. Some of this may be fear. If you give a slave their freedom, what do they do next? We have Xaro’s story of someone who sold themselves into slavery, desperate for the life they lost. But, consider this slave at the well. Despite thinking that he is like a brother to his master, he is still doing only hard labor. He is fetching water; he’s not a “favorite” or someone with any discernable skill that affords him special treatment. In other words, in spite of his claim for brotherhood, he is still at the bottom rung of the slave food chain. I think this is really what GRRM is getting at. He doesn’t want you listen to what the slave is saying, but rather what is not being said. This leads us to…

C) Tyrion’s own personal thoughts on this slave’s claims. It’s easy to become accustomed to something. The slave to Ghazdor loves his collar; he wouldn’t take it off for anything. But does he really recognize that he’s a slave? Not really. Tyrion compares this to being a servant in Westeros, specifically in Casterly Rock. But where Tyrion draws a distinction is in this line “Most of the Yunkai’I treated their chattel decently enough, so long as they did their job…” A slave is still a slave even if he thinks he’s not. And a slave, fundamentally, is a piece of property, chattel. And second, what is “decent enough?” Well, it’s whatever the slave master says it is. So if one evening the master decides you haven’t done your job to his satisfaction, then you will not be treated decently enough. The life of the slaves and well being are totally at the whim of the master. Once again, GRRM is putting some different ideas about slavery into Tyrion’s head, but it’s what you read between the lines.

But even Tyrion has his limits. For example, throughout this chapter, Tyrion remarks on the bell that rings as he walks, signaling his status as a slave. The constant jingling is driving him mad because it’s a reinforcement of his status, as it would be for any other slave. When Tyrion frees Jorah from the knight’s cage, he thinks “Some men would sooner die free than live a slave, I suppose. Tyrion was not stricken with that affliction, thankfully…” But Tyrion is lying to himself because in the end he chooses to take the path that will lead him to freedom, even if it means death. By doing this, I would contend that GRRM is making his bold declaration in regards to slavery: it’s wrong. Any attempt at an argument you make as to why it could be okay (the slaves were loyal to their masters) is wrong.

If we extend this to Dany, as I believe GRRM wants us to do, she has been able to see the bigger picture all along: that slavery by any name and under any belief is wrong. Dany knows what it is to be sold, and even though she came to love Khal Drogo very much, she was still a piece of property in the eyes of her brother and Illyrio and even, to a much lesser extent for a shorter period of time, Drogo himself. Dany’s understanding of the different perspective on slavery matches GRRM’s stance. So, something I’ve been saying for awhile now when the idea is posited that the slaves were better off before Dany: the slaves are incapable of agreeing because of their almost brainwashed-like perspective, but most importantly: George R.R. Martin does not agree.

2. Slaves and Other Slaves

Along with slave/master dynamics, we are also given slave/slave interaction in this chapter. The master/slave power balance is replicated amongst the slaves. I already mentioned Sweets and how other non-favorite slaves despise him but this hatred extends to Tyrion as well who notes:


Even amongst slaves there were lords and peasants, as he [Tyrion] had been quick to learn. The hermaphrodite had long been their master’s special pet, indulged and favored, and the noble Yezzan’s other slaves hated him for it. The soldiers were accustomed to taking their commands from their masters and their overseer.

It is only when Tyrion shows deference to the slave soldiers, by calling them Master, that they allow him, Penny, and Jorah to leave and fetch water. We return, then, to the “slaves like you” comment from Ghazdor’s “brother” slave. The sense of entitlement or betterment amongst slaves is learned from their masters. Slaves understand other slaves to be inferior based on how they, in turn, are inferior to their masters. I want to mention the “master-slave dialectic” from Hegel at this point. I won’t spend too much time on this and you can read a more thorough analysis HERE but in sum:


…according to Hegel, both master and slave "recognize" their own existence only in relation or "reconciliation" of the other. Among the many implications of the master-slave dialectic, then, is the idea of there being a reciprocity or mutual dependence between master and slave rather than a blanket opposition of dominance to subordination. The slave ironically shares in the master's power because the master defines himself only in opposition to the slave; that is, the master needs the slave in order to legitimate his comparative privilege.

Slaves treat other slaves—the ones they feel are inferior—with contempt because it solidifies their own standing as better. They need to feel superior to someone (anyone!) because they in turn are inferior to the masters who have collared them. It’s a learned process.

One final point: this is non-cartoony slavery. These people aren’t being rolled in honey and fed to bears. This is a depiction of slavery that was very real for a very long time in many corners of a very real globe.

Amongst the Second Sons


Penny came to a sudden halt. “We’re going the wrong way.”

“We’re not.” Tyrion lowered his pails to the ground. The handles had gouged deep grooves in his fingers. “Those are the tents we want, there.”

“The Second Sons?” A queer smile split Ser Jorah’s face. “If you think to find help there, you don’t know Brown Ben Plumm.”

“Oh, I do. Plumm and I have played five games of cyvasse. Brown Ben is shrewd, tenacious, not unintelligent…but wary. He likes to let his opponent take the risks whilst he sits back and keeps his options open, reacting to the battle as it takes shape.”

[snip]

“Nurse is dead and Yezzan’s dying. It could be dark before anyone thinks to miss us. We will never have a better chance than now.”

Tyrion doesn’t want to live as a slave. It’s as simple as that, really. Even though he has grown accustomed to bondage, he has decided he’d like to live after all; he doesn’t want to be a slave. Tyrion throws his lot in with Brown Ben and the Second Sons because it’s his best shot to get out of that damn collar. There will be a lot more about the Second Sons in the next Tyrion chapter and even more in Winds, but once again we see how Tyrion’s knowledge of dragons helps him out.

