Heresy 131 Azor Ahai and the Prince that was Promised

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 131 the latest edition of the long-running thread that takes a sideways look at the Song of Ice and Fire.

Heresy covers a wide variety of topics, but is largely about questioning some of the popular assumptions that the Wall and the Nights Watch were created to keep the Others at bay - and that the story is going to end with Jon Snow being identified as both the lost Targaryen heir and as Azor Ahai.

As the story has progressed it’s instead become clear that nothing is as it seems and that there may even be some truth in the old joke that it will not be Dany’s amazing dragons who save Westeros from the Others, but the Others who will help save Westeros from the dragons!

Heresy is therefore about trying to figure out what’s really going on, by looking at clues in the text itself with an open mind, and in identifying GRRM’s own sources and inspirations, ranging from Celtic and Norse mythology such as the Cu Chulainn cycle, the Morrigan and the Mabinogion, all the way through to Narnia and the original Land of Always Winter, and perhaps ultimately to recognizing the Heart of Winter not as a place on a map but as Conrad’s Heart of Darkness, for in Westeros Winter and Darkness are one and the same.

Stepping into the world of Heresy might appear confusing, but we are engaged in an exercise in chaos theory. It’s about making connections, sometimes real sometimes thematic, between east and west, between the various beliefs and types of magick - and also about reconciling the dodgy timelines. While most threads in this forum concentrate on a particular issue, we therefore range pretty widely and more or less in free-fall, in an effort to try and reach an understanding of what may really be happening through the resulting collision of ideas. However, beyond the firm belief that things are not as they seem, there is no such thing as an accepted heretic view on Craster’s sons or any of the other topics, and the fiercest critics of some of the ideas discussed on these pages are our fellow heretics

A link to Heresy 100 follows, in which will be found essays on seven major topics in heresy, with a bonus essay on the Crows: http://asoiaf.wester...138-heresy-100/. Links are also provided at the end of each of the essays to the relevant discussion thread, and for those made of sterner stuff we also have a link to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy.

Those essays were a very successful project orchestrated by Mace Cooterian to celebrate the centennial edition, and by popular request we now intend to run a follow-up with five new topics for the five kings, starting below with a stonkingly detailed essay by Butcher Crow on Azor Ahai and the Prince that was Promised… a lot of meat for discussion

Although as I said above, we normally operate in free-fall, the purpose of these special edition threads is that we concentrate on the chosen topic in hand. If there is a new and startling revelation by GRRM which needs to be laid before us, fair enough, but otherwise stick to the point and normal service will resume in due course.

Don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed over the years. We’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask, but be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour.

[Black Crow]

AZOR AHAI Part the First

Greetings heretics, lurkers et al and welcome to the first installment of the War of Five Kings heresy essay project. I am John aka TheButcherCrow and today we will be taking a look at everybodies favourite saviour, Azor Ahai. We will also be considering the infamous Prince That Was Promised and how these two prophecised figures interact.

(from here on out I will use the acknowledged abbreviation of Azor Ahai, AA & I will use PP, or promised prince, for the Prince Who Was Promised, savici ?)

Azor Ahai and The Prince That Was Promised, what do we know ?

So to start off, I thought it logical if we were to simply take a look at in-book references to either AA or PP.

A GAME OF THRONES

Neither is mentioned in the first book, well not directly (more on that later).

A CLASH OF KINGS

Azor Ahai

Melisandre was robed all in scarlet satin and blood velvet, her eyes as red as the great ruby that glistened at her throat as if it too were afire. “In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.” She lifted her voice, so it carried out over the gathered host. “Azor Ahai, beloved of R’hllor! The Warrior of Light, the Son of Fire! Come forth, your sword awaits you! Come forth and take it into your hand!”

Davos I, A Clash of Kings

In the scene above we get our first mention of a prophecy, clearly from this we can see that AA is thought of by his followers as a saviour figure, a champion of Melisandre's Rh'llor deity and it has been foretold that he will return to save the world from an awful fate at a time. We also get our first mention of Lightbringer, AA's preferred weapon of choice for day-to-day demon slaying.

