Wise Fool Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Varys is underrated because most people seem to think (and the show portrays this view as well) that Varys is not as good as Littlefinger at The Game. But I don't think that's actually the case. And also most readers don't seem to believe that Varys really is working 'for the good of the realm' as he sees it, but I do. Also, they're both underrated because they both lack penises, and most people believe that with great penises comes great power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HosteenOsteen Posted August 13, 2014 Author Share Posted August 13, 2014 Something Varys and Mel have in common is, they had to endure a lot to get where they are, also they lived by their wits and their talents, they were not nobly born, unless you believe Varys was some sort of Balckfyre.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HosteenOsteen Posted August 13, 2014 Author Share Posted August 13, 2014 Sorry, the exact word he used was 'misunderstood', see below. But it pretty much amounts to the same thing, I guess he is saying their intentions or motivations are underrated, if they are misunderstood... http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/86850-melisandre-and-varys-misunderstood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HosteenOsteen Posted August 13, 2014 Author Share Posted August 13, 2014 WIse Fool said: "And also most readers don't seem to believe that Varys really is working 'for the good of the realm' as he sees it, but I do." Yes, you put it very well, that is what I was trying to say.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batbob45 Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I don't like Mel, she was willing to sacrifice a innocent kid for her god. While both has good reason to be hated(MEl and her burnings)(Varys and him cutting his little birds tongues out),Varys was the one to give Edric Storm nameday gifts and he taught his spies(who are orphans) to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 GRRM has said Varys and Melisandre are the two characters most underrated by readers. No, he said they were 2 of the most misunderstood. Mel is Gandalf. (Backs the rightful king, knows ancient prophecy, wants to save world, is superpowerful, etc.) GRRM’s trick was to introduce Mel in a way that would correspond to writing LOTR from the perspective of Denethor. I can't get on board with this, I must disagree. 1st of all Gandalf says something very similar to "I find it is the small acts of kindness that keep evil at bay" Gandalf would never condone killing "for the greater good" that is a huge difference in the 2 already. 2nd, saying Mel supports the rightful king is a pretty convoluted statement, the right king by what definition? If Stannis' claim comes from Roberts claim then Stannis' claim is based on conquest wheres Dany's and Jon's are based on bloodline, that again eventually leads back to conquest. For that matter, no 1 in the history of the world, or any world, has ever had the "right" to be a king, they took the "right" and no 1 stopped them. 3rd Mel is no Gandalf in terms of power, she gets visions that she is not smart enough to properly interpret(I'm not calling her stupid I'm just saying she doesn't have enough knowledge) and is a shadowbinder, in other words a magical assassin. I don't think I could fit all of Gandalfs powers into 1 thread. 4th The king she backs is Stannis... so her king is more likely to become the nights king than king of the 7 kingdoms, so in a way she is more like Sauromon, supporting the evil king out of ignorance. Sauromons ignorance was believing Sauron was going to win no matter what and Mels is that Stannis is AA even tho she knows his sword is a fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Varys is underrated because most people seem to think (and the show portrays this view as well) that Varys is not as good as Littlefinger at The Game. But I don't think that's actually the case. And also most readers don't seem to believe that Varys really is working 'for the good of the realm' as he sees it, but I do. Also, they're both underrated because they both lack penises, and most people believe that with great penises comes great power. You are about to be hit over the head with the power of Tormund's member. As far as Varys working for the "good of the realm," I think he thinks HIS influence is for the good of the realm, regardless of what it takes to allow him to influence those in power. Whether that is actually what's good for the realm or not is much more questionable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wise Fool Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 JonSnow4President: Well sure, I'm only speaking of his intentions. I think he believes he's working toward a greater good. But I disagree with the implication that he thinks it's good because it's his own influence - I think that kind of self-absorbed attitude more closely fits Littlefinger. Anyway, I for one, welcome our Tormund's Member overlords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salafi Stannis Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I like Mel better than Varys actually. In fact, I think it might be a possibility that she knows Stannis isn't Azor Ahai, but she tells him that anyway to increase her own power while searching for the real one. Also she has cool powers, whereas Varys, while being cool, is just too contradictory for me to begin to understand. I like him best under the theory that he's working with the FM. She really does believe that Stannis is the real deal. She thinks to herself in one of her POV's at the wall "Lord", she prayed. "Show me your king, your instrument" and a lot of other thoughts like that to show she really does believe Stannis the Mannis is AAR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 WIse Fool said: "And also most readers don't seem to believe that Varys really is working 'for the good of the realm' as he sees it, but I do." Yes, you put it very well, that is what I was trying to say....Someone who actively seeks out a war is not working in the interests