The new members of the Second Sons we meet are:

--Inkpots: the company pay master

--Kasporio the Cunning

Both are what you expect from sell swords, insolent and rude and a bit nasty. Tyrion, Jorah, and (poor) Penny are moving from one dangerous situation to the next, but it’s better than being a slave. I also think there is something deeply ironic about Jorah Mormont, the first son and ex-lord of Bear Island, joining a company called “The Second Sons.”

The Humble Bear

Despite having very few lines in this chapter, there is quite a bit going on with Ser Jorah Mormont. The passage is rather long, so I’m only going to quote some selections of how Jorah has “adapted” to slavery.


The knight had not adapted well to bondage…Though he had not attempted escape, nor offered violence to his captors, he would ignore their commands oft as not or reply with muttered curses. None of this had amused Nurse, who made him displeasure clear by confining Mormont in an iron cage and having him beaten every evening as the sun sank into Slaver’s Bay….

The man is a shell, Tyrion thought, the first time he saw the big knight beaten….

Mormont emerged from the cramped confines of the cage bent and squinting, with both eyes blackened and his back crusty with dried blood. His face was so bruised and swollen that he hardly looked human.

This is what happens when slave chattel do not do as they are told. Just like Dany who has been chained to Hizdahr and “caged” inside her pyramid, so too Jorah is chained and caged. This is the lowest we’ve ever seen Jorah. He has been stripped (literally and metaphorically) of everything that made him who he was. He hasn’t been the Lord of Bear Island in about six years; he is no longer Dany’s most trusted adviser and closest friend, and the last vestige of himself was as a knight, and he can’t even be that anymore.

Jorah has always been a very proud man. Even when he finds Tyrion post-banishment, he is wearing his lordly and knightly clothing and throughout the journey to Meereen, Jorah has acted above it all, as if he has not committed any crimes. Here, Jorah is just going through the motions, silent and unaware of the world around him. Jorah has also never seen slavery as necessarily evil; he sold slaves because it was the solution to a problem he had. His pragmatic out view on life does not allow him put things into strictly “good” and “bad” categories; he’ll help free the slaves of Slaver’s Bay for Dany’s cause without having her own moral reasons for it. But I would submit that Jorah is becoming a different man:


Mormont’s face might have been unrecognizable in its battered state, but his voice was unchanged. Kasporio gave him a startled look, whilst the wrinkles around Plumm’s eyes crinkled in amusement. “Jorah Mormont? Is that you? Less proud than when you scampered off, though. Must we still call you ser?”

Ser Jorah’s swollen lips twisted into a grotesque grin. “Give me a sword and you can call me what you like, Ben.”

Kasporio edged backward. “You…she sent you away…”

“I came back. Call me a fool.”

A fool in love.

A) This is another reflection of the master/slave dialectic. Previously, Jorah considered himself to be in the “master” position and the title he demanded he be called shows that. He wanted the sellswords to respect his superior position over them.

B ) Now however the tables are turned and Jorah is just another hard laborer. He does not get the title of “ser” anymore and instead will allow those whom he previous considered inferior to call him whatever they will. In this case, you can even call him a fool. And we'll see in the next chapter that the way he armors himself also shows how his pride has fallen quite a bit.

This is the start of Jorah moving toward center, to a better version of himself. Dany and Jorah have been on parallel journeys this book, both loosing themselves in hopelessness, but both now have to become the person they were always meant to be. And I don’t think—even for a moment—that it’s a coincidence that it’s Dany Jorah “comes back” for and it’s Jorah who gives Dany what she needs most in the Sea.

Conclusions

This marks the end of another transitional moment for Tyrion on his way to meeting Dany. His and Jorah’s time as slaves have given them and the readers a better understanding what slavery is like in Slaver’s Bay and I believe is one of GRRM’s strongest oppositions to slavery itself. Tyrion takes his fate into his own hands, the first time we’ve seen him do this in Dance after being passed from person to person. Jorah finally remembers that he has fight in him. And poor Penny continues to just be along for the ride.

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You make some very good points, BearQueen. The issue of slavery is worthy of a separate post, perhaps two. Here I'll say a few things about other matters.





I find it interesting that the best way to kill a literal dragon is through the eyes. We can extend this metaphorically to Daenerys and her powers of observation. Over the past few chapters, her own ample skill in this regard has become clouded and obscured.




In the next Daenerys chapter, looking into a dragon's eyes will be very important. I'll have some things to say about it.





Also, Tyrion did not see the dragon himself, something that’s a bit sad given that one of the first things we learned about Tyrion was that he has always wanted to see and fly on the back of a dragon.



What Tyrion sees and doesn't see are significant matters. He doesn't get much of a view of Daenerys Targaryen, but he easily identifies the knight at her side. The Imp thinks about revealing himself, then hesitates. Then he considers the matter again. Penny lands a blow, and "the moment was gone." We have a complex situation. Barristan Selmy is not likely to welcome any Lannister. On the other hand, Ser Barristan knows that he is not the man to advise and help the queen on certain matters. I'm sure he would admit that Lord Tyrion is more qualified. Unfortunately, the dwarf's crimes are considered even worse than those of his brother. It's hard to say exactly what will happen if and when Selmy and Lannister come together in the presence of the queen.





This marks the end of another transitional moment for Tyrion on his way to meeting Dany.