Later in that chapter we get a tale of AA and the forging of famous sword from, of all things, from an extremely unconvinced pirate:

“I have attended to it, good ser. Though His Grace frowns so whenever he does see me that I tremble to come before him. Do you think he would like me better if I wore a hair shirt and never smiled? Well, I will not do it. I am an honest man, he must suffer me in silk and samite. Or else I shall take my ships where I am better loved. That sword was not Lightbringer, my friend.”The sudden shift in subject left Davos uneasy. “Sword?”

“A sword plucked from fire, yes. Men tell me things, it is my pleasant smile. How shall a burnt sword serve Stannis?” “A burning sword,” corrected Davos. “Burnt,” said Salladhor Saan, “and be glad of that, my friend. Do you know the tale of the forging of Lightbringer?

I shall tell it to you. It was a time when darkness lay heavy on the world. To oppose it, the hero must have a hero’s blade, oh, like none that had ever been. And so for thirty days and thirty nights Azor Ahai labored sleepless in the temple, forging a blade in the sacred fires. Heat and hammer and fold, heat and hammer and fold, oh, yes, until the sword was done. Yet when he plunged it into water to temper the steel it burst asunder. “Being a hero, it was not for him to shrug and go in search of excellent grapes such as these, so again he began. The second time it took him fifty days and fifty nights, and this sword seemed even finer than the first. Azor Ahai captured a lion, to temper the blade by plunging it through the beast’s red heart, but once more the steel shattered and split. Great was his woe and great was his sorrow then, for he knew what he must do. “A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. ‘Nissa Nissa’ he said to her, for that was her name, ‘bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.’ She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.

Davos I, A Clash of Kings

So Salladhor is clearly not buying Mel's light show, he will not be the last. The tale is pure classic mythology, in order to save the world the hero must give up that which is most dear to them and so forth. In addition to that, it's a nice little folk tale that parents probably tell their children as a parable about not giving up when things get hard.

The Prince That Was Promised

Finally a great pair of bronze doors appeared to her left, grander than the rest. They swung open as she neared, and she had to stop and look. Beyond loomed a cavernous stone hall, the largest she had ever seen. The skulls of dead dragons looked down from its walls. Upon a towering barbed throne sat an old man in rich robes, an old man with dark eyes and long silver-grey hair. “Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat,” he said to a man below him. “Let him be the king of ashes.” Drogon shrieked, his claws digging through silk and skin, but the king on his throne never heard, and Dany moved on. Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?” “Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked. “He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

Daenerys IV, A Clash of Kings

So this takes place in the context of Dany's visit to the House of The Undying, which is several essays in and of itself, so we'll just consider the above as it is the first mention of PP. From what we know we can deduce that the man must be Rhaegar, the woman is Elia and the baby, little Aegon, certainly the mention of PP would back that up as Aemon will coroborate later. At least at first glance that's how it looks, some of the details don't add up. Rhaegar never sat the throne and it was Aerys that uttered the immortal line, "Let him be King over charred bones and cooked meat". So was it Aerys and Rhaella perhaps ? Again it doesn't quite fit because of the name of the baby. The truth is, for all we know that was Aerion and Valaena at the birth of Aegon I or, more interestingly, it may have been a portent of the future.

Later, Dany and Jorah discuss the visions:

Dany could not let it go. “His is the song of ice and fire, my brother said. I’m certain it was my brother. Not Viserys, Rhaegar. He had a harp with silver strings.”

Ser Jorah’s frown deepened until his eyebrows came together. “Prince Rhaegar played such a harp,” he conceded. “You saw him?”

She nodded. “There was a woman in a bed with a babe at her breast. My brother said the babe was the prince that was promised and told her to name him Aegon.”

“Prince Aegon was Rhaegar’s heir by Elia of Dorne,” Ser Jorah said. “But if he was this prince that was promised, the promise was broken along with his skull when the Lannisters dashed his head against a wall.”

“I remember,” Dany said sadly. “They murdered Rhaegar’s daughter as well, the little princess. Rhaenys, she was named, like Aegon’s sister. There was no Visenya, but he said the dragon has three heads. What is the song of ice and fire?”