of.the Realm. (aGoT when he is.talking to Illyrio)Someone who seeks to maintain a mad and chaotic.ruler so Westeros will remain in chaos is also not.working to help the Realm (aDwD epilogue) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salafi Stannis Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I don't like Mel, she was willing to sacrifice a innocent kid for her god. While both has good reason to be hated(MEl and her burnings)(Varys and him cutting his little birds tongues out),Varys was the one to give Edric Storm nameday gifts and he taught his spies(who are orphans) to read. I don't remember reading anything about him cutting out his little birds' tongues. Quote please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batbob45 Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 it was hinted in Arya chapter when she was listen to Varys conversation with Illyrio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I don't remember reading anything about him cutting out his little birds' tongues. Quote please Its implied in his conversation with Illyrio. Books not handy, paraphrasing here:"old enough to know their letters...if they could keep their tongues...the risk..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Someone who actively seeks out a war is not working in the interests of.the Realm. (aGoT when he is.talking to Illyrio)Someone who seeks to maintain a mad and chaotic.ruler so Westeros will remain in chaos is also not.working to help the Realm (aDwD epilogue)Well, you justify revolutions that the end result is worth the war. If you believe Aegon is THE guy, than it can be reasoned to be in the good of the realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Well, you justify revolutions that the end result is worth the war. If you believe Aegon is THE guy, than it can be reasoned to be in the good of the realm.But not if the costs of that "revolution" far outweigh its benefits...and let's be honest: at the end of the day, one dude replaces another dude on the throne. Whether red dragon or black dragon or stag...what does it matter? The shitty system stays the same ;).Mel fights the real fight, Varys plays a petty game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 But not if the costs of that "revolution" far outweigh its benefits...and let's be honest: at the end of the day, one dude replaces another dude on the throne. Whether red dragon or black dragon or stag...what does it matter? The shitty system stays the same ;).Mel fights the real fight, Varys plays a petty game.Well, let's say the revolution replaces Joffrey with someone with the best traits of Stannis, Jon, Ned, Dany (I dislike her, but I'll admit she has good traits), and whoever else you find to be a good leader. Is it worth it then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Someone who actively seeks out a war is not working in the interests of.the Realm. (aGoT when he is.talking to Illyrio)Someone who seeks to maintain a mad and chaotic.ruler so Westeros will remain in chaos is also not.working to help the Realm (aDwD epilogue) Reminds me of the "I Claudius" series, where Emperor Claudius decides to install a nut like Nero so that he will be so much hated that the people will rise up, get rid of emperors altogether and return back to the republic. Claudius never wanted to be an emperor and was pro-republic. But then the army elected him emperor, and after Caligula and Tiberius he was a well loved emperor. He realized that people started to see an emperor as a good thing. So he made the adopted Nero his heir over his own son. Didn't went down so well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 GRRM has said Varys and Melisandre are the two characters most underrated by readers. In terms of our conversation here, our estimation of both does not seem to be too high-Varys is seen as an unreliable schemer who lies to a man about to die in proclaiming the superiority of (f)Aegon, and even with all the Stannis fans on here, that love does not seem to extend to the Red Woman. So what is so great about either. both of them? Because they are awesome, Mel is a sexy witch who believes in Stannis' cause and is one of his truest his followers. People say she is just crazy when have been in her head, she is very tamed and a team player. Did she she to kill Edric? Yeah, but she was trying to save the world, not only win the war. Varys is the most honest man there is, the rest just see as they see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Well, let's say the revolution replaces Joffrey with someone with the best traits of Stannis, Jon, Ned, Dany (I dislike her, but I'll admit she has good traits), and whoever else you find to be a good leader. Is it worth it then?No, because as I said: you basically just change one dude with another. The system stays the same and it's that system which causes all of that injustice in the first place. If total chaos and war is needed to put another dude on a chair to rule them all, I cannot believe in your altruistic motives.Mel get's a lot of flak because she wanted to sacrifice Edric. And rightly so. But I believe her that she believed it when she said "it's him or all the children of Westeros". That's a moral dilemma which basically every political leader faces or might face, even today and even in democratic countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost's Shadow Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Even Catelyn Stark had to admit to herself that Jon Snow wasn't going to be the problem, but that his children one day might be... Aegon can be the most wonderful king, but that doesn't automatically mean that his children or grandchildren will be, same as with every other person who sits the IT. Hundreds of thousands of dead people even before Westeros gets to deal with the Others, does not justify what Varys is doing. "For the children," he says, but it sure isn't Westeros' children he means. Besides, what if 2 days after setting himself down on the IT, Aegon trips and breaks his neck? All for nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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