R+L=J v.98

[Jon Weirgaryen]

I noticed some comments from Rhaenys_Targaryen in the last thread about Aegon possibly being born on Dragonstone. Is there any indication in the story that Rhaegar spent time there?

I pondered a question myself but had answered out of memory. It is not mentioned. But as Apple says:

Given that Dragonstone has at times been the seat of the heir apparent, and the heir is titled "Prince(ss) of Dragonstone," it wouldn't surprise me if Rhaegar had spent time there in the story. If nothing else, it's a place away from Aerys.

Although not in the text, it makes sense.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I noticed some comments from Rhaenys_Targaryen in the last thread about Aegon possibly being born on Dragonstone. Is there any indication in the story that Rhaegar spent time there?

nothing textual, but more my line of thinking. Aerys and Rhaegar didn't have a good relationship in the end, and Rhaegar was a man grown and thus allowed to take possession of Dragonstone, as that was his seat as the Prince of Dragonstone.

After getting married, Rhaegar would have the perfect excuse to go live on Dragonstone (visiting KL whenever necessary, it is not that far).

And if Rhaegar had been thinking about the prophecy from before his marriage, it would make sense if he tried to fullfill that part of the prophecy by ensuring that Elia gave both on Dragonstone each time. If Dragonstone can be Dany's "born admits smoke and salt", why can it not be that for Aegon?

The only textual hint is that here was no Grand Maester at the births, but only "maesters". Though I'll be he first to admit that that naturally doesn't mean the births can't have been at KL, (it could have been a coincidence that Pycelle wasn't with Elia), it's just that that passage made me wonder if Elia's place of giving birth could have been somewhere else, and then The Rogue Prince came along, telling how Rhaenyra, as heir to the throne, lived at Dragonstone most of the time, because her relations with important people at court were bad, just like it was with Rhaegar and Aerys.

Because it isn't confirmed yet, I had put "possibly" and "might have been" in my posts on the subject, until such time as it is confirmed (or not).

Apple Martini summarized it nicely:

Given that Dragonstone has at times been the seat of the heir apparent, and the heir is titled "Prince(ss) of Dragonstone," it wouldn't surprise me if Rhaegar had spent time there in the story. If nothing else, it's a place away from Aerys.

[Attitude]

Wow, this thing is exploding! I can't keep up with it.

I still want to quote something from the previous thread, hope this will work:

. From other texts (like The Blacks and the Greens), I get the idea that for a dragon to be an effective weapon against an enemy (that's not another dragon), it needs a human controlling it, to point the dangerous end towards the other army. An army of Others could be a different situation, being polar opposites of dragons and all. . .

2. Night's King is likely just a tale, like the Rat Cook. Who knows?

1. I agree, but I think you should always consider other possibilities then the one that makes sense. Who knows how the Others work and what their goal is?!

2. I disagree. Yes, that has been influenced by the TV show, but mostly by the talk on this forum. The tale of the Rat Cook is most likely 'true' as well. But don't forget, tales are often exaggerated. That doesn't mean it's not true, I just means that the 'truth' gets lost a little over the years, but often the main line is still true.

I guess I was not clear enough in what I meant. I meant that there does not appear to be a force that is not an Other who controls the Others. So even if NK is responsible for everything--NK is still an Other. There is no person or non-Other force--to our knowledge--who could be controlling the Others.

Yes, but the info about how the others came to life at all is insufficient. For all we know they are just cursed by a bad magician.

[UtherSnow]

Was watching "Eragon," today and I have to say that there is something appealing about something that flies AND understands you are about to be air sick.

I was tempted to watch it on TV just a few days ago. Then I spotted your avatar.

What would H R Giger have done with a dragon? I'm not tempted down the path of an oversize Alien. A good, honest, fire-belching dragon as we have in the books. Heavy Metal Drogon? Possibly with Barbarian as his/her anthem. (Continuing HRG link via ELP) Transform Dany in the process too!

But....

If R+L=J.... Jon will fly.... Which dragon?

[Lord Varys]

I guess it is pretty much a given that Rhaegar lived on Dragonstone. TRP, TPatQ, TSotD all confirmed that the Targaryens actually lived on the island after they had conquered Westeros.

Aegon may not even have been conceived in KL - although that's still a possibility, perhaps on the way to Harrenhal? All we know is that there was a comet seen above KL in the night of the conception. Rhaegar could have seen it from Dragonstone.

As to stuff from the other thread:

I'd be very surprised if Lyanna and Elia would have allowed Rhaegar to continue the Targaryen incest. We don't even know what Rhaegar thought about it. Aerys was apparently a traditionalist - and thus Viserys, too, emulating his father - but I'm pretty sure that Ela/Lyanna would have been abhorred by the thought of marrying their children to each other. Just as the other non-Valyrian queens must have been...

I have also great difficulties to a absolve Rhaegat for causing a war because he had good intentions. Stannis also wants to save the world, but sacrificing his innocent nephew is still bad. And prophecies or their interpretations can be wrong. If the prophet was any good, then they won't need anyone who takes it upon himself to consciously fulfill them. Rhaegar did more or less the same thing as Melisandre with Stannis, although with different means. I am pretty sure cannot or should not try to breed the world's savior...

As to polygamy:

I don't think the Targaryens still knew or practiced Valyrian marriage rites, so that should not be a possibility for Rhaegar.

If Rhaegar's decision to take Lyanna as a second wife would have met any opposition - say, by Aerys, the Small Council, various lords, the Faithi etc. - those people could all have declared that it was either unlawful/impossible to have two wives, or that the rite Rhaegar chose to be married to Lyanna did not suffice for the Crown Prince. Marrying before a heart tree may be enough for a Northman, but not for a follower of the Faith. Even Ned and Cat married in a sept. And Rhaegat wanted to rule over quite a lot of Andals, all of which could have construed or considered the fact that he married not in a sept as heresy.

[J. Stargaryen]

I guess it is pretty much a given that Rhaegar lived on Dragonstone. TRP, TPatQ, TSotD all confirmed that the Targaryens actually lived on the island after they had conquered Westeros.

Aegon may not even have been conceived in KL - although that's still a possibility, perhaps on the way to Harrenhal? All we know is that there was a comet seen above KL in the night of the conception. Rhaegar could have seen it from Dragonstone.

As to stuff from the other thread:

I'd be very surprised if Lyanna and Elia would have allowed Rhaegar to continue the Targaryen incest. We don't even know what Rhaegar thought about it. Aerys was apparently a traditionalist - and thus Viserys, too, emulating his father - but I'm pretty sure that Ela/Lyanna would have been abhorred by the thought of marrying their children to each other. Just as the other non-Valyrian queens must have been...

Like Alicent Hightower, who pushed for Rhaenyra to wed Aegon, and eventually had her own children marry? Not to mention, but we already know that there is some degree of Stark incest in their recent history, so I'm not sure why anyone would just assume that Lyanna would abhor it.

Also, why are we assuming Elia abhorred it too? Unless it was something that was specifically discussed or negotiated with her or her family, a marriage between her's and Rhaegar's children was a realistic possibility.

I have also great difficulties to a absolve Rhaegat for causing a war because he had good intentions. Stannis also wants to save the world, but sacrificing his innocent nephew is still bad. And prophecies or their interpretations can be wrong. If the prophet was any good, then they won't need anyone who takes it upon himself to consciously fulfill them. Rhaegar did more or less the same thing as Melisandre with Stannis, although with different means. I am pretty sure cannot or should not try to breed the world's savior...

As to polygamy:

I don't think the Targaryens still knew or practiced Valyrian marriage rites, so that should not be a possibility for Rhaegar.

If Rhaegar's decision to take Lyanna as a second wife would have met any opposition - say, by Aerys, the Small Council, various lords, the Faithi etc. - those people could all have declared that it was either unlawful/impossible to have two wives, or that the rite Rhaegar chose to be married to Lyanna did not suffice for the Crown Prince. Marrying before a heart tree may be enough for a Northman, but not for a follower of the Faith. Even Ned and Cat married in a sept. And Rhaegat wanted to rule over quite a lot of Andals, all of which could have construed or considered the fact that he married not in a sept as heresy.

Refusing to recognize the crown prince's marriage, and subsequent heirs from said marriage, can be construed as treason. So, anyone who wanted to declare Rhaegar's second marriage illegal would have to be prepared to defend that position with force.

[Lord Varys]

Alicent Hightower was of another generation. She adopted the Targaryen identity, whereas Daeron II and Myriah Martell as well as Aegon V, his unknown queen, and the sons who married for love may have done the opposite.

From what we know about Egg, it seems that his life among the smallfolk and with Dunk caused him to reconsider the Targaryen outlook on incest. That should be the case with any other non-Valyrian woman marrying into the dynasty, as well as her husband, who did not enter into an incestuous marriage when he married her.

Alicent ins really a special case because he was the replacement for Viserys' first wife, a Targaryen on her mother's side, who desperately wanted her children to be real Targaryens.

There is no Stark incest in their recent history, just twa cousin marriages. That is completely normal for real world nobles, and should thus also be no big deal in Westeros. Real incest, on the other hand, is.

Oh, and yeah, Rhaegar can consider any challenges to his polygamous marriage treason. But that will cause a war, not prevent it. In fact, that is more or less what happened, although the marriage in itself was never ever openly addressed or discussed - although we don't really know that yet. Perhaps Brandon and Rickard knew something about it, and it came up prior to the 'trial-by-combat'?

[Ygrain]

From what we know about Egg, it seems that his life among the smallfolk and with Dunk caused him to reconsider the Targaryen outlook on incest.

And what is it that we know? All I recall is him mentioning casually that he might marry his sister as the custom was, and later on in ADWD that he married somebody else for love.

[Lord Varys]

Wasn't something about him becoming the champion of the smallfolk in the App? They abhor incest, if Dunk is any indication. Since I don't think Egg ever fell in love with Daella, it is very likely that he did not marry a sister. In fact, it may be that he decided to not marry a sister long before he met and fell in love with the woman he did marry.

[Ygrain]

Wasn't something about him becoming the champion of the smallfolk in the App? They abhor incest, if Dunk is any indication. Since I don't think Egg ever fell in love with Daella, it is very likely that he did not marry a sister. In fact, it may be that he decided to not marry a sister long before he met and fell in love with the woman he did marry.

You will excuse me but wanting to improve the lives of the smallfolk is in no way related to Egg's opinion of incest in his family. Him not wanting to marry his sister still doesn't mean that he came to abhor incest; he may have disliked Daella or simply had other ideas of his life partner.

Plus, while Dunk is originally shocked, he then does the "oh, Targaryen, rules don't apply" mental gymnastics.

[Lord Varys]

Well, but it's also already confirmed that Egg did arrange betrothals for all of sons. I don't think this refers to sisters, so we can reasonably assume that Egg's three sons were all promised to women who were not exactly related closely to the Targaryens.

And I'd also not bet that many of Myriah's sons were married to sisters. We don't even know whether there was another daughter besides Aelinor, and the whole Blackfyre Rebellion thing most likely forced Daeron to reward some of his loyalists with the hands of one of his sons (Rhaegel? - his twins are much younger than the elder sons of Baelor and Maekar) or grandsons (Valarr?).

We already know that Myriah and the Martells were considered to be very influential at court, so it is very likely that she had a say when the marriages of her children were discussed.

[Ygrain]

Well, but it's also already confirmed that Egg did arrange betrothals for all of sons. I don't think this refers to sisters, so we can reasonably assume that Egg's three sons were all promised to women who were not exactly related closely to the Targaryens.

And I'd also not bet that many of Myriah's sons were married to sisters. We don't even know whether there was another daughter besides Aelinor, and the whole Blackfyre Rebellion thing most likely forced Daeron to reward some of his loyalists with the hands of one of his sons (Rhaegel? - his twins are much younger than the elder sons of Baelor and Maekar) or grandsons (Valarr?).

We already know that Myriah and the Martells were considered to be very influential at court, so it is very likely that she had a say when the marriages of her children were discussed.

Incest doesn't secure you any political alliances. Pragmatic choice =/= abhorrence of incest.

- Mind you, he may have come to abhor incest but there is zero textual evidence that he actually did.

[Mithras]

Is Aerion's wife revealed anywhere? I am betting some money for a younger daugther of the original Dany.

[Lord Varys]

Not yet, but I'd be surprised if Maron assisted the Targaryens in their incest. In fact, Aerion would be a prime candidate for a Targaryen to enter into an incestuous marriage, due to his mad entitlement. We don't yet know what happened to Egg's sisters, and Prince Rhaegel could also have had a bunch of daughters before he died.

If Egg was already in trouble when he decided to arrange matches for his sons, then I don't really know how he could have won the Great Council. My guess is that he and his wife first decided that there would be no incest, then they brokered political marriages, which then were all broken by his sons. This then caused trouble, war, and death. Consequently, Egg lacked the allies he would have needed to reform the kingdom, which, in turn, may have been why he tried to restore the Targaryen dragons.

At least that was the vibe I got from the smallfolk champion stuff from the App.

[The guy from the Vale]

Incest doesn't secure you any political alliances. Pragmatic choice =/= abhorrence of incest.

- Mind you, he may have come to abhor incest but there is zero textual evidence that he actually did.

Even more so, it was Egg who ultimately decided that Aerys and Rhaella would have to marry. Which means that if anything, we have evidence against the idea that Egg abhorred incest.

[Ygrain]

Even more so, it was Egg who ultimately decided that Aerys and Rhaella would have to marry. Which means that if anything, we have evidence against the idea that Egg abhorred incest.

Not sure, was it Egg, or Jaehaerys?

[Lord Varys]

All we know is that Egg did not forbid the marriage between Aerys and Rhaella. We don't know if he approved of it, or believed the stuff the woods witch said. All we know for sure is that he did not prevent or forbid the marriage. That does not have to mean that he liked the whole idea, though...

[Attitude]

Hard to follow all this, since I haven't read any of the novels.

(are the novels considered part of common knowledge in this forum (or this part of the forum)? Since I've only read the books.)

[Consigliere]

Hard to follow all this, since I haven't read any of the novels.

(are the novels considered part of common knowledge in this forum (or this part of the forum)? Since I've only read the books.)

I'd say that the novellas are common knowledge on this board.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Not sure, was it Egg, or Jaehaerys?

Could the marriage have happened if only Jaehaerys,and not Egg, had agreed with the match? Egg was head of the family, and would have the divisive vote on such things, I'd say.

As to Daeron II/Myriah Martell, they also didn't seem to mind incest, as Aelinor and Aerys were siblings and married.