“It’s no song I’ve ever heard.”

Daenerys V, A Clash of Kings

So in order to lead the reader toward the conclusion that the man in the vision was Rhaegar GRRM has Dany and Jorah pretty much decide that it was him.

We are beginning to get a picture of the nature of prophecy, how the terms of these prophecies can be so vague they could apply to almost anyone. which is of course the point. another example of GRRM's conceit about the nature of power.

[Black Crow]

AZOR AHAI Part the Second

A STORM OF SWORDS

Azor Ahai

"The old maester looked at Stannis and saw only a man. You see a king. You are both wrong. He is the Lord’s chosen, the warrior of fire. I have seen him leading the fight against the dark, I have seen it in the flames. The flames do not lie, else you would not be here. It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. The bleeding star has come and gone, and Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai reborn!”

Davos III, A Storm of Swords

In this scene we have Mel effectively justify her belief that Stannis is AA come again

If Melisandre knew of this letter… What was it she had said? One whose name may not be spoken is marshaling his power, Davos Seaworth. Soon comes the cold, and the night that never ends… And Stannis had seen a vision in the flames, a ring of torches in the snow with terror all around.

“My lord, are you unwell?” asked Pylos.

I am frightened, Maester, he might have said. Davos was remembering a tale Salladhor Saan had told him, of how Azor Ahai tempered Lightbringer by thrusting it through the heart of the wife he loved. He slew his wife to fight the dark. If Stannis is Azor Ahai come again, does that mean Edric Storm must play the part of Nissa Nissa? “I was thinking, Maester. My pardons.” What harm if some wildling king conquers the north? It was not as though Stannis held the north. His Grace could scarcely be expected to defend people who refused to acknowledge him as king. “Give me another letter,” he said abruptly. “This one is too…”

“…difficult?” suggested Pylos.

Soon comes the cold, whispered Melisandre, and the night that never ends“Troubling,” said Davos. “Too… troubling. A different letter, please.”

Davos V, A Storm of Swords

Here we have the hints dropped about AA's destiny being entwined with the goings on at the Wall all but confirmed and Davos reflects on the cost of being a hero.

Melisandre said, “Azor Ahai tempered Lightbringer with the heart’s blood of his own beloved wife. If a man with a thousand cows gives one to god, that is nothing. But a man who offers the only cow he owns…”

“She talks of cows,” Davos told the king. “I am speaking of a boy, your daughter’s friend, your brother’s son.”

“A king’s son, with the power of kingsblood in his veins.” Melisandre’s ruby glowed like a red star at her throat. “Do you think you’ve saved this boy, Onion Knight? When the long night falls, Edric Storm shall die with the rest, wherever he is hidden. Your own sons as well. Darkness and cold will cover the earth. You meddle in matters you do not understand.”

“There’s much I don’t understand,” Davos admitted. “I have never pretended elsewise. I know the seas and rivers, the shapes of the coasts, where the rocks and shoals lie. I know hidden coves where a boat can land unseen. And I know that a king protects his people, or he is no king at all.”

Stannis’s face darkened. “Do you mock me to my face? Must I learn a king’s duty from an onion smuggler?”

Davos knelt. “If I have offended, take my head. I’ll die as I lived, your loyal man. But hear me first. Hear me for the sake of the onions I brought you, and the fingers you took.”

Stannis slid Lightbringer from its scabbard. Its glow filled the chamber. “Say what you will, but say it quickly.” The muscles in the king’s neck stood out like cords.

Davos fumbled inside his cloak and drew out the crinkled sheet of parchment. It seemed a thin and flimsy thing, yet it was all the shield he had. “A King’s Hand should be able to read and write. Maester Pylos has been teaching me.” He smoothed the letter flat upon his knee and began to read by the light of the magic sword.

Davos VI, A Storm of Swords

Again we have more discussion on the contextual nature of morality. Is it just to sacrifice young Edric to save the world ? Interestingly, I highlighted a phrase Mel uses, "the long night", a universal phrase it seems.

