Jump to content

Cersei and her Valonqar

Lord Defiance

By Lord Defiance,
in General (ASoIaF)

Recommended Posts

Lord Defiance Freerider

Lord Defiance

Posted
Posted

Is there anyone who believes that her Valonqar will be Tyrion? I don't know how much foreshadowing is in the books, only read through once but plan on doing it again, but for a while I believed it would actually be Jaime.

But lately I've been wondering.. What if it will be Tyrion?

What is everyone's thoughts on the matter?

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Wavey Sauce Council Member

Wavey Sauce

Posted
Posted

Some little brothers:

Stannis

Rickorn

Brann

Sandor

Jamie

Tyrion

Tommen

Samwell's brother

Jon Snow (assuming R+L=J, counting half-siblings)

The younger Kettleblacks (that would be fun)

Many, many more.

Ramsay Snow/Bolton as well, another possible one for that list

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Council Member

Ferocious Veldt Roarer

Posted
Posted

In the book, doesn't it refer to HER little brother though?

No, it refers to the little brother. Which kinda rules out all those random candidates unrelated to Cersei (or even anyone mentioned in the prophecy - the list is very short either way). Random anyone who happens not to be a firstborn doesn't get a the before his title. Same goes for the interpretation where that "younger and more beautiful" first, isn't a queen, second, "more beautiful" refers to inner beauty. (More inner beauty that Cersei? Fuck, that could be anyone, with Ramsay Snow being one of the very few exceptions.) I dismiss those interpretations because they boil down to this: if "the valonqar" means anybody from, say, 80 percent of the general population (everyone excluding the firstborn), and the YMBQ becomes "younger, more beautiful internally, not necessarily queen" (so, bottom line, anybody born after 266 AC excluding Ramsay Snow), then the words of the prophecy are just fluff and contain little information.

And I still insist it's an undead Tommen. It fits wonderfully. Maggy told her everything plain and straightforward ("hey, your kids will die, and then the youngest one will kill you, how could you misunderstand that?"). Cersei suspects Tyrion, because Tyrion was born to be blamed for everything, that little ugly mother killer. A shrewd reader says it can't be too easy, so it's her younger twin brother. And the real solution is Tommen. Bonus points: it's not (only) about Cersei's fucked up family life, it's about the second Long Night.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Dragon88 Squire

Dragon88

Posted
Posted

I believe it was Jaimie as soon as I heard the prophecy because it is something that Martin would do. I actually see a scenario where Jaime kills Cersei. The way I see it is that Cersi continues doing stupid things which causes both her children to die and then she started doing more things that would cause lot more people to die and eventually forcing Jaimie to kill Cersi in order to stop the madness after all he is good at killing crazy ruler.


Link to comment
Share on other sites
Lady Blizzardborn Council Member

Lady Blizzardborn

Posted
Posted

The only way it could be Tyrion is if GRRM loves the irony of having that be the only thing in the entire series that Cersei was right about. She has rather given him reason to want her dead. Should have gone out of her way to be nice to him to try and prevent it. Not the brightest crayon in the box there.



In order of likelihood:



1. Jaime


2. Tyrion


3, Stannis


4. Garlan or Loras Tyrell (both younger than Willas)


5. the Kettleblacks


6. Edmure Tully


7. Sandor Clegane (if anything happens to Sansa)


8. Aegon or Jon (assuming either one is Rhaegar's son)


9. Trystane Martell (if anything happens to Myrcella)


10. Bran (via warging)


11. anyone in the Second Sons (Brown Ben maybe)


12. unTommen


13. unRenly (wouldn't that be fun?)


14. One of the Lannister cousins.


15. Uncle Gerion


16. Daario (could be somebody's little brother)


17. Victarion or Euron


18. Dark horse candidate: Theon, if he gets his strength back.



I'm sure there are others I've left out, but these are the main options I think.


Link to comment
Share on other sites
Calavera_ Commoner

Calavera_

Posted
Posted

I've been wondering if the Valonqar is not a person at all, which is why Maggy the Frog used this very specific word "valonqar" rather than naming it in the Common Tongue. I believe it's the only word in Valyrian she speaks during her encounter with Cersei, so to me it really stands out as being important as a word itself.



When we read about Brandon Stark's execution - either a Ned POV or a Jaime POV, I forget which - it's said that he was strapped into a torture device with a leather strap around his neck. His sword was placed just out of his reach and he was told tht if he could reach the sword, he could free his father. It sounds very much like the garotte, which was the method of execution in Spain right up until the 1970s. I'd guess that if the Mad King used it regularly, this device would still be down in the black cells and could easily be brought back into service. Tyrion might even have walked right past it when Varys blindfolded him and led him out of prison to escape at the end of ASoS.



Maybe if Cersei's trial goes wrong and ZombieGregor loses his fight with the Faith's champion, she'll be executed with this device - the High Sparrow has talked in detail about the method of trial but as far as I recall, he hasn't talked about the penalty if she's found guilty. Could Cersei even be driven to suicide, after the potential forthcoming deaths of her children?



Admittedly there are things that don't immediately fit in this theory; Maggy specfically speaks of the valonqar having hands, but if the device the Mad King used to kill Brandon was somehow decorated with hands, or even utilised the golden chain of hands lately worn by Tywin, it might fit. If the valonqar is an object rather than a person, that could also be why Maggy used "the" rather than "your" valonqar.



Any thoughts?




Link to comment
Share on other sites
Lady Blizzardborn Council Member

Lady Blizzardborn

Posted
Posted

I've been wondering if the Valonqar is not a person at all, which is why Maggy the Frog used this very specific word "valonqar" rather than naming it in the Common Tongue. I believe it's the only word in Valyrian she speaks during her encounter with Cersei, so to me it really stands out as being important as a word itself.

When we read about Brandon Stark's execution - either a Ned POV or a Jaime POV, I forget which - it's said that he was strapped into a torture device with a leather strap around his neck. His sword was placed just out of his reach and he was told tht if he could reach the sword, he could free his father. It sounds very much like the garotte, which was the method of execution in Spain right up until the 1970s. I'd guess that if the Mad King used it regularly, this device would still be down in the black cells and could easily be brought back into service. Tyrion might even have walked right past it when Varys blindfolded him and led him out of prison to escape at the end of ASoS.

Maybe if Cersei's trial goes wrong and ZombieGregor loses his fight with the Faith's champion, she'll be executed with this device - the High Sparrow has talked in detail about the method of trial but as far as I recall, he hasn't talked about the penalty if she's found guilty. Could Cersei even be driven to suicide, after the potential forthcoming deaths of her children?

Admittedly there are things that don't immediately fit in this theory; Maggy specfically speaks of the valonqar having hands, but if the device the Mad King used to kill Brandon was somehow decorated with hands, or even utilised the golden chain of hands lately worn by Tywin, it might fit. If the valonqar is an object rather than a person, that could also be why Maggy used "the" rather than "your" valonqar.

Any thoughts?

An interesting possibility but I'd put it in the "unlikely" category. For one thing, we've already seen that with Brandon Stark as you mentioned. For another, "the valonqar will wrap his hands around your pale, white throat" does rather seem to indicate that hands (or a chain of hands) will be wrapped around Cersei's throat.

The reason valonqar is used is because the author wants to keep us guessing. There has been a suggestion that the reason a High Valyrian word was used is because Cersei's killer will be of Valyrian descent (cue secret Targs, Lannistargs, and all kinds of other ideas). If, and it's a big if, that is the case Aegon or Jon would be the best bet, followed by Trystane Martell and/or Brown Ben Plumm.

ETA: Welcome to the forums!

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Snarky Squire

Snarky

Posted
Posted

Tyrion is too obvious. My bet is either Jaime or Tommen (most likely I think). My reasons for this is that there is such emphasis placed on who will kill Cersei, which is kind of weird. The importance seems to be on the who rather than the event itself. By this reasoning it has to be someone of significance to her in order for it to justify the emphasis of the prophecy being on the killers identity rather than the place, time, motive, etc. Tyrion is the most obvious which rules im out I think, Jaime and Tommen are the most poetic (but Tommen would be a real twist since everyone is expecting Jaime to be the one). None of the other candidates are siginificant enough to Cersei for the prophecy to revolve around the person.


Link to comment
Share on other sites
Archmaester Drew Council Member

Archmaester Drew

Posted
Posted

Tyrion is too obvious. My bet is either Jaime or Tommen (most likely I think). My reasons for this is that there is such emphasis placed on who will kill Cersei, which is kind of weird. The importance seems to be on the who rather than the event itself. By this reasoning it has to be someone of significance to her in order for it to justify the emphasis of the prophecy being on the killers identity rather than the place, time, motive, etc. Tyrion is the most obvious which rules im out I think, Jaime and Tommen are the most poetic (but Tommen would be a real twist since everyone is expecting Jaime to be the one). None of the other candidates are siginificant enough to Cersei for the prophecy to revolve around the person.

I like the idea of Tommen, but Cersei is supposed to outlive him according to Maggy. (And don't say unTommen, Ugh!)

:)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Go to topic listing
×
×
  • Create New...