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R+L=J v.98


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#1 Angalin

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 02:56 PM

Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories


Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty.
 For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option. 

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious.
 Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 17 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon careWho cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

 

Since this theory has been refined so well, will Martin change the outcome of the story to surprise his fans?
No, he said he won't change the outcome of the story only because some people have put together all the clues and solved the puzzle.


Previous editions:

 

Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread.

 

Spoiler
 


#2 Ygrain

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 02:58 PM

 

Was Frodo the only hero that single handedly saved the Middle Earth?

 

He had a companion (or two) and there were other heroes that hang on long enough for him to carry the ring to the fire. They kept the enemy occupied at other fronts to clear the way for the ringbearer.

 

I think it looks like a bad cliche if all the remaning heroes in ASOIAF unite against the common threat. The good way to subvert the cliche is to make a handful of heroes deal with the common threat while other heroes do not pay attention to them and even make things harder for them.

I like your line of thinking :-)

 

To develop on the idea of Brandon wanting to meet some woman from the wedding party: if it was Barbrey, perhaps he wasn't such a D-bag to have sex with her but rather make sure that she would shut up about their tryst. It would be pretty awkward if she dropped some hints before Cat.



#3 BearQueen87

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 02:59 PM

 

You think that Barbrey might have attended the wedding? :P

 

Or that he would have gone to KL to enquire about Ashara? - Which, of course, wouldn't be generally known and people (read: Catelyn) would assume that he went there because of Rhaegar. However, if he originally went to KL because of Ashara and learned of Rhaegar and Lyanna only while he was there, or just before KL, it would explain why he acted so rashly, when he supposedly would have had days of travel to calm down and think the whole matter through (and hopefully, his friends would have tried to talk him out of it) if he travelled from somewhere further off.

 

Ack! We were threadless there for a second.

 

The above was from Ygrain

 

Not Barbrey necessarily, but just any other woman.



#4 Ygrain

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 03:01 PM

 

Ack! We were threadless there for a second.

 

The above was from Ygrain

 

Not Barbrey necessarily, but just any other woman.

And the post above yours further develops on the idea :-)



#5 Rhaenys_Targaryen

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 03:01 PM

Well, this transition from thread to thread went smooth :)



#6 Jon Weirgaryen

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 03:02 PM

To develop on the idea of Brandon wanting to meet some woman from the wedding party: if it was Barbrey, perhaps he wasn't such a D-bag to have sex with her but rather make sure that she would shut up about their tryst. It would be pretty awkward if she dropped some hints before Cat.

 

I like that thought, too.

 

 

 

Ack! We were threadless there for a second.

 

Not Barbrey necessarily, but just any other woman.

 

Did you suffer, much?

 

Good thought, too.



#7 WarLord

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 03:03 PM

If it turns out that Jon Snow is AA OR THE Promised Prince then ASOIAF won't be different/new from the other fantasy novels.
As just like Harry Potter lone Hero rises acc.to prophecy & saves the world.

#8 BearQueen87

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 03:05 PM

 

 

I like your line of thinking :-)

 

To develop on the idea of Brandon wanting to meet some woman from the wedding party: if it was Barbrey, perhaps he wasn't such a D-bag to have sex with her but rather make sure that she would shut up about their tryst. It would be pretty awkward if she dropped some hints before Cat.

 

 

Yes, that follows nicely. Even if Barbrey had promised not to say anything, he might have wanted to "remind" her of that promise

 

 

 

 

Did you suffer, much?

 

 

I did. It was like I was lost in a sea of no RLJ until a bright light came over the horizon, like Dawn, and showed me the way home.

 

 

 

(that was sappy)

 

 

If it turns out that Jon Snow is AA OR THE Promised Prince then ASOIAF won't be different/new from the other fantasy novels.
As just like Harry Potter lone Hero rises acc.to prophecy & saves the world.

 

I don't follow. Someone has to be AAR and TPTWP. Sounds like either way you're getting what you think is cliche.


Edited by BearQueen87, 19 August 2014 - 03:19 PM.


#9 Jon Weirgaryen

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 03:08 PM

I feel like I am having a deja vu...

 

If it turns out that Jon Snow is AA OR THE Promised Prince then ASOIAF won't be different/new from the other fantasy novels.
As just like Harry Potter lone Hero rises acc.to prophecy & saves the world.

 

deja repondu:

 

Rest assured that no lone hero will ever save the world, not even Dany will ... except of course in the old stories where that is the matter - well, even the Last Hero brought his dog, didn't he?



#10 Amoracchius

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 03:10 PM

If it turns out that Jon Snow is AA OR THE Promised Prince then ASOIAF won't be different/new from the other fantasy novels.
As just like Harry Potter lone Hero rises acc.to prophecy & saves the world.

 

...but even Harry Potter didn't do it alone. If it weren't for his many friends and family (and especially Hermione), he would have died a thousand deaths before his final confrontation with Voldemort.

 

ASOIAF is similar, but in this case the important actors may not even be aware of one another. I'm increasingly of the opinion that various characters will separately take actions, which could be perceived as fulfilling prophesies, to bring about the resolution of the story.



#11 BearQueen87

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 03:15 PM

I feel like I am having a deja vu...

 

 

deja repondu:

 

Rest assured that no lone hero will ever save the world, not even Dany will ... except of course in the old stories where that is the matter - well, even the Last Hero brought his dog, didn't he?

 

But the puppy died!!!! No more puppy deaths! (poor sad Ghost who is going to be sacrificed)


Edited by BearQueen87, 19 August 2014 - 03:16 PM.


#12 Jon_Samwell_Snow

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 04:00 PM

98 threads and two more to go 100. 

No more direwolf deaths. Lady and Grey Wind were heart breaking enough. 



#13 Ghost's Shadow

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 04:35 PM

If it turns out that Jon Snow is AA OR THE Promised Prince then ASOIAF won't be different/new from the other fantasy novels.
As just like Harry Potter lone Hero rises acc.to prophecy & saves the world.

 

You cannot honestly believe it will be only 1 versus 100,000 or so, and that one will draw his fabled sword Lightbringer and the darkness shall flee before it.

 

Please.

 

If this novel hasn't taught you that titles don't mean anything... ask Stannis how rightful the IT is his, and then look at all the people that just don't care.

 

:)



#14 BearQueen87

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 04:58 PM

 

You cannot honestly believe it will be only 1 versus 100,000 or so, and that one will draw his fabled sword Lightbringer and the darkness shall flee before it.

 

Please.

 

If this novel hasn't taught you that titles don't mean anything... ask Stannis how rightful the IT is his, and then look at all the people that just don't care.

 

:)

 

Pretty much this.

 

I firmly believe that Jon is at least TPTWP but I have no idea what that means. People in the story have interpreted it to mean that he'll save humanity (and he very well may) but it could just be a title and a signifier that he plays one small part in the grand game where everyone plays a part.



#15 MtnLion

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 05:33 PM

As requested, but I am too slow to get on page one.

 

Ned's recurring dream, so don't presume to argue against it because it is a fever dream.  It is recurring, and it holds deep meaning for Ned.  It makes sense to Ned.  It is a cause of much of his grief.  He killed three of the finest knights he had ever known, and the best of all, Ser Arthur Dayne. 

 

Ned and his friends arrive at the tower, as they had in life.  Again, this is reality based dreaming.  This actually occurred, and the dialog is likely paraphrased in Ned's memory, because he is unable to get a lifelike image of his friends.  He vividly remembers the three Kingsguard, though. 

 

"I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.
Ned knew about Prince Lewyn Martell and Ser Jonothor Darry dying at the Trident.  He knew about Ser Barristan Selmy slaying twelve of his and Robert’s friends before being wounded so severely that he may have died without Robert sending his own maester to tend to Selmy’s wounds.  He knew that Ser Jaime Lannister had been in the Red Keep during the battle.  He expected to see these three at the Trident, too. 

 

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.
From the app we know that Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent are with Prince Rhaegar when Lyanna enters the company of the prince.  There is no surprise about events on the Trident expressed by any of these three.  Evidently they are aware of the battle, and the outcome. 

 

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.
This states that Robert is considered an usurper by these Kingsguard, or at least by Ser Oswell Whent.  He does use the term "we" and implies that Robert could not have won the battle at the Trident if these three had been present at the battle.  They know that Robert has been crowned and taken the throne as an usurper.  This also tells us that they know of an heir that is still living that has a better claim than Robert. 

 

“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”
Ned relays that King's Landing has fallen and King Aerys is dead by Jaime’s hand.  Ned knows that the primary duty of the Kingsguard is to protect and defend the king.  He wonders why it is that these three Kingsguard were not with King Aerys when King’s Landing fell. 

 

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”
Ser Gerold Hightower condemns Jaime as a Oathbreaker, and implies that he or one of these others would certainly kill Jaime rather than let him slay the king if they had been present.  Ser Gerold is expressing his support for King Aerys.  He also relays that when Jaime slew Aerys that none of the three had been in a position to react, they were too far away. 

 

“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”
Ned tells them that all remaining forces surrendered to him, and pledged fealty to Robert and Ned.  He expected to find the last of the Kingsguard with these forces, but again was surprised to note that they were not.  This is an invitation for these Kingsguard to surrender to him. 

 

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.
Ser Arthur Dayne speaks for the group, and says that they will not surrender.  Of note, when Ned approaches the tower Ser Oswell Whent is on his knee.  That fact and this line can amount to a subtle clue that the Kingsguard have already bent their knees at the tower, before Ned arrives. 

 

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”
Ned has offered the Kingsguard the option of surrendering to him, which they rejected.  This line is disjointed in the timeline because Ned is changing his tactic.  He holds the Kingsguard, especially these three in high regard, even years later.  He called them a shining example to the rest of the world.  In an attempt to find some talking point that would lead to a peaceful solution, Ned tells them that their queen and prince have fled to Dragonstone without Kingsguard protection.  This is an opening for the Kingsguard to discuss a tactical withdrawal.  It is within Ned’s capabilities, as second in command, to provide safe passage.  It would be in his, his friend’s and the Kingsguard’s best interests to allow them to go to Dragontsone to carry out their duties there. 

 

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.
Ser Willem Darry is a brother to Ser Jonothor Darry of the Kingsguard, and known well to these members of the Kingsguard. They are admitting that they know that "Prince" Viserys is without a Kingsguard.  They have ignored the insult of labeling Viserys as a prince, when he should be considered the king. 

 

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”
On the night that news of the Trident arrived at King's Landing Aerys ordered that Rhaella and Viserys be taken to Dragonstone for their safety, as it appeared that King's Landing would shortly be under siege. Jaime was the only Kingsguard in King's Landing so Ser Willem Darry was drafted to protect the royal family members, while Jaime remained with King Aerys, Elia, and her children.

 

The Lord Commander recognizes that Ser Willem Darry is not Kingsguard, thus the queen and prince Viserys are not currently under Kingsguard protection.  Taken together with Ned’s statement, it is easy to see that Ser Gerold Hightower sees leaving King Aerys' side at King’s Landing as fleeing from his duty, even if it was to protect Queen Rhaella and Prince Viserys.

 

If the Red Keep falls, and Aerys dies then Viserys was safe as long as he could stay alive on Dragonstone.  The majority of the fighting men had gone with Rhaegar, and mustering enough men to defend the city or just the Red Keep may be difficult.  Without a Kingsguard to protect them Darry, Viserys and Daenerys are nearly captured and turned over to Robert.  They manage to escape just before Dragonstone surrenders. 

 

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.
Arthur reiterates that the Kingsguard would have chosen to stay in King's Landing over fleeing with Rhaella and Viserys.   The primary duty of the Kingsguard is to protect and defend the king, they would choose to stay with King Aerys (then) as Rhaella and Viserys flee King's Landing.  It appears that these three Kingsguard have decided that they have an obligation, by their vow, to stay and protect and defend someone at the tower (now). 

 

 “We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.
The Lord Commander is citing the Kingsguard’s vow as the reason that they must stay.  He has decided that all three would remain, and we must presume that the reason is to protect the king.  Several things contribute to this conclusion:

    •The White Bull, as Ser Gerold is known, is quite the stickler when it comes to the comport of Kingsguard duties. 
    •Ser Gerold does not have a friendship with Rhaegar that would favor this decision. 
    •Ser Gerold has already stated that he would slay Jaime to protect Aerys. 
    •Ser Gerold’s decision to keep Arthur and Oswell with him only protects the king (the primary purpose of the Kingsguard) if the king is present at the tower. 
    •Ned knows that these men were honoring their Kingsguard vow.  There is no other vow that Ned is ever aware of.  He thinks of these three as the epitome of honor and skill.  A shining example for the world. 

 

Reading these three statements, The Kingsguard does not flee (from its duty to protect King Aerys) then or (from its duty to protect Jon) now, because (explained) we swore a vow; puts things in a very clear light.

 

Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three. 

GRRM has confirmed that with equal equipment Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Arthur Dayne are a close match, with Dawn in hand Ser Arthur is superior.  Ser Barristan single-handedly rescued King Aerys from captivity at Duskendale.  Ser Jaime Lannister expresses his awe at the defeat of the Kingswood Brotherhood and the Smiling Knight, who was slain by Ser Arthur.  In the screenplay Jaime slays a dozen men before being subdued at the battle of the Whispering Woods.  Kingsguard practice daily among themselves. 

 

One of the seven is a crannogman, not known for fighting skill.  Another is Ethan Glover, recently released from the Black Cells, and likely weak as well as just being Brandon's squire.  It seems that even facing the odds that they do, the Kingsguard should prevail.  Something odd happened, and I really look forward to GRRM telling us about it. 

 

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.
The most important (first) battle of the Jon Targaryen dynasty.  The mindset of the Kingsguard is that they will win the battle, and keep the secret at the tower safe until they can move to safety.  There is nothing here that would indicate any fatalism on the part of Arthur.  It suggests that Arthur expects to win, though we know with hindsight that they did not, and that at least Ned and Howland are aware of the secret. 

 

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”
Ned knows the outcome, and he regrets that he had to kill the three finest knights in the kingdom, even years later.  If Lyanna had been kidnapped or mistreated while they were present Ned would not have that favorable view of these men.  These three Kingsguard are undoubtedly living up to their "vow to guard the king", in Hightower's own words, to gain Ned's greatest respect.  As fate has it, because these men were so honorable, on both sides of this meeting, they were fated to fight to the bitter end, for honor’s sake. 

Spoiler



#16 Ghost's Shadow

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 06:04 PM

It seems that one's turning into a daily post now. :lol:



#17 MtnLion

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 06:20 PM

It seems that one's turning into a daily post now. :lol:

At least I did make page one, last one was on page four, I think . . . 



#18 Ser Duncan the Small

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 07:03 PM

I missed an entire thread? We're on 98 now?



#19 BearQueen87

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 07:07 PM

I missed an entire thread? We're on 98 now?

 

We really want our party. ;)

 

The past thread was mostly "were R and L married?"



#20 Ser Duncan the Small

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 07:20 PM

 

We really want our party. ;)

 

The past thread was mostly "were R and L married?"

I feel like they were. Being Rhaegar was all philosophical about honor and duty. I imagine he would have wed Lyanna before bedding her. And I think they were truly in love. I also like to imagine Ned is secretly alive with Robb raising a secret army of Northmen to sack Kings Landing and hang Roose Bolton with Ramsay's intestine.