The Prince That Was Promised

“It means that the battle is begun,” said Melisandre. “The sand is running through the glass more quickly now, and man’s hour on earth is almost done. We must act boldly, or all hope is lost. Westeros must unite beneath her one true king, the prince that was promised, Lord of Dragonstone and chosen of R’hllor.”

Davos IV, A Storm of Swords

This is the first time Mel calls Stannis PP. It would seem AA and PP are almost certainly the same person. One ancient prophecy out of Asshai, one more recent and possibly Valyrian.

“It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?”

“He stands before you,” Melisandre declared, “though you do not have the eyes to see. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai come again, the warrior of fire. In him the prophecies are fulfilled. The red comet blazed across the sky to herald his coming, and he bears Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes."

Samwell V, A Storm of Swords

At last someone with some knowledge challenges Mel, Maester Aemon. He seems to believe that the war for the dawn will feature PP and Mel confirms the link between PP & AA.

A Feast For Crows

Azor Ahai is not mentioned in Feast, PP on the other hand... See below

[Black Crow]

AZOR AHAI Part the Third

A DANCE WITH DRAGONS

Azor Ahai

“I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife’s blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.”

Jon III, A Dance With Dragons

AA fights a monster of indeterminate origin and Salladhor San's earlier skepticism about Stannis' "Lightbringer" seems justified.

“Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned … and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end … death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn

Tyrion VI, A Dance With Dragons

My favourite so far. This is the first time Dany gets thrown into the mix as a candidate (officially) for AAR and, as we will see later, Aemon links her to PP and creates a bunch of confusion in the process. The priest tells us "all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn". this is new and troubling information. Without an end, there can be no peace.

The red priestess closed her eyes and said a prayer, then opened them once more to face the hearthfire. One more time. She had to be certain. Many a priest and priestess before her had been brought down by false visions, by seeing what they wished to see instead of what the Lord of Light had sent. Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R’hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him. Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument.

Visions danced before her, gold and scarlet, flickering, forming and melting and dissolving into one another, shapes strange and terrifying and seductive. She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood. Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

The girl. I must find the girl again, the grey girl on the dying horse. Jon Snow would expect that of her, and soon. It would not be enough to say the girl was fleeing. He would want more, he would want the when and where, and she did not have that for him. She had seen the girl only once. A girl as grey as ash, and even as I watched she crumbled and blew away.

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf’s face threw back his head and howled.

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover’s hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. “Melony,” she heard a woman cry. A man’s voice called, “Lot Seven.” She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in.

Melisandre I, A Dance With Dragons

Just a passing mention of AA here but this is such a great scene. We get to see behind Mel's armour a little and many of our suspicions are confirmed. She wants Stannis to be AA so badly, her belief is so strong but we now know she misreads the flames.

So back to the question I asked at the top of this section, what do we know. We know that a prophecy was recorded in Asshai that foretold the return of an ancient hero, Azor Ahai. We know that certain signs or portents would apparently signal AA's return and that quite a few people seem to fit the requirements. We know that AA had a magic sword and that the sword gave off heat. Finally, we know that PP & AAR are the same figure and that the Targs believe he will be a Targ.

Rhaego, The Stallion Who Will Mount the World

I said I'd come back to AGOT, here we go:

Finally the crone opened her eye and lifted her arms. “I have seen his face, and heard the thunder of his hooves,” she proclaimed in a thin, wavery voice.

“The thunder of his hooves!” the others chorused.

“As swift as the wind he rides, and behind him his khalasar covers the earth, men without number, with arakhs shining in their hands like blades of razor grass. Fierce as a storm this prince will be. His enemies will tremble before him, and their wives will weep tears of blood and rend their flesh in grief. The bells in his hair will sing his coming, and the milk men in the stone tents will fear his name.” The old woman trembled and looked at Dany almost as if she were afraid. “The prince is riding, and he shall be the stallion who mounts the world.”

“The stallion who mounts the world!” the onlookers cried in echo, until the night rang to the sound of their voices.

The one-eyed crone peered at Dany. “What shall he be called, the stallion who mounts the world?”

