Michael Brown Shooting and Civil Unrest III

[davos]

Carry on

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Yeah, water cannon are probably much safer, and humane (though they can tear clothing and cause some serious damage to eyes and other sensitive parts of the head), but it carries quite a bit of emotional historic baggage (CNN anchor suggested this very idea.... Didn't go over well). In fact, I thought I had read something years back there is actually a law prohibiting the use of water cannon against crowds in the US...

Actually as I looked that up, it seems simply strongly discouraged, but not illegal.

Oh man. Scroll down a little bit in that link. The black anchor's reaction is priceless!

[TerraPrime]

I get that there are hihstoric resonance for the use of water canons, and we should respect that and be aware of that cultural baggage. But at the same time, this seems like a misguided transfer of anger because water canon was the tool, and the issue to be upset about is the uneven and unfair treatment of black/African-American citizens. Whether they use water canons or rubber bullets or tear gases, the issue remains the same. Criticizing the suggestion for cultural insensitivity is worthwhile, but I hope to see the conversation moving forward beyond that as well.

[aceluby]

I get that there are hihstoric resonance for the use of water canons, and we should respect that and be aware of that cultural baggage. But at the same time, this seems like a misguided transfer of anger because water canon was the tool, and the issue to be upset about is the uneven and unfair treatment of black/African-American citizens. Whether they use water canons or rubber bullets or tear gases, the issue remains the same. Criticizing the suggestion for cultural insensitivity is worthwhile, but I hope to see the conversation moving forward beyond that as well.

I agree. I think it also needs to be said that we should be better at not escalating protests into riots. Tear gas and war zones are not the answer.

Really, what's needed is more neighborhood outreach as prevention, not more military like responses as a cure.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Quick question. Was MB's body faced towards or away from the cops car?

[Relic]

Towards. There is a disturbing video of people gathering around the crime scene before anyone put a sheet over his body. People talking in the background apparently saw some of what happened. NSFW or your soul. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdL9dqkyjhM

[aceluby]

Quick question. Was MB's body faced towards or away from the cops car?

Both? The accounts are there was a tug of war in the car, a shot went off (possibly hitting MB in the chest and his first wound), MB turned and ran, Wilson got out and shot again and missed, MB turned around (either to surrender or attack the cop who is shooting at him, which simply doesn't make sense), and was then shot 5 more times from the front.

ETA: Just understood what you're actually asking and his dead body was faced towards the cop car.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Ace,

The accounts are there was a tug of war in the car,

You mean "cop" when you say car here, don't you?

[aceluby]

Ace,

You mean "cop" when you say car here, don't you?

No, the witnesses say that MB approached the vehicle (most likely as instructed) which led to a tug of war. One of the witnesses says they saw Wilson grab MB and pull him by the shirt closer to the vehicle, which was the 'tug of war' I'd guess, and heard Wilson say to MB "Do you want me to shoot you" and "I'm going to shoot you" (some heard 'kill') before shooting him from inside the car.

I'm just going by witness accounts, Wilson's statement is completely contradictory to these.

[TheKitttenGuard]

Both? The accounts are there was a tug of war in the car, a shot went off (possibly hitting MB in the chest and his first wound), MB turned and ran, Wilson got out and shot again and missed, MB turned around (either to surrender or attack the cop who is shooting at him, which simply doesn't make sense), and was then shot 5 more times from the front.

ETA: Just understood what you're actually asking and his dead body was faced towards the cop car.

I thought in the autospy statement that the parent's have done that nothing indicates that any wounds were from upclose. They also said no indication of him being shot in the back.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

I thought in the autospy statement that the parent's have done that nothing indicates that any wounds were from upclose. They also said no indication of him being shot in the back.

All they could determine was there were no wounds from shots fired within two feet. If he was wounded from behind it could have only been his arm. This probably means he wasn't hit during the struggle by the car.

I noticed one other thing. He got shot in the palm. That does lend some credibility, although is far from conclusive, that he might have had his hands up.

[TheKitttenGuard]

All they could determine was there were no wounds from shots fired within two feet. If he was wounded from behind it could have only been his arm. This probably means he wasn't hit during the struggle by the car.