And it brings in a good bit of irony. Tyrion is aware of the death-by-lion fate that was planned for him. He might have had "time for a short bitter chortle before being torn apart." He is not aware of the irony on the other side of things. Unknowingly, Dany saved one of the "dogs," or at least a "son of a dog." The Imp's thoughts do not show that he knows why he and Penny were saved from being slaughtered. The information is available though; he has it. Perhaps he will put things together before even meeting Dany.





The final piece fell into place when her heard an animal trainer complaining loudly to the pitmaster. "The lions are hungry. Two days since they ate. I was told not to feed them, and I haven't. The queen should pay for meat."



"You take that up with her the next time she holds court," the pit master threw back at him.




I wonder if Tyrion Lannister will publicly thank Queen Daenerys the next time she holds court. That would lead to an interesting exchange.

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Suzanna, Bear Queen, thank you.

Those are thorough analyses of slavery. Some readers are too prone to take Tyrion's comments on slaves vs servants as implying that slavery really isn't that bad. I think it's more of a commentary on how servants are treated at Casterly Rock.

The treatment of (non-slave) servants is something that deserves a thread of its own. At one end, you get people like Daenerys, Catelyn, Ned who really care about their servants. At the other end, people like the Lannisters who view them as completely expendable.

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You make some very good points, BearQueen. The issue of slavery is worthy of a separate post, perhaps two. Here I'll say a few things about other matters.

Thanks, and I look forward to reading more of your thoughts.

What Tyrion sees and doesn't see are significant matters. He doesn't get much of a view of Daenerys Targaryen, but he easily identifies the knight at her side. The Imp thinks about revealing himself, then hesitates. Then he considers the matter again. Penny lands a blow, and "the moment was gone." We have a complex situation. Barristan Selmy is not likely to welcome any Lannister. On the other hand, Ser Barristan knows that he is not the man to advise and help the queen on certain matters. I'm sure he would admit that Lord Tyrion is more qualified. Unfortunately, the dwarf's crimes are considered even worse than those of his brother. It's hard to say exactly what will happen if and when Selmy and Lannister come together in the presence of the queen.

If Selmy is alive when Dany makes it back to Meereen in Winds (which I actually don't think is likely, sadly) I expect that Selmy will have changed his tune a bit about Tyrion since

it's Tyrion (and Jorah) who get BBP and the Second Sons to switch sides per spoiler chapter

Of course Selmy will still urge Dany to be cautious around Tyrion.

I wonder if Tyrion Lannister will publicly thank Queen Daenerys the next time she holds court. That would lead to an interesting exchange.

I do like that idea

Suzanna, Bear Queen, thank you.

Those are thorough analyses of slavery. Some readers are too prone to take Tyrion's comments on slaves vs servants as implying that slavery really isn't that bad. I think it's more of a commentary on how servants are treated at Casterly Rock.

Thanks. And yeah it's more about Casterly Rock than slavery. And I wonder how Tyrion will react when he learns that 1) Dany freed her slaves at the end of GOT and 2) That her servants (irri, Jhiqui and Messandei) are very devoted to her. In fact I really want a conversation between Messandi and Tyrion now that I'm thinking about it.

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We haven't yet gotten to the pit chapter, right?

I really like this post.

Heh :D

3. Tyrion notes that Dany is still naive about siegecraft, given that there is a fully functional well in the middle of the camp. He thinks Lord Tywin would have poisoned the well and let the Yunkishmen drink from the foul river. Naïveté or human compassion? And should she have poisoned the wells?

This is the second time Tyrion has recalled Tywin in comparison, and also the second time that Tywin's decisions in battlefield and tactics have been recalled. Either way, the question would be, should Dany do as Tywin did?

The hard true is that Tywin's way wins battles. Compassion and naiveté, don't. Jaime had to threaten a man with sending his child to him with a trebuchet and play the Rains to have peace. Dany, even if she had done the same, won't be able to cause the same effect. Because they know she won't do and they are right.

Why Rhaegar lost the war? Why Arthur Dayne was killed? Why Griff was exiled? They didn't have the "Tywin's factor", they played with honour because they were knights of summer who lived in a world of tourneys and chivalry, all of them. And Jorah got it right: Rhaegar fought with honour and Rhaegar lost. And Dany, who despite her sufferings and experiences is still a girl of summer, is losing.

C) Tyrion’s own personal thoughts on this slave’s claims. It’s easy to become accustomed to something. The slave to Ghazdor loves his collar; he wouldn’t take it off for anything. But does he really recognize that he’s a slave? Not really.

[snip]

I think this not only apply to slavery, but talks a lot about what people call a "comfort zone". I don't think it's wrong to stay there, but sometimes, is dangerous. For instance, ever watched 2 Broke Girls? To make it brief, they want to open a cupcake shop, an almost impossible dream. At the end of season 2, they do manage to open it but business got bad and they have to close it. They got temporary jobs and one of them gets too much used to the fact that they got a permanent monthly salary, full work benefits and stability, and forgets about their "dream". I went through something similar few years ago about a work. I resigned as I didn't want to get used to something that it wasn't my dream, even though that meant not to have a permanent job and salary and stability.

I think this is something many people can identify with, to realise they're too comfortable in a situation without noticing that they could do much better. This whole arc of Dany is very human, because slavery is something that shouldn't be taken completely literal. People sometimes get used to things that hurt them, either is a relationship, an addiction or a way of life, even though that doesn't actually get them physically or emotionally hurt. In Dany's case, she's also getting used to her own situation. She has the peace she wants and Meereen needs, but it's really that what she wants for herself? We see that she's definitely fed up at the end after realising she has become a slaver as well while being slaved herself. Who hasn't feel like that at least one in their life?

