Heresy 132 The Wildlings

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 132 the latest edition of the thread that takes a sideways look at the Song of Ice and Fire.

Heresy is wide-ranging but largely about questioning popular assumptions that the Wall and the Nights Watch were created to keep the Others at bay - and that the story is going to end with Jon Snow being identified as both the lost Targaryen heir and as Azor Ahai.

As the story has progressed it’s become clear that nothing is as it seems and that there may be some truth in the old joke that it will not be Dany’s amazing dragons who save Westeros from the Others, but the Others who will help save Westeros from the dragons!

Heresy is about trying to figure out what’s really going on, by looking at clues in the text itself with an open mind, and by identifying GRRM’s own sources and inspirations, ranging from Celtic and Norse mythology such as the Cu Chulainn cycle, the Morrigan and the Mabinogion, all the way through to Narnia and the original Land of Always Winter, and perhaps ultimately to recognizing the Heart of Winter not as a place on a map but as Conrad’s Heart of Darkness, for in Westeros Winter and Darkness are one and the same.

Stepping into the world of Heresy might appear confusing, but we are engaged in an exercise in chaos theory. It’s about making connections, sometimes real sometimes thematic, between east and west, between the various beliefs and types of magick - and also about reconciling the dodgy timelines. While most threads in this forum concentrate on a particular issue, we therefore range pretty widely and more or less in free-fall, in an effort to try and reach an understanding of what may really be happening through the resulting collision of ideas. However, beyond the firm belief that things are not as they seem, there is no such thing as an accepted heretic view on Craster’s sons or any of the other topics, and the fiercest critics of some of the ideas discussed on these pages are our fellow heretics

A link to Heresy 100 follows, in which will be found essays on seven major topics in heresy, with a bonus essay on the Crows: http://asoiaf.wester...138-heresy-100/. Links are also provided at the end of each of the essays to the relevant discussion thread, and for those made of sterner stuff we also have a link to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy.

Those essays were a very successful project orchestrated by Mace Cooterian to celebrate the centennial edition, and by popular request we’re currently running a follow-up with five new topics for the five kings; and this one starting off with an essay by Wolfmaid is to look at the Wildlings.

Although as I said above, we normally operate in free-fall, the purpose of these special edition threads is that we concentrate on the chosen topic in hand. If there is a new and startling revelation by GRRM which needs to be laid before us, fair enough, but otherwise stick to the point and normal service will resume in due course.

Don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed over the years. We’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask, but be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour.

[Black Crow]

The Wildlings Part 1

Greetings all, and welcome to the second essay in the Heresy project. First off I thought this would be a straight forward piece, surprisingly I came out of it with more questions than answers. The Wildlings are a culture of depth and contradictions, this also extends to their relationship with the Wall and Winterfell and I suspect the reasons behind the above and more are lost somewhere in the stream of time, but hopefully together we can unearth some of the mysteries set before us regarding them .This topic is huge, so I chose to approach this essay differently by not talking a lot about the stuff we know, but focusing more on the “why” this is so.

Culture

The term Wildling is a derogatory name used to describe those that live in isolation beyond the Wall, no doubt the phrase arose from tales told by wet nurses like Old Nan whose stories predominantly perpetuate Southern imagery of Wildlings. Though people like the Flints have suffered on account of the Weeper. The problem ensues when the below behavior is viewed as a representation of Wildlings on a whole.

It's peaceful in my dungeons,” grumbled Old Flint. “Give the Weeping Man to me.”“How many rangers has the Weeper killed?” asked Othell Yarwyck. “How many women has he raped or killed or stolen? ”Three of mine own ilk,” said Old Flint. “And he blinds the girls he does not take (ADWD, Jon, 11).

“These are wildlings. Savages, raiders, rapers, more beast than man (ASOS,Jon,Chpt 7,pg 75).