I noticed one other thing. He got shot in the palm. That does lend some credibility, although is far from conclusive, that he might have had his hands up.

T/y for the clarification.

[Fragile Bird]

From a story about the independent autopsy:

The report is preliminary, and Dr. Baden and his team are looking to review the initial autopsy, including toxicology reports and the clothing Mr. Brown was wearing.

"What does this preliminary autopsy tell us, it verifies that the witness accounts were true," Mr. Crump said.

Attorneys for Mr. Brown's family said the preliminary autopsy report showed evidence that the teenager was trying to surrender and had his hands raised when he was shot.

"Those two things alone are ample evidence for this officer to be arrested," attorney Daryl Parks said.

Mr. Parks focused on the two shots that struck Mr. Brown in the head, which he said showed the "direction of the bullets was from the back to front."

Mr. Wilson couldn't be reached for comment.

Mr. Parcells, who aided Dr. Baden, said a key wound was from a bullet that hit the forehead right above the right eyebrow, and moved downward exiting near the jawline and grazing his chest. .

He said a wound on the arm was consistent with him walking away and then turning around, but also could have occurred while he was putting his hands up.

[Sansa's Bad Memory]

I think it bears mentioning that the officer had a broken eye socket from the beating he got from MB. Also, officers never tell people to "come to my car". It is viewed as a threat when they approach. It is day one training that you direct people away from your car.

[Andriy Czarchenko]

I think it bears mentioning that the officer had a broken eye socket from the beating he got from MB. Also, officers never tell people to "come to my car". It is viewed as a threat when they approach. It is day one training that you direct people away from your car.

There has been no evidence of any injury released. The picture that has been making rounds is from University of Iowa.

[Suttree]

I think it bears mentioning that the officer had a broken eye socket from the beating he got from MB.

It's been mentioned and apparently debunked. From the last thread.

Here are the symptoms of an orbital blowout fracture:

The most common symptoms are bruising, tenderness and swelling around the eye; redness of the eye; double vision, ordiplopia (seeing two images at the same time); numbness of the cheek, nose or teeth; nose bleeds (epistaxis) [see figure 1].

Symptoms that typically indicate a more serious injury are pain on eye movement, double vision, air under the skin around the eye, and numbness of the cheek/mouth/nose on the side of the injury. Severe trauma may cause facial bone fractures, injury to the eye itself, and injuries to the skull/brain.

In the video taken by an eyewitness immediately after the shooting, officer Darren Wilson is seen walking calmly around the body with no signs of discomfort or injury, even though by this time he would have been in very serious pain.

Also, no ambulance was called for Wilson, and no first aid was administered by other officers, which seems odd if he had indeed suffered this type of serious injury — or any injury at all.

And there’s more evidence that Hoft is trying to pull a fast one again; here is the original image posted at the AAPOS site, showing a CT scan of a blowout fracture (on the left), compared to the image posted at Gateway Pundit by Hoft (on the right):

Notice the difference? In the version posted by Jim Hoft, the text at bottom right that says “UNIV OF IOWA” has been crudely erased. Caught you, Jim.

Was Hoft trying to mislead his readers into thinking this was the actual X-ray (or CT scan) of Darren Wilson? His text does not make it clear it wasn’t Wilson’s CT scan — and the words “UNIV OF IOWA” have been blacked out, quite deliberately.

[Fragile Bird]

Aazbill148 - that eye in jury is apparently a rumour being circulated by a right wing blogger. The link is in the last thread in the last couple of pages.

ETA: ninja'd by Suttree who is much more energetic than me. :p

[Sansa's Bad Memory]

So, is it the assertion that there was absolutely no physical contact between the two before shots rang out?

[aceluby]

The only reason they determined there were no wounds from within 1-2 feet is because there wasn't residue on his skin. The police have the clothes and nothing has been released about residue on the clothing.

Also, from what I've read the 2nd autopsy thought that one of the wounds was back to front.

Very inconclusive still.

So, is it the assertion that there was absolutely no physical contact between the two before shots rang out?

Nothing from MB and unless there's some new evidence from the PD that they aren't releasing, there's no evidence of this from Wilson either.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Aazbill,

I don't think anyone knows with certainty. But the "broken eye socket" story does not appear to be true.