She stood to answer. “He shall be called Rhaego,” she said, using the words that Jhiqui had taught her. Her hands touched the swell beneath her breasts protectively as a roar went up from the Dothraki. “Rhaego,” they screamed. “Rhaego, Rhaego, Rhaego!”

Daenerys V, A Game of Thrones

I'm just going to flat out say it, we're all thinking it, this is the same PP/AAR prophecy told from a different cultural viewpoint. "But Rhaego is dead?" You cry. Ah yes, prophecy is a fickle thing indeed. For what is the will of a god to the freewill of humanity ?

Prince or Princess ? aka Lost in Translation

Bet you thought I'd forgotten this bit, oh no. This gets it's own section:

“What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.” Just talking of her seemed to make him stronger. “I must go to her. I must. Would that I was even ten years younger.”

Samwell IV, A Feast for Crows

So Aemon indicates that the for a thousand years the Targs have been mistakenly waiting for a Prince when in fact, PP is Dany. What has happened is pretty simple but also quite intriguing. The word in (we assume) Valyrian was incorrectly translated into the common tongue as "Prince" when in fact it can mean either Prince or Princess. Aemon cites dragons as a rationale for this saying they are "now one, and now the other". this had l;ed some to believe that the original word was in fact "dragon". This cannot be. the word "dragon" exists in the common tongue, if the Valyrian word was "dragon" it would be translated as "dragon" not "prince". So why does Aemon cite dragons ? The sphinxes are the riddle not the riddler. The Valyrian sphinxes represent man, woman and dragon as one. My guess is that the Valyrian dragonlords thought of themselves as much dragon as human. Therefore the word simply meant "child of the dragonlord/leader/king" and had no direct translation in the common tongue. Somebody hit on "Prince" and the rest, as they say, is history.

Any Portent in an Apocalypse or The Problem with Prophecy

On Braavos, it had seemed possible that Aemon might recover. Xhondo’s talk of dragons had almost seemed to restore the old man to himself. That night he ate every bite Sam put before him. “No one ever looked for a girl,” he said. “It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought... the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King’s Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet

Samwell IV, A Feast for Crows

So here we have another mention of Aegon as PP and also it's revealed that both Aemon & Rhaegar thought it was Rhaegar who fulfilled the prophecy. This leads me to wonder how many other Targs were of this belief ? It's also a nice illustration of how the "signs" can be read as the reader wishes to read them.

“Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy.” Marwyn turned his head and spat a gob of red phlegm onto the floor. “Not that I would trust it. Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is... and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time.” He chewed a bit. “Still...”

Marwyn cuts right to the chase. As we saw in the Mel POV and as we will see in a moment, prophecy is as much belief as it is "written in stone". The sellsword kills who he wants to kill based on his beliefs, perhaps he heard a prophecy once...

“No,” the old man said. “It must be you. Tell them. The prophecy... my brother’s dream... Lady Melisandre has misread the signs. Stannis...Stannis has some of the dragon blood in him, yes. His brothers did as well. Rhaelle, Egg’s little girl, she was how they came by it... their father’s mother... she used to call me Uncle Maester when she was a little girl. I remembered that, so I allowed myself to hope... perhaps I wanted to... we all deceive ourselves, when we want to believe. Melisandre most of all, I think. The sword is wrong, she has to know that... light without heat... an empty glamor... the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness, Sam. Daenerys is our hope. Tell them that, at the Citadel. Make them listen."

Aemon here spells out the reasons why prophecy can't be trusted and pretty much confirms outright the Targ belief that AAR/PP is a Targ when he says, "Stannis has some of the dragon blood". Slightly off my topic, but there is a good case to be made that any "dragon blood" would do and that The Doom was a calculated attempt to stop AA's return.

CONCLUSIONS

GRRM has set us up. As usual. The intriguing mystery of "who is AAR ?" is something of a red herring quite misleading. The author sets up the standard "return of the saviour" trope and then explodes it by having, not a "chosen one" but "possible many". It's then people's beliefs that will decide where the sellsword swings his blade.

[addicted to snow]

My thoughts are that AAR has to be Reborn… Therefore AAR cannot be a living character (unless that living character dies & is then reborn)… I believe that our options for AAR are limited all characters who have died or will die…

Additionally, I believe that the prophesy regarding smoke & salt is far more literal that most readers assume… In other words: salt is not tears & smoke is not 'smoking wounds'; nor is it Dragonstone…

The most obvious choice for AAR & by far the fan-favorite would be Jon Snow… I disagree - or at least I feel that it will not be this simple… GRRM has a habit of coming out of left field with the the most subtly hinted plot developments. I think there will be a twist...

AAR will indeed be reborn into Jon Snow's body, but he will not be Jon Snow…

[TheTowerOfJoy]

The Prince That Was Promised

Finally a great pair of bronze doors appeared to her left, grander than the rest. They swung open as she neared, and she had to stop and look. Beyond loomed a cavernous stone hall, the largest she had ever seen. The skulls of dead dragons looked down from its walls. Upon a towering barbed throne sat an old man in rich robes, an old man with dark eyes and long silver-grey hair. “Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat,” he said to a man below him. “Let him be the king of ashes.” Drogon shrieked, his claws digging through silk and skin, but the king on his throne never heard, and Dany moved on. Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?” “Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked. “He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

Daenerys IV, A Clash of Kings

So this takes place in the context of Dany's visit to the House of The Undying, which is several essays in and of itself, so we'll just consider the above as it is the first mention of PP. From what we know we can deduce that the man must be Rhaegar, the woman is Elia and the baby, little Aegon, certainly the mention of PP would back that up as Aemon will coroborate later. At least at first glance that's how it looks, some of the details don't add up. Rhaegar never sat the throne and it was Aerys that uttered the immortal line, "Let him be King over charred bones and cooked meat". So was it Aerys and Rhaella perhaps ? Again it doesn't quite fit because of the name of the baby. The truth is, for all we know that was Aerion and Valaena at the birth of Aegon I or, more interestingly, it may have been a portent of the future.

The essay OP botched the part in blue. Go look at the part I highlighted in red.

The first guy is the one on the throne and it is indeed Aerys who says "Let him be King over charred bones and cooked meat", and then Dany leaves that room, and sees someone that looks like Viserys, but it's Rhaegar and Elia.

Other than that, good job on pulling it all together.

Would it be possible to pull the Last Hero quotes in as well, since I believe the Last Hero is the story of the original Azor Ahai, and there are several parallels there to indicate it could be.

[Black Crow]

You want to pull them in, you pull them in. All that Butcher Crow has done and done very well, is provide the OP for discussion by all of us, yourself included. If you want to argue that the Last Hero was Azor Ahai go right ahead and present your evidence. That's what this specialist thread is about.

[Vegeta_Greyjoy]

I would like to throw Thoros' name into the hat. The man does have flaming swords, after all.

[King of Winters]

Great essay, TheButcherCrow. I'm staring to get the feeling, reading this, that either the prophecy will be fulfilled by multiple people, who don't know they're fulfilling the prophecy or that AAR/TPTWP isn't the good guy people believe AAR/TPTWP is.

[addicted to snow]

My thoughts are that AAR has to be Reborn… Therefore AAR cannot be a living character (unless that living character dies & is then reborn)… I believe that our options for AAR are limited all characters who have died or will die…

Additionally, I believe that the prophesy regarding smoke & salt is far more literal that most readers assume… In other words: salt is not tears & smoke is not 'smoking wounds'; nor is it Dragonstone…

The most obvious choice for AAR & by far the fan-favorite would be Jon Snow… I disagree - or at least I feel that it will not be this simple… GRRM has a habit of coming out of left field with the the most subtly hinted plot developments. I think there will be a twist...

AAR will indeed be reborn into Jon Snow's body, but he will not be Jon Snow…

Puzzling Elements that I feel strongly are related to AAR & who he will be:

1. The Great Wolf & the Burning Man who Dany saw dancing with MMD the night that Khal Drogo died...

The Red Comet… Who does the comet represent? Ned? Khal Drogo? Or both? Will the comet return?...

MMD's 'prophesy' to Dany: "When the sun rises in the West…….. Then he (Khal Drogo) will return & not before"...

I'm not sure if it will be Drogo's Spirit Returning or if it will be a mixture of Drogo & Ned's Spirits as one that is returned to the story… But I think that we will see the Red Comet return & it will deliver AAH back into the world where he will be reborn amongst salt & smoke… In order for this to happen, we need a body for AAR to inhabit & that is where I think GRRM is going to do with Jon Snow's body.

[butterbumps!]

“Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned … and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end … death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn

Tyrion VI, A Dance With Dragons

I have to come back to this more thoroughly later, but I just want to say that this is what absolutely kills me about the way AA is taken to be a synonym for "one true hero good guy and president of awesome."

I really want to highlight this for the record that the AA legend isn't about vanquishing extreme darkness, such as what many take to be gathering beyond the Wall, like eternal night/ winter. No, AA is supposed to unilaterally defeat all darkness, and usher forth eternal summer and an age of complete immortality, even to the point of raising dead armies.

Yea. This doesn't at all sound like an absolute nightmare, totally not at all what the big bad Others are doing, and certainly nothing that should be raising any alarms for us.

ETA: Great Work Butcher.

[addicted to snow]

great essay, by the way, Butcher Crow… nice work...

[Vegeta_Greyjoy]

Some other reasons why Thoros of Myr cannot be ruled out:

-performed a very noteworthy miracle, which to my knowledge hasn't been achieved by anyone else

-comes from the Free Cities, where a ceremonial Prince is elected(as we find out from the Tattered Prince)

-makes for a pretty good redemption arc

-was in King's Landing at the time Rhaegar got it in his head he was a hero of prophecy

-his 'kiss of life' has led to 2 lives being brought back, and although miraculous in and of itself, is still seen as failure...much like the story of Azor Ahai crafting a sword but having them break when trying to temper it

[TheTowerOfJoy]

The Last Hero

Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken those lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods, the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog and a dozen companions. For years he searched until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds.

"The armor of the Others is proof against most ordinary blades, if the tales can be believed," said Sam, "and their own swords are so cold they shatter steel. Fire will dismay them, though, and they are vulnerable to obsidian." He remembered the one he had faced in the haunted forest, and how it had seemed to melt away when he stabbed it with the dragonglass dagger Jon had made for him. "I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it."

"Dragonsteel?" Jon frowned. "Valyrian steel?"

"That was my first thought as well."

Just wanted to get the original quotes in there, I've got to run and will make my arguments later.

[PrettyPig]

Re: the Red Comet..... I did some work for a now-deleted thread on a now-forbidden topic, and discovered that if you go back through the timeline, Mance's son Aemon Steelsong would have been conceived during the time the comet was visible, and of course he was born "amidst salt and smoke" during the Battle of Castle Black.

[TheButcherCrow]

The essay OP botched the part in blue. Go look at the part I highlighted in red.

The first guy is the one on the throne and it is indeed Aerys who says "Let him be King over charred bones and cooked meat", and then Dany leaves that room, and sees someone that looks like Viserys, but it's Rhaegar and Elia.

Other than that, good job on pulling it all together.

Would it be possible to pull the Last Hero quotes in as well, since I believe the Last Hero is the story of the original Azor Ahai, and there are several parallels there to indicate it could be.

Good catch, you are spot on.

[alienarea]

Some other reasons why Thoros of Myr cannot be ruled out:

-performed a very noteworthy miracle, which to my knowledge hasn't been achieved by anyone else

-comes from the Free Cities, where a ceremonial Prince is elected(as we find out from the Tattered Prince)

-makes for a pretty good redemption arc

-was in King's Landing at the time Rhaegar got it in his head he was a hero of prophecy

-his 'kiss of life' has led to 2 lives being brought back, and although miraculous in and of itself, is still seen as failure...much like the story of Azor Ahai crafting a sword but having them break when trying to temper it

Who will be his third kiss:

- Jon Snow (unlikely because of the distance)

- Sandor Clegane (before Quiet Isle)

- Jaime Lannister (after Stoneheart?)

- Brienne of Tarth (after Stoneheart?)

I'd go with Brienne as she might kill a lion before and it could tie to Dunk and Egg. Also Jaime's dream.

[TheButcherCrow]

Great essay, TheButcherCrow. I'm staring to get the feeling, reading this, that either the prophecy will be fulfilled by multiple people, who don't know they're fulfilling the prophecy or that AAR/TPTWP isn't the good guy people believe AAR/TPTWP is.

The basic sense I got was that Dany fits the prophecy the closest She is the only one (so far) to "wake Dragons from stone", but I sense that doesn't really matter. The prophecy is extremely vague and people will chose to follow who they choose to follow based on what's important to them. Posterity will then deal with who is named Azor Ahai Reborn and who is name Night's King.

[Frey family reunion]

A few additional things to ponder about the AA myth. Let's start with

When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone

The concept of being born again makes me think of a baptism (i.e. born again christian). We have two "baptisms" detailed in ACOK:

First was Stannis' baptism in smoke when he takes up "Lightbringer" and is born again as "Azor Ahai" the agent of the Red God

Pale flames licked at the grey sky. Dark smoke rose, twisting and curling. When the wind pushed it toward them, men blinked and wept and rubbed their eyes. Allard turned his head away coughing and cursing...

A ragged wave of shouts gave answer, just as Stannis's glove began to smolder...

Stannis peeled off the glove and let it fall to the ground. The gods in the pyre were scarcely recognizable anymore. The head fell off the Smith with a puff of ash and embers.

Then we have Theon and his baptism in salt when he is "born again" in the religion of the Ironborn:

"Bow your head." Lifting the skin, his uncle pulled the cork and directed a thin stream of seawater down upon Theon's head...

Sheets washed down his cheeks, and a finger crept under his cloak and doublet and down his back, a cold rivulet along his spine. The salt made his eyes burn, and it was all he could do not to cry out. He could taste the ocean on his lips.

Interestingly both characters have been described often in connection with Iron. Which btw is the main ingredient for making steel.

[Matthew.]

In line with the thread topic, I've been thinking a lot about AAR, and the unreliability of prophecy (more specifically, the in-world interpreters of prophecy). Somehow, I just find it difficult to believe that all of this is leading up to some destined Fire Messiah, personally chosen by R'hllor, fighting on behalf of "The Good Guys" against the leader of the Others. There seems to be multiple candidates for AAR, I'm increasingly wondering whether or not the red herring involved with AAR isn't who, but what.

I think this becomes especially important in light of Melisandre's POV; prior to our look inside her head, she projects an air of mystery, and knowledge, yet we now know that she's mostly BSing her way through her interpretations. I see no reason to believe that this applies any less to the Red Priests as a whole, and whomever wrote the original AAR prophecy. They're a bunch of religious zealots, so their conclusions about their visions should be viewed as highly suspect.

The original AA, and Lightbringer

With that in mind, I think it's possible that we've already seen several elements within the text that might help us to understand the original AA, or at least the myth of Lightbringer. We've definitely seen someone wielding a magically powered flaming sword: Beric Dondarrion. However, his sword, like Thoros' tourney swords, cannot stand up to the strain, and eventually breaks.

However, if you were to bring together Beric's magic flaming blood trickery with a more durable weapon (Valyrian Steel? Dawn?), might you create a weapon capable of prolonged use in battle? Would the onlookers, witnessing this magically flaming sword, characterize it as 'dragonsteel?'

So, you have some fellow long ago, reborn in fire like Beric, wielding a flaming sword, and eventually tales of him start to make their way East. The truth of the man becomes increasingly lost in the retelling, and as factions like the Red Priests co-opt the myth, the modern story of AA has only fragments of the truth.
_____

Having said all of that, could it be possible that, by the end of the series, there won't be just one character who has been 'reborn in fire,' but several? The North is plagued with Others and wights, while the river lands and the South are plagued with Beric/Catelyn style fire wights, echoing on a larger scale the whole 'lions and wolves' theme from the first three books - just as the peasantry were equally terrorized by Stark and Lannister loyalists (and Vargo, who worked for both), we might similarly see that Fire and Ice become equally horrifying to the smallfolk, rather than a clear cut good or evil choice.