He remembered the hearth tales Old Nan told them. The wildlings were cruel men, she said, slavers and slayers and thieves. They consorted with giants and ghouls, stole girl children in the dead of night, and drank blood from polished horns. And their women lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children. (Bran I, AGoT)

“So this is a wildling. Jon remembered Old Nan’s tales of the savage folk who drank blood from human skulls. Craster seemed to be drinking a thin yellow beer from a chipped stone cup. Perhaps he had not heard the stories (ACOK,Jon). (Jon you too funny)

Through Jon’s POV, we have learned that the Wildings in addition to having “their own kind of honor (ADWD,Jon) aren’t as uniformly cruel and savage as Southerners think. The Free Folk as they call themselves, comprise of village dwellers and several fractious tribes, which range from the reasonably refined to those that can be savagely hostile. You’ll find that some of them have a great dislike for the Night’s Watch and will kill a Crow unless they are a proven an Oathbreaker i.e Jon and Mance. Wildling Raiders will raid villages south of the Wall only to be chased off by the Watch for their troubles. Know though that not all Free Folk partake in the Raider lifestyle.

“Along with the Tormunds and the Longspears rode other sorts of wildlings, though; men like Rattleshirt and the Weeper who would as soon slit you as spit on you. There was Harma Dogshead, a squat keg of a woman with cheeks like slabs of white meat, who hated dogs and killed one every fortnight to make a fresh head for her banner; earless Styr, Magnar of Therm, whose own people thought him more god than lord,<snip>And there were folks fiercer even than Varamyr, from the northernmost reaches of the haunted forest, the hidden valleys of the Frostfangs, and even queerer places: the men of the Frozen Shore who rode in chariots made of walrus bones pulled along by packs of savage dogs, the terrible ice-river clans who were said to feast on human flesh, the cave dwellers with their faces dyed blue and purple and green. With his own eyes Jon had beheld the Hornfoot men trotting along in column on bare soles as hard as boiled leather (ASOS,Jon).”

Now, a dog can heard a flock of sheep, but free folk, well, some are shadowcats and some are stones. One kind prowls where they please and will tear your dogs to pieces. The other will not move at all unless you kick them (ADWD,Jon,chpt,21).

Do not confuse the Thenns with free folk. Magnar means lord in the Old Tongue, I am told, but Styr was closer to a god to his people, and his son is cut from the same skin. I do not require men to kneel, but they do need to obey (ADWD,Jon) .”

“The camp goes on forever, he reflected, but it’s more a hundred camps than one, and each more vulnerable than the last. Stretched out over long leagues, the wildlings had no defenses to speak of, no pits nor sharpened stakes, only small groups of outriders patrolling their perimeters. Each group or clan or village had simply stopped where they wanted, as soon as they saw others stopping or found a likely spot. The free folk (ASOS,Jon).”

"The free folk fear skinchangers, but they honor us as well. South of the Wall, the kneelers hunt us down and butcher us like pigs (ADWD Prologue-Haggon).

As you can tell from the above, within the Free Folk community there are clans that are NOT considered “Free Folk”.i.e Thenns and Skinchangers etc. For the most part the name Free Folk depicts a life style specific to you and yours and this is evident when you start peeling off the layers. These clans are free to be who they are within that idea of Free Folk, expressing it in distinct language and cultural practices to prove it. The preceding is interesting and worth noting because when you consider people like Val/Dalla,Tourmond ,Morna(Woods Witches),Skinchangers and Craster in comparison to the others, you begin to recognize that amongst the Free Folk they represent other faction(s) in a greater whole and that there isn’t really a homogenous Wildling culture. There are some shared similarities that are of importance; stealing a wife, guest rights and the ideology of being free; in the context of you live by no law but your own.

Points for discussion 1:

1. Wariness about Skinchangers among even the free folk. Honoring them as Haggon says gives me the sense that this was reverent fear.

2. Significance of the arm ring worn by Tourmond and Craster, but not Mance’s position denotes status. Status as what and why? Did Mance not need and arm ring because he had Dalla and she was all the status he needed?

3. Why didn’t Mance kill Craster like Tourmond suggested? (Relevant texts below).

“Craster’s sheepskin jerkin and cloak of sewn skins made a shabby contrast, but around one thick wrist was a heavy ring that had the glint of gold. ACOK, Jon”

Tourmond: “Mance I told you that creature needs to be shorter by a head (ACOK,Jon).”

"The free folk fear skinchangers, but they honor us as well. South of the Wall, the kneelers hunt us down and butcher us like pigs (ADWD Prologue-Haggon).