The Humble Bear

Oh, the bear, the bear...

btw, you know that "oso", bear in spanish, rhymes with "hermoso" (beautiful) and horroroso (very ugly). They used that in the Spanish version of the Bear and the Maiden Fair :P

Anyway, I think that Jorah, while not a pov himself, is worthy to analyse as well here, not so much as an extension of Dany nor as a character that belongs to her entourage, but as someone who has been affected by her, and whose future actions could cause an impact on her before she gets to Westeros (or if he actually gets there with her, which I hope). So, a lot of your Bear in the rest of the post, because you love him. And a few of my griff, because I love him :3

You all have been warned that this is a beargrifffeast.

Despite having very few lines in this chapter, there is quite a bit going on with Ser Jorah Mormont. The passage is rather long, so I’m only going to quote some selections of how Jorah has “adapted” to slavery.

Being a "shell" kinda fits with Jaime's thoughts about "going inside". I suppose that you don't need to be part of a Mad King's KG to learn how to go inside. Knights see terrible things. After all, is Jorah who tells Dany what happened during the sack of KL and why she should get the Unsullied.

Jorah has always been a very proud man. Even when he finds Tyrion post-banishment, he is wearing his lordly and knightly clothing and throughout the journey to Meereen, Jorah has acted above it all, as if he has not committed any crimes.

[snip]

A) This is another reflection of the master/slave dialectic. Previously, Jorah considered himself to be in the “master” position and the title he demanded he be called shows that. He wanted the sellswords to respect his superior position over them.

[snip]

This is the start of Jorah moving toward center, to a better version of himself. Dany and Jorah have been on parallel journeys this book, both loosing themselves in hopelessness, but both now have to become the person they were always meant to be. And I don’t think—even for a moment—that it’s a coincidence that it’s Dany Jorah “comes back” for and it’s Jorah who gives Dany what she needs most in the Sea.

A more fitting parallel here would be with another exiled Lord. Jorah is (or was) to Dany what Griff is now to Aegon and was to Rhaegar, although in their case, we have Jon's PoV while we don't have Aegon's.

Lords, even in exile, are proud and stubbornly in denial. Or some of them at least. And some learn, and some others, won't. Let's took Griff first: Griff did nothing wrong if we see his actions under a moral point of view. He refused to burn a whole town and I think we all agree that was the right thing to do. But if we look it from the "Tywin's way" point of view, he completely failed and as Toyne later pointed out to him, his actions were too much "chivalrous". He also admits himself that all he did was to gain Rhaegar's love, and his lack of pragmatism lead to Rhaegar's death. It's very tragic but at the end, we understand that young Jon didn't want to see himself as a butcher and murderer of children and we can sympathise and feel now horrified at him wanting to be more like Tywin and kill children if he must. Jorah, otoh, DID wrong but he won't accept it. It's all Ned Stark's fault. It's all his wife's fault. It's some other's fault. He HAD to do what he did. No wonder Dany empathises so easily with him, he's also a victim of the viciousness of Ned Stark, the Usurper's Dog, according to himself. The true is he sold slaves to keep his vain wife pleased but he sees himself as romantic and chivalrous. And that's the main difference between the Bear and the Griff: Jon had someone telling him he did wrong on being so good and innocent, while Jorah in not only deluded but also had Dany's sympathy which in a way, has been encouraging and supporting his mistaken notion of him being unfairly treated.

Jorah's arrogance also reflects on how he's received by Plumm and the Second Sons. He wanted people to recognise him as a Ser and probably, a Lord. Jon, who is remembered by Barristan as arrogant, was warmly welcomed by the Golden Company despite the rumours of him being a thief. Why? I suppose that, although he's a cynical and judgemental whiny bitch (I love him, but yeah, he is), Jon didn't enter the GC saying "call me a Lord" and kept his prejudgements to himself. He entered humble and escalated very high and quickly. Jorah entered arrogant and his permanence there was nothing to be remembered. Also, Jorah's behaviour was not only like that during his time with the SS. He acts the same when he makes his move on Dany. Funny, Jon doesn't say "I should stay away from Rhaegar because we are both men", which in fact sounds very logical. That's not his main worry: he's expecting to be noticed after he proves his worth in battlefield and gain Rhaegar's love because he knows his place, so to speak. He knows he needs to make an impression first. I suppose that, in an alternate universe, a match between him and some minor princess wouldn't be that far-fetched. He's an important Lord known to the court, friend of a Prince and capable enough in battle to be considered to be Hand of the King. That's quite a catch. Jorah, otoh, is a minor Lord from a small island that isn't precisely rich or anything special. And yet, he walks into Dany, a Princess, pretty much telling him "you have to love me because I love you!!". He made her feel so uncomfortable that I suppose that's one of the reasons for her to exile him: he didn't know his place.

I suppose that Jorah will return to Westeros with Dany and probably, see Bear Island once more, like Griff did. He's going to be the one with her when Barristan dies (I think he will, sadly). And I doubt Tyrion will go with them

as, according to GRRM's latest interview, they will cross paths but not so much than that

. So far, he has given Dany good advice, and he could be a good hand if she needs one. But again, GRRM is mean and I could be wrong and he actually dies. Not sure.

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Jon Con, in ASOS, the Meereenese did poison the wells, and they devastated the countryside around Meereen.

I suppose Dany's refusal to do so is connected to her desire to restore agriculture around the city. It results in the happy (but unforeseen) chance that the Slavers are camped in a plague-spot.

Parwan, plenty of medieval battles were idiot-balls. If Martin were to write a battle along the lines of Crecy (the French slaughtering their own crossbowmen), Poitiers (one third of the French army marching away for no reason) Bannockburn (cavalry charging head-on at armoured pikemen through a

bog) he'd get laughed at. The Slavers camping in a plague-spot isn't so incredible.

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We haven't yet gotten to the pit chapter, right?

Heh :D

This is the second time Tyrion has recalled Tywin in comparison, and also the second time that Tywin's decisions in battlefield and tactics have been recalled. Either way, the question would be, should Dany do as Tywin did?

The hard true is that Tywin's way wins battles. Compassion and naiveté, don't. Jaime had to threaten a man with sending his child to him with a trebuchet and play the Rains to have peace. Dany, even if she had done the same, won't be able to cause the same effect. Because they know she won't do and they are right.

Why Rhaegar lost the war? Why Arthur Dayne was killed? Why Griff was exiled? They didn't have the "Tywin's factor", they played with honour because they were knights of summer who lived in a world of tourneys and chivalry, all of them. And Jorah got it right: Rhaegar fought with honour and Rhaegar lost. And Dany, who despite her sufferings and experiences is still a girl of summer, is losing.

One of Dany's biggest issues is that she draws a distinction between fighting and honor/valor. Jorah's quote, which she recalls in a previous chapter, is yes that Rhaegar fought honorably but the big lesson she needs to learn is that he fought. Her brother did actually go into battle and slay men.

Anyway, I think that Jorah, while not a pov himself, is worthy to analyse as well here, not so much as an extension of Dany nor as a character that belongs to her entourage, but as someone who has been affected by her, and whose future actions could cause an impact on her before she gets to Westeros (or if he actually gets there with her, which I hope). So, a lot of your Bear in the rest of the post, because you love him. And a few of my griff, because I love him :3

You all have been warned that this is a beargrifffeast.

Yeah, I recognize that I have a tendency to analyze my Bear heavily but I really think that unlike other people in ASOIAF, his story is really wrapped up in one person: Dany. Tyrion's story goes back to the other Lannisters and KL and Sansa, ect. Jorah isn't going to turn out to be AAR or TPTWP or anything. His story is much more of an emotional one and connected to one person. He's a bit like Theon and Jaime, who are both on redemption arcs themselves (actually there are quite a few similarities between the three that I've been thinking a lot about), but we don't get Jorah as a POV so we have to dig deeper when it comes to him. So, my over analysis stems from my own love of him, but also because I think he's a fascinating character who is doing the same things as other character but without the benefit of a POV.

(ok, be honest, BQ...a small amount of my over analysis also have to do with my own personal shipping inclinations with D and J)

Being a "shell" kinda fits with Jaime's thoughts about "going inside". I suppose that you don't need to be part of a Mad King's KG to learn how to go inside. Knights see terrible things. After all, is Jorah who tells Dany what happened during the sack of KL and why she should get the Unsullied.

Yeah like I said above I see a lot of similarities between Jorah, Jaime, and Theon in their own arcs. The things we do for love, going inside yourself, either metaphorically or literally loosing a fundamental piece of yourself that changes who you are (a hand, a castle, a girl), knowing your name--Theon begins to think of himself almost solely as Reek, Jorah will let others call him a fool or anything else they want because his own name, Ser Jorah, has been "lost" to him...

The true is he sold slaves to keep his vain wife pleased but he sees himself as romantic and chivalrous. And that's the main difference between the Bear and the Griff: Jon had someone telling him he did wrong on being so good and innocent, while Jorah in not only deluded but also had Dany's sympathy which in a way, has been encouraging and supporting his mistaken notion of him being unfairly treated.

I both agree and disagree. There is no denying Jorah's pride but a lot of people seem to think that he doesn't regret his actions or hasn't found fault in them. But in ACOK Dany I, Jorah does tell her that to keep his wife he's done things that shame him to talk about. He does know that some of actions were wrong, but he's not going to apologize for them. It's the same with the banishment scene: Jorah comes before Dany, head bowed and Dany recognizes that Jorah knows his own guilt, but it's that Jorah refuses to apologize for his actions that gets him in trouble.

That's quite a catch. Jorah, otoh, is a minor Lord from a small island that isn't precisely rich or anything special. And yet, he walks into Dany, a Princess, pretty much telling him "you have to love me because I love you!!". He made her feel so uncomfortable that I suppose that's one of the reasons for her to exile him: he didn't know his place.

I agree that Jorah has crossed boundaries. I will never not yell at him for kissing Dany by surprise. But I think it's important to remember that Dany, all along, has made him feel special. She constantly calls him "my one friend" or "my most trusted adviser" or "my good knight." She's reinforcing his own ego and thoughts on himself with her own actions and words. Until ASOS, Dany never rebuked him for things he said or did (including the kiss--she was much more surprised than angry, and as we learn in her next chapter post-kiss, very sexually aroused to the point of reminding herself that she doesn't want Jorah). Even though she's known that Jorah loves her as a man loves a woman (as well as a knight loves his queen) she never took steps to mitigate that. She's appeared naked in front of him twice, once in Vaes Torllo and once on the ship. She holds his hands and touches his face, she gives him little kisses. When she does meet Daario and finds him attractive, her thoughts go to how Jorah would react. Every time she thinks that Jorah is not "particularly handsome" she also thinks about how strong and fit he is. When she recalls him in ADWD several times she doesn't remember just the betrayal but how he loved her and kissed her. (more on that in the final POV of ADWD) Now, does that give Jorah the right to make a move? Good heavens no. But there was a lot going on between Dany and Jorah that didn't help the situation.

As for knowing his place: I think he does now or at least he's getting there. He comes before the Second Sons and BBP pretty much 100% naked. He'll dress in bits and pieces of lesser quality armor for battle (I'll talk about that more when we get to that chapter). Not to mention the branding and the beatings.

Someday, I may have to sit down and actually write out what I think is happening with these two in each chapter from GOT-ADWD...

I suppose that Jorah will return to Westeros with Dany and probably, see Bear Island once more, like Griff did. He's going to be the one with her when Barristan dies (I think he will, sadly)

I think there has been too much foreshadowing of Jorah making it home for him to die in Meereen. His father's final words, Dany's promises in GOT, and his own personal redemption arc. I do think he might be injured in Meereen but Dany just so happens to have a Maester and a Red Priest coming toward her doorstep...

Okay, I'll get off my Jorah train for awhile (heh, sorry, all). :leaving:

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I know people are probably still reading Suzanna's chapter, but this is due today, so I'll post for whenever people get the chance!

A Dance With Dragons

Tyrion XI

[snip snippity snip snip]

Thanks for the amazing analysis, BearQueen. :cheers: :thumbsup: I have nothing to add. Honestly, I have nothing to add because this is superb. Now I wish Paper Waver would read it.

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Thanks for the amazing analysis, BearQueen. :cheers: :thumbsup: I have nothing to add. Honestly, I have nothing to add because this is superb. Now I wish Paper Waver would read it.

:grouphug: Thanks Kyoshi.

PS: your new siggy made me smile.

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[...]Yeah, I recognize that I have a tendency to analyze my Bear heavily but I really think that unlike other people in ASOIAF, his story is really wrapped up in one person: Dany. Tyrion's story goes back to the other Lannisters and KL and Sansa, ect. Jorah isn't going to turn out to be AAR or TPTWP or anything. His story is much more of an emotional one and connected to one person. He's a bit like Theon and Jaime, who are both on redemption arcs themselves (actually there are quite a few similarities between the three that I've been thinking a lot about), but we don't get Jorah as a POV so we have to dig deeper when it comes to him. So, my over analysis stems from my own love of him, but also because I think he's a fascinating character who is doing the same things as other character but without the benefit of a POV.

(ok, be honest, BQ...a small amount of my over analysis also have to do with my own personal shipping inclinations with D and J)[...]

I'm not opposed to analysing Jorah on an extensive level, especially when he is viewed from the perspective of someone who is not Daenerys. I think it helps in disproving that theory I've seen on the board several times about Dany being a biased POV character.

You're right in saying that perhaps more than anyone else in the series, Jorah is the one character whose arc is centred around one person, one concept, one goal. It doesn't help that he doesn't have a POV. I think if he did it would be redundant since what Dany sees is what is there; it is confirmed by what Tyrion sees IMHO. Analysing Jorah has given me a lot of insight into what Dany is like and how the people around her see her. After all, she doesn't exist in a bubble. As she goes through her arc she is touching a lot of people and they touch her back. Seeing how she changes those she touches and how those who touch her change her is something worth looking into. That's why I'm always interested in Grey Worm, Missandei, Irri, random freed slave walking down the road, etc. I'll stop my rambling.

:grouphug: Thanks Kyoshi.

PS: your new siggy made me smile.

:blushing: It seemed necessary. Glad it made someone smile.

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I'm not opposed to analysing Jorah on an extensive level, especially when he is viewed from the perspective of someone who is not Daenerys. I think it helps in disproving that theory I've seen on the board several times about Dany being a biased POV character.

You're right in saying that perhaps more than anyone else in the series, Jorah is the one character whose arc is centred around one person, one concept, one goal. It doesn't help that he doesn't have a POV. I think if he did it would be redundant since what Dany sees is what is there; it is confirmed by what Tyrion sees IMHO. Analysing Jorah has given me a lot of insight into what Dany is like and how the people around her see her. After all, she doesn't exist in a bubble. As she goes through her arc she is touching a lot of people and they touch her back. Seeing how she changes those she touches and how those who touch her change her is something worth looking into. That's why I'm always interested in Grey Worm, Missandei, Irri, random freed slave walking down the road, etc. I'll stop my rambling.

Right and think about this. Jorah is an unbelievably prideful man and Dany has banished him, rejected him, yelled at him, and threatened to kill him. And what does Jorah do when given the opportunity? He comes back! "I came back. Call me a fool." The idiot could have gone home!

These people who are in universe and know Dany don't see her as a mad queen, or a bitch, or a worthless individual, or a wanton strumpet or even a bad ruler. They trust her and believe in her. They see her as mother, queen, woman, and a freaking good person! Barry recognizes that Dany is still young and has a way to go, but he doesn't regret being by her side or defending the city against her foes. It's what he was made for and he's gladly doing it for Dany.

(this post has been brought to you by someone who just really love Daenerys Targaryen)

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Right and think about this. Jorah is an unbelievably prideful man and Dany has banished him, rejected him, yelled at him, and threatened to kill him. And what does Jorah do when given the opportunity? He comes back! "I came back. Call me a fool." The idiot could have gone home!

These people who are in universe and know Dany don't see her as a mad queen, or a bitch, or a worthless individual, or a wanton strumpet or even a bad ruler. They trust her and believe in her. They see her as mother, queen, woman, and a freaking good person! Barry recognizes that Dany is still young and has a way to go, but he doesn't regret being by her side or defending the city against her foes. It's what he was made for and he's gladly doing it for Dany.

(this post has been brought to you by someone who just really love Daenerys Targaryen)

This right here. He came back! And all her other people have stayed with her!

I just thought of something that was missed in the last Dany chapter. I think it's very important when regarding her next two chapters. I apologise for the late post but I just remembered it. (I also apologise if it turns out to be nothing).

When Dany takes Quentyn to see her dragons:

“Bring him to me. It is time he met my children.”[… … …] “The dragon has three heads,” Dany said when they were on the final flight. “My marriage need not be the end of all your hopes. I know why you are here.”

“For you,” said Quentyn, all awkward gallantry. “No,” said Dany. “For fire and blood.” One of the elephants trumpeted at them from his stall. An answering roar from below made her flush with sudden heat. Prince Quentyn looked up in alarm. “The dragons know when she is near,” Ser Barristan told him.

Every child knows its mother, Dany thought. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves “They call to me. Come.” [… … …]

When he flapped his wings, a cloud of grey ash filled the air. Broken chains clanked and clattered about his legs. Quentyn Martell jumped back a foot. A crueler woman might have laughed at him, but Dany squeezed his hand and said, “They frighten me as well. There is no shame in that. My children have grown wild and angry in the dark.”

“You … you mean to ride them?”

“One of them. All I know of dragons is what my brother told me when I was a girl, and some I read in books, but it is said that even Aegon the Conqueror never dared mount Vhagar or Meraxes, nor did his sisters ride Balerion the Black Dread. Dragons live longer than men, some for hundreds of years, so Balerion had other riders after Aegon died … but no rider ever flew two dragons.” [… … …] Dany gave her wild children one last lingering look. She could hear the dragons screaming as she led the boy back to the door, and see the play of light against the bricks, reflections of their fires. If I look back, I am lost.

She clearly tells Quentyn that one rider can only ride one dragon. I think this is important because in the next chapter Dany rides Drogon. In the last chapter she leaves Drogon...knowing full well what it means: she can't ride the other two. It's Drogon who follows her (again, she rode him and then left...meaning she's lost him). I won't go too deep into the analysis since it will touch too much on the next chapters but I just wanted to point it out. This scene has always stood out for me because

wait for the relevant chapter to find out

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A couple of things that I have wanted to bring up for some time:



Dany's clouded power of observation/ indecisiveness - IMHO one can't overestimate the effect of Selmy's revelations about Aerys, limited and censored as they were, on Dany's decline. Dany never had education or training that would have prepared her to rule and given her a routine to fall back on, all she had was her eclectic life experience, her innate talents, intuition and will. Dany came as far as she did because she trusted her decisions, even when they went against everything that her entourage advised her. Which she mostly did, in part or in whole.


But her trust in herself was very much rooted in the legend of her family - Dany was confident that she could be great because _they_ were great, and she was their descendant. And once Aerys's madness was revealed, she could no longer trust herself, which almost led to her downfall. Would she have struggled so with her fear of being/becoming a monster if she didn't know about Aerys, even if Drogon had still eaten Hazzea (if he had, that is)? Not IMHO.


So, the oft-repeated insistence about Dany needing to learn "the truth" about her family ASAP is very much a double-edged sword. I mean, she needs to learn to deal with before coming to Westeros, certainly, but immediately after taking Meeren and just starting to make a first attempt to rule in a very complex situation was an extremely unfortunate timing for it, as Dany needed all the confidence she could get to make any kind headway there. Instead, she was paralysed by self-doubt and was an easy prey for depression when the difficulties started to mount.


I still feel that Dany's observational and analytical abilities just mostly evaporating as they did, and then starting to come back in this last chapter wasn't the best way that GRRM could have approached this, but them's the break. I still would have preferred a more gradual learning experience, with more analytical reflection on Dany's part.


I also can't help but wonder how the city was being governed when Dany wasn't feeling up to holding audiences. For that matter, who oversaw and enforced her decrees when she was? It just feels completely unbelievable to me that not even a skeleton administration has been created in Meeren, but things remained as comparatively orderly as they did. Yes, Harpy murders notwithstanding.



Re: Jorah - I like him, he is an interesting character, but IMHO his abilities are somewhat overstated. Notably, he has been consistently better at criticizing other people/plans, than at offering any particularly good ideas himself. There is a tendency to ascribe most of Dany's successes to his "practical council", but it is not actually true. Dany had been rejecting or only adapting parts of his suggestions the whole time they were together. All the planning for her greatest successes had been her own, not Jorah's or anybody else's, even though she incorporated bits and pieces of advice she was given.



That is not to say that Jorah's abilities as a critic or a warrior are worthless, just that he is poor material for a Hand and needs to learn to deal with his jealousy re: other male advisers that Dany is bound to have. He _has_ been humbled by his experiences as a slave, but will this extend to being able to "share" Dany with others?


And what would happen if Dany still doesn't return his feelings and falls in love with somebody else right in front of him? Would Jorah be able to deal now and still remain loyal to Dany, would he try to kill her love interest, or would he become another Criston Cole? Jorah hasn't been one of Dany's 3 betrayals yet, IMHO, but he could still become "betrayal for love".



I also don't think that Dany having been naked in front of Jorah is significant - Dany became accustomed to Dothraki culture, where it was no big deal.



Re: medieval biological warfare, the whole inserting themselves into a cess-pit fits, IMHO. People in besieged cities often became sick, and I seem to remember some besieging armies catapulting in corpses of dead/sick animals or trying to poison their water supplies to make them sicker - just to eventually sack them and get full exposure themselves, heh.



I also wouldn't hold Tyrion's ruminations on slavery and how it is not that diffferent from being a servant as a sign that servants are treated particularly badly at Casterly Rock. He was trying to rationalize his situation in order to make it more bearable, to be able to hold on for long enough to make his move.


It is also significant, that apparently there are re-captured Astapori among the slaves and they - and the remaining/new Yunkish slaves, want to be free. Even after seeing/hearing the horror of Astapor.



And Penny actually ruminates about all the things that they could be doing if they were free, too. I don't think that she is quite as glad to be a slave as Tyrion thinks, she is just terrified of the world, given her recent experiences. Yes, she does need somebody to follow, but does it necessarily make her a natural slave? Not IMHO.

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Re: Jorah - I like him, he is an interesting character, but IMHO his abilities are somewhat overstated. Notably, he has been consistently better at criticizing other people/plans, than at offering any particularly good ideas himself. There is a tendency to ascribe most of Dany's successes to his "practical council", but it is not actually true. Dany had been rejecting or only adapting parts of his suggestions the whole time they were together. All the planning for her greatest successes had been her own, not Jorah's or anybody else's, even though she incorporated bits and pieces of advice she was given.

I said this elsewhere, but I don't think Jorah should ever be Dany's Hand. Trusted adviser, yes. But he's not as politically adept as say Tyrion when it comes to Westerosi Policies. But he does have good ideas, like going before the Masters not speaking Valyrian and dressing the Dothraki fashion to trick them. Also, the Unsullied were his idea in the first place to help mitigate the horrors of a sack in KL.

And what would happen if Dany still doesn't return his feelings and falls in love with somebody else right in front of him? Would Jorah be able to deal now and still remain loyal to Dany, would he try to kill her love interest, or would he become another Criston Cole? Jorah hasn't been one of Dany's 3 betrayals yet, IMHO, but he could still become "betrayal for love".

You'll notice that when Jorah goes to the Whore in Volantis he doesn't say,"to make her love me." It's "to die for her if need be." I think he'll always be uncomfortable with the idea of her loving someone else, should that happen, because he's deeply in love with her. But he also knows that it got him sent away before and he's not going to let THAT happen again. So if he has to stand by and watch her with another guy, he'll grind his teeth, glare, and be his wonderful sullen self. But he'll still be there, that's the key point.

I also don't think that Dany having been naked in front of Jorah is significant - Dany became accustomed to Dothraki culture, where it was no big deal.

I both agree and disagree. Dany has become accustomed to the Dothraki ways (as has Jorah, dressing like a Dothraki on a few occasions, FWTW). However, when she's naked in front of him in Clash, there is a line that always stands out to me. Dany hears that Jorah has come to give her a report on the city and Dany is in her bath. She asks for her Lion Pelt and covers "everything that wanted covering."In other words, she's well aware of the fact that she's naked, that she's exposing everything but breasts and her sex (and she keeps fidgeting with the pelt too, just like she does aboard the ship) and that in some ways, she knows she shouldn't be this exposed. But takes no steps to correct it. Again, I'm not saying she's deliberately toying with Jorah, but it's the sort of intimacy that Dany does want and I think is fighting.

And Penny actually ruminates about all the things that they could be doing if they were free, too. I don't think that she is quite as glad to be a slave as Tyrion thinks, she is just terrified of the world, given her recent experiences. Yes, she does need somebody to follow, but does it necessarily make her a natural slave? Not IMHO.

I don't think anyone is a natural slave since slavery is such an unnatural practice. But Penny is different from both Tyrion who ends up fighting for his freedom, and Jorah who becomes a shell. Penny just accepts what is happening to her. She plays the part she thinks she is supposed to play--dwarf, slave, jouster.

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Parwan, plenty of medieval battles were idiot-balls. If Martin were to write a battle along the lines of Crecy (the French slaughtering their own crossbowmen), Poitiers (one third of the French army marching away for no reason) Bannockburn (cavalry charging head-on at armoured pikemen through a

bog) he'd get laughed at. The Slavers camping in a plague-spot isn't so incredible.

I don't deny that there are dumb moves everywhere--in mainstream fiction, in real world history, and in fantasy. They are still dumb moves, and some are worse than others. Extremely bad tactical actions, like slaughtering your own crossbowmen in a battle, don't rank as low as persisting in a siege strategy that continues to kill your people in a gruesome manner. The situation with Meereen and the pale mare is a perfect storm of stupidity. Everybody and everything is involved in it. Over a very long period of time, no one makes a rational move.

First off, we have the Yunkai'i as leaders. Those guys don't just make mistakes. They very rarely do anything of a military nature correctly. Yet, they are the leaders of the coalition. Nobody has much confidence in them, but no one moves to replace them. Then you have the sellswords who follow the rulers of the Yellow City. The Tattered Prince very clearly tells his men to stay away from the infected Astapori. It's very clear from the text that his men do not do this. Finally, we have the Meereenese. Here, I return to a number of points I have raised: 1. Dany follows a very poor negotiating strategy. 2. There are missed opportunities for attempting to get all of the residents of the city to work together. 3. The Harpy and his (her) followers are foolish to think that those attacking the city are their allies; it appears that many of them do think this, or at least act as if they have this belief.

Everyone in Meereen--Dany, Hizdahr, Daario, Hizdahr, the Unsullied, etc.--have an interest in staying alive and healthy. Barristan and the Blue Graces in particular have detailed knowledge of the horror that is approaching their city. In view of this, there is only one rational move to make in the negotiations. This message has to be delivered to the Yunkishmen and those helping them:

Stop. Now.

Do not drive those sick people one step further toward our city. Do you want this peace? Do you want this marriage? If you continue with your current actions, you will get neither of these things. The fact that no one even considers delivering such a demand is the final element in what I consider a perfect storm of stupidity. I don't deny that it might happen in many places, including the real world, but it would be highly unusual.

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