Description of Tourmond-“A short but immensely broad man sat on a stool, eating a hen off a skewer. Hot grease was running down his chin and into his snow-white beard, but he smiled happily all the same. Thick gold bands graven with runes bound his massive arms, (ACOK,Jon).

Description of Mance-The King-beyond-the-Wall looked nothing like a king, nor even much a wildling. He was of middling height, slender, sharp-faced, with shrewd brown eyes and long brown hair that had gone mostly to grey. There was no crown on his head, no gold rings on his arms, no jewels at his throat, not even a gleam of silver (ACOK,Jon).”

Tourmond’s titles, “Speaker to Gods and Father of Hosts. (ACOK,Jon)”

Tourmond: “Come, we start back. Mance grows sore wroth when I’m not found in my accustomed place (ASOS,Jon).” (His position was at the head of the column).

[Black Crow]

Points of discussion 2: Dangerous women

The role Wildling women play in their community is a great accomplishment. Unlike women in the south, some Free Folk women are also warriors called “Spearwives”. Going toe to toe and shoulder to shoulder with any man in battle; Spearwives are as common as ladies are in the South. In addition some women in the group seem to have positions of social and spiritual significance. Clan mothers were very common among the Free Folk .Plus Val and Dalla have a lot of clout not only socially but magically as well mirroring that of the Volva in the Northern Tradition. Val pretty much stole Jarl .Something we can gather by Mance referring to him as “Val’s latest pet” alluding that the power in the relationship doesn’t lie with him. She, Dalla and the women called “Woods witches” could walk anywhere without fear of being accosted. While there is patriarchy beyond the Wall in terms of a possible priesthood in the person of Tourmond,Styr (Thenns) and Craster. Make no mistake there is a Matriarchal priesthood operating covertly as well.Seeing as the maternal influence has been hinted over and over beyond the Wall, something tells me they will come into play later.

The warrior witch Morna removed her weirwood mask just long enough to kiss [Jon's] gloved hand and swear to be his man or his woman, whichever he preferred (ADWD, Chpt 58).

“Why did they wed if they did not love each other? Your grandsire commanded it. A woods witch had told him that the prince that was promised would be born of their line." "A woods witch?" Dany was astonished. "She came to court with Jenny of Oldstones. A stunted thing, grotesque to look upon. A dwarf, most people said, though dear to Lady Jenny, who always claimed that she was one of the children of the forest. ““What became of her?" "Summerhall. (Also,keep Woods witch in mind for later).

"Jon faced him. “If you’ve had the Horn of Joramun all along, why haven’t you used it? Why bother building turtles and sending Therns to kill us in our beds? If this horn is all the songs say, why not just sound it and be done?” It was Dalla who answered him, Dalla great with child, lying on her pile of furs beside the brazier. “We free folk know things you kneelers have forgotten. Sometimes the short road is not the safest, Jon Snow. The Homed Lord once said that sorcery is a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it.”

Har!” laughed Tormund Giantsbane. “Don't bandy words with this one, Lord Snow, she's too clever for the likes o' you and me. Best steal her quick, before Toregg wakes up and takes her first.”

What had that oaf Axell Florent said of Val? “A nubile girl, not hard to look upon. Good hips, good breasts, well made for whelping children.” All true enough, but the wildling woman was so much more. She had proved that by finding Tormund where seasoned rangers of the Watch had failed. She may not be a princess, but she would make a worthy wife for any lord.

But that bridge had been burned a long time ago, and Jon himself had thrown the torch. “Toregg is welcome to her,” he announced. “I took a vow.”

“She won't mind. Will you, girl?”

Val patted the long bone knife on her hip. “Lord Crow is welcome to steal into my bed any night he dares. Once he's been gelded, keeping those vows will come much easier for him.”(Jon XI, ADwD)

Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold.(ADWD,Jon XI).

Völva connection.

All free Norse and Germanic women were expected to be versed in magic, but some women more so than others. Most of the Germanic tribes, as well as the Vikings, nurtured groups of wise women, witches or priestesses who usually lived unmarried (though not necessarily in celibacy), and who could, it appears, travel alone wherever they liked without fear(Like Val and Dalla). A woman who carried the wand of the witch would never be harmed. They were allied with the fate goddesses and thus wielded the greatest of powers. In the Viking Age Norse context, these women were called the völur, singular völva. The literal translation of this title is “Wand-Wed” or “Staff-Carrier” (The Northern Tradition).

The King beyond the Wall

I like to think looking at the Free Folk and their way of life is a snap shot into what the First Men were like thousands of years ago. For like the FM, the Free Folk spend much of their time fighting one another over petty nonsense, but there are times whereby they set these differences aside to unify behind a King-Beyond-the-Wall. And herein lies the first contradictive aspect I wish to address about the Wildlings.

Probably the major difference between the Free Folk and those south of the Wall is that seemingly Free Folk do not recognize hereditary nobility in their society. They are very proud of that status and even make jokes about Southern proclivity for kneeling to any man, hence the name “Kneelers”. The Wildlings do not kneel, especially to one they chose themselves. This is a monumental achievement by the Free Folk as the idea of not Kneeling to a leader (internally and physically) “you the people elected” is the first sign of Democracy we have seen period. Mance is just Mance, nothing but the man they elected best suited to get them from point A to B. At the end of this story I think this will be one of the Free Folk major contributions to Westeros.

Tourmond to Jon: “You can kneel to him if you like, he won’t mind. I know your kneeler’s knees must be itching, for want of some king to bend to (ASOS,Jon).

Mance and Ygritte have stated many times and Jon’s stint with the Wildings taught him that Free Folk follow who they want. They follow strength, to look deeper strength is survival.

“And then Halleck. “I don’t like you, crow,” he growled, “but I never liked the Mance neither, no more’n my sister did. Still, we fought for him. Why not fight for you?”The dam broke then. Halleck was a man of note. Mance was not wrong. “Free folk don’t follow names, or little cloth animals sewn on a tunic,” the King-Beyond-the-Wall had told him. “They won’t dance for coins, they don’t care how you style yourself or what that chain of office means or who your grandsire was. They follow strength. They follow the man (ADWD,Jon).”

“Gerrick is the true and rightful king of the wildlings,” the queen said, “descended in an unbroken male line from their great king Raymun Red-beard, whereas the usurper Mance Rayder was born of some common woman and fathered by one of your black brothers.”

No, Jon might have said, Gerrick is descended from a younger brother of Raymun Redbeard. To the free folk that counted about as much as being descended from Raymun Redbeard's horse. They know nothing, Ygritte. And worse, they will not learn. (Jon XIII, ADwD).

When Tourmond heard how Queen Selsye tried to force that Southern idea,he shot that down real quick.

“King o' the Wildlings?” Tormund roared. “Har! King o' My Hairy Butt Crack, more like (Jon XIII, ADwD).

You don't become King-beyond-the-Wall because your father was. The free folk won't follow a name, and they don't care which brother was born first. They follow fighters. When I left the Shadow Tower there were five men making noises about how they might be the stuff of kings. Tormund was one, the Magnar another. The other three I slew, when they made it plain they'd sooner fight than follow (ASOS,Jon,5).

Even though the Free Folk profess distain for a monarchy or conforming to such, it is strange that in their history we’ve seen 5 prior Kings .For this reason I think it’s prudent to ask why this is so and under what conditions do this King come into play? My theory is that the KBTW positon is a temporary necessity to get the Free Folk as a people where? You guessed it over the Wall, but at a certain time. Mance defeated other prospects for this title, telling us the Free Folk were going to head south no matter what as there was a choosing, so the KBTW position is predicated on a point in time where such a person had to be chosen in order to accomplish leading the Free Folk south; on account of some impending event of epic proportion.

This is very reminiscent of Gorean Philosophy which has a lot in common with the Free Folk, especially when it comes to their notion of laws and freedom -To do as you will. However, of interest is the Gorean concept behind the Ubar .The Ubar is a leader, or General that emerges to take power ONLY at times of crisis, and whose rule is tantamount to that figure head until the crisis is resolved, then business as usual. We know this concept has truth in ASOIAF for Mance’s purpose was to seek sanctuary for him and the Free Folk behind the Wall (it’s probably was his main campaign promise to the Wildlings) but there is no doubt that would be the extent of his role based on Free Folk ideology. He would not be expected to have that title as King after that.But we know what the event is that started the “Free Folk” migration south.

"You can kill your enemies," Jon said bluntly, "but can you rule your friends? If we let your people pass, are you strong enough to make them keep the king's peace and obey the laws?"

"Whose laws? The laws of Winterfell and King's Landing?" Mance laughed. "When we want laws we'll make our own. You can keep your king's justice too, and your king's taxes. I'm offering you the horn, not our freedom. We will not kneel to you (ASOS,Jon)."

“Treat?” Tormund laughed. “Now there’s a word. Har! Mance wants to talk, that’s true enough.

Can’t say he’d want to talk with you, though.”

“I’m the one they’ve sent.”…………..

“I’ve come with my tail between my legs to hide behind your Wall (ASOS,Jon,53).”

[Black Crow]

Points of discussion

Why the repeated Wildling invasion attempts?

“Wildlings have invaded the realm before.” Jon had heard the tales from Old Nan and Maester Luwin both, back at Winterfell. “Raymun Redbeard led them south in the time of my grandfather’s grandfather, and before him there was a king named Bael the Bard.” “Aye, and long before them came the Horned Lord and the brother kings Gendel and Gorne, and in ancient days Joramun, who blew the Horn of Winter and woke giants from the earth. Each man of them broke his strength on the Wall or was broken by the power of Winterfell on the farside (ACOK,Jon 5).”

“Raymun Redbeard, Bael the Bard, Gendel and Gorne, the Horned Lord, they all came south to conquer, but I’ve come with my tail between my legs to hide behind your Wall (ASOS,Jon,53).”

As we all know, the above are names of KBTW’s who have attempted to or crossed the Wall. But given the hostility towards Kneelers and what they stand for, given the fact that the Wildlings are self-sufficient and have enjoyed continuous trade with the Watch, even traded with ships docking at places like Eastwatch. They have lived the life they wanted as “Free folk” so what’s the deal invading? Mance said that the other kings came to conqueror, a statement I don’t believe for obvious reasons, it goes against how they act and what they believe. So there was something else happening and I ask what external event would cause the “Free Folk” to unify behind a King (5times) to head over the Wall into the system they hate? Why were they going south at all? The only point of reference we have is what’s happening now with the Free Folk and during the NK’s reign, specifically something regarding Others.

“Giants and worse than giants, Lordling. I tried to tell your brother when he asked his questions, him and your maester and that smiley boy Greyjoy “The cold winds are rising, and men go out from their fires and never come back ... or if they do, they're not men no more, but only wights, with blue eyes and cold black hands. Why do you think I run south with Stiv and Hali and the rest of them fools? (AGOT,Chpt 53 Bran).

The above is the only event that is factual and has precedence to be the driving force behind the Wildlings mass movement south. Thus it is safe to conclude that in 8,000yrs this event has happened 5times, so the position of KBTW while not hereditary is periodical for the purpose of forced migration when the Others are on the march. Which would make this the 6^th cycle of such a migration. How do they know when it’s time to move? In light of the below quote, the fact that Mance had to defeat others meant that like I said it was time to head south and contenders were contesting for this position. Mance’s inner circle, some among the Free Folk knew the signs well enough to advise Mance. Hell even Winterfell and the Wall by way of Winterfell knew the signs, but overtime this may have become empty words.

“Mance had spent years assembling this vast plodding host, talking to this clan mother and that magnar, winning one village with sweet words and another with a song and a third with the edge of his sword, making peace between Hanna Dogshead and the Lord o’ Bones, between the Hornfoots and the Nightrunners, between the walrus men of the Frozen Shore and the cannibal clans of the great ice rivers, hammering a hundred different daggers into one great spear, aimed at the heart of the Seven Kingdoms”(ASOS,Jon).

So we can see that while the Wall and the South were oblivious Mance had already spent years “politicking” based on signs that were showing up. If it wasn’t for Jon, the Wall might have awoken to find Wildlings at the gates. As in the case of Raymun.

“Raymun who had been King-Beyond-the-Wall in the days of his grandfather's grandfather. Jack Musgood had been the lord commander in those days. Jolly Jack, he was called before Redbeard came down upon the north; Sleepy Jack, forever after. Raymun's host had met a bloody end on the shores of Long Lake, caught between Lord Willam of Winterfell and the Drunken Giant, Harmond Umber. Red-beard had been slain by Artos the Implacable, Lord Willam's younger brother. The Watch arrived too late to fight the wildlings, but in time to bury them, the task that Artos Stark assigned them in his wroth as he grieved above the headless corpse of his fallen brother.(Jon II, ADwD)

So what is the sign you’re talking about Wolfie? One particular phrase keeps popping up, we heard it from Osha, Qhorin and the Starks themselves. The Cold Winds Are Rising. Basically from the Wall, a Wildling and Winterfell. We see movements like the Widlings in nature, thousands of animals at top speed across the Serengeti. Snakes and other borrowing animals scampering from their holes. Rats fleeing the Subways in New York. Wildfire,Fire Ants,Earthquakes,Floods all had signs; smoke, subtle shifts that caused these animals into a forced migration because they discern the signs that told them something was coming. I have no doubt the “wise women” of the Free Folk were able to advise the community on a whole hence the emergence of the hopefuls; Mance among them.

The Others explains why the Wildlings have retained the knowledge of burning their dead; if it’s happened periodically it would be ingrained in the culture .Also, why there has been 5 Kings beyond the Wall. They were running then as they are running now. You may be asking why we haven’t heard this. My answer is I’m sure they were reports written off as tales by Wildlings .Would it really be taken as anything else but stories? I.e Osha tried to warn Robb about the Others and was dismissed completely.

I was born up there, child, like my mother and her mother before her and her mother before her, born of the Free Folk. We remember." <snip>. "I tried to tell your lordling brother. Only yesterday, when I saw him in the yard. <snip> but he looked through me<snip>. So be it. I'll wear my irons and hold my tongue. A man who won't listen can't hear."

“Tell me, Robb will listen to me I know he will”.

“Will he now? We'll see. You tell him this, m'lord. You tell him he's bound on marching the wrong way. Its north he should be taking his swords. North, not south. You hear me? (AGOT,Bran,chpt,53)."

Stories told to the watch in the early hours may have been dismissed, until it was too much for even them to ignore. In the past they may not have cared to question any Wildling once they saw them at the Wall, what mattered was that in their minds, the realm was threatened. This time so many things were in the Watches favor of being warned particularly the dead Rangers raising on the Wall. Some assumptions were that the WWs planted the NW members to be found. But we had not considered the Wildlings may have killed and planted the bodies knowing that they would rise and the Watch would be aware that this is happening. This was a message indeed, but we shouldn’t dismiss this as a message orchestrated by Mance and Co because Mormon’t believes Mance would not dare do such a thing so close to the Wall.

“A great gash in the side of the corpse’s neck opened like a mouth, crusted with dried blood. Only a few ropes of pale tendon still attached the head to the neck. “This was done with an axe.” “Aye,” muttered Dywen, the old forester. “Belike the axe that Othor carried, m’lord. His hands were black like Jafer’s. Blossoms of hard cracked blood decorated the mortal wounds that covered him like a rash, breast and groin and throat. Yet his eyes were still open. “The wildlings have axes too.”

Mormont rounded on him. “So you believe this is Mance Rayder’s work? This close to the

Wall?” “Who else, my lord? (AGOT, Jon, Chpt, 52).”

[Black Crow]

Real world parallel:

The idea that the world goes through extinction cycles is a part of every major culture from the Mayans to the Celts. Since the 1930”s Scientists believed the earth was an extinction path and by analyzing gaps in fossils they have determined that we are heading toward our 6^th cycle of extinction. A period in time where the world resets by destroying the Old World. This usually ends in either fire or ice but the resulting is new and stronger best suited for the world that is to be.A remnant is always prepared for survival.

Relationships with the Wall and Winterfell

“Only fools like Thoren Smallwood despise the wildlings. They are as brave as we are, Jon. As strong, as quick, as clever. But they have no discipline.”

My brothers feared I might die before they got me back to Maester Mullin at the Shadow Tower, so they carried me to a wildling village where we knew an old wise woman did some healing (ASOS,Jon,6).

Mormont: “If the gods are good Craster’d still there (ACOK, Jon,pg355)

“Thoren Smallwood swore that Craster is a friend to the watch, despite his unsavory reputation”

“He gives his sons to the wood”…..”Yes”

“You knew?”

“All the Rangers know”

“Yet it would be an ill day for us if Craster died. Your uncle could tell you of the times Craster’s keep made the difference between life and death for our Rangers (pg. 375)

“Haggon traded a dozen strings of amber and a sled piled high with pelts for six skins of wine, a block of salt, and a copper kettle. Eastwatch was a better place to trade than Castle Black; that was where the ships came, laden with goods from the fabled lands beyond the sea. The crows knew Haggon as a hunter and a friend to the Night’s Watch, and welcomed the news he brought of life beyond their Wall (ADWD,Prologue).

“It would be good to feel warm again, though it made him sad to think that he would never see the green lands, the warm lands beyond the Wall that Mance used to sing about (ADWD, Prologue, V6).

Here to me is proof that after so many failures of other Kings, Mance sweet songs may have convinced the Free Folk he was the one to get them South.

For most a year they searched, till the lord lost heart and took to his bed, and it seemed as though the line o' Starks was at its end. But one night as he lay waiting to die, Lord Brandon heard a child's cry. He followed the sound and found his daughter back in her bedchamber, asleep with a babe at her breast (Jon VI, ACoK)

From the above, we see that seasoned members of the watch have an understanding with some, not all the Wildlings. It seems there is a difference with what the South knew and what the seasoned members of the Watch knew and accepted concerning the Wildlings. They got help in the wild so many times in the form of medicine, and shelter. The Watch even after years of knowing Craster left his sons out in the woods allowed him to do it without intervening. How would Ned have reacted had he known Benjen had knowledge of this?

Next, the text doesn’t say if he was KBTW at that time, but it said in Joramun’s day the Wildlings were either broken on the Wall or by Winterfell on the other side, and according to Old Nan’s story Joramun was the KBTW that joined forces with the SIWF against the NK to bring him down and free the Watch. Two incidences, an invasion and help for the SIWF all happening around the time of Joramun.This leads me to believe that a shift occurred around that time. I also have a hunch that Joramun was the very first KBTW as a result of whatever debacle went down.

Lastly, the story of Bael the Bard tells us that Winterfell is also connected to the Wildlings by blood (Keep thought for later).

Points for discussion:

a. A relationship between Winterfell and the KBTW had to have been in effect for SIWF and Joramun to coordinate with each other to back door the NK. It may not have been unusual at that time crossing the Wall as long as the Lord of the crossing was satisfied with why you were crossing. He was an autonomous figure.

b. After the NK’s fall could the Wildling King (Joramun) have been double crossed and the gates closed permanently against crossing?

c. Were these 3 positions meant to work together ( SIWF,Lord of the Crossing/NK, KBTW) in concert?

The parley between Jon and Mance mirrors the Lord of the Crossing game which I believe has some historical significance with the Wall and the Wildlings being across and who was allowed to pass when and why.

Note: See rules of the Lord of the Crossing game for a mental. I believe this game is has insight into what happened.

The game must be played on some sort of bridge placed over water of some sort. One player, the "lord of the crossing," stands in the middle of the bridge with a staff. When another player approaches, the lord of the crossing must say "I am the lord of the crossing, who goes there?" The player who approached must then present his reasons for crossing the bridge and why he should be allowed to cross. The lord asks the player questions and makes them swear oaths. The player does not have to respond truthfully to the questions but the oaths are binding unless the player says "Mayhaps" quickly enough that the lord does not notice. Then the player must attempt to knock the lord off the bridge. The lord can knock a player into the water at any time, and he is the only one armed with a staff. Only when the lord is displaced can another player become lord, but only if they said mayhaps in the game, otherwise it means immediate disqualification (ACOK,Bran 4).

Purpose and Origin:

So how did the Free Folk come to be and what is there purpose in all this? Simply answered The Wall, The Wall presents some contradictions which may yield answers to the Wildling question. Some idea floated around here at one point was that the Free Folk were abandoned, and I thought this to. I have concluded though that this too don’t make sense. So the Wall is 300 miles long, by 700ft high we know this was not always so. In an SSM George stated that:

“The Wall took hundreds of years to build and Thousands of years to reach its current height”

One has to ask, how do you “leave” a bunch of people in a frozen place and ensure they all stay there and not come over while the Wall is going up? Furthermore, why the heck will you stay and not leave when you realize hey “these frackers are putting up a Wall and we are on the wrong side. How do you force them to stay while the Wall is being erected?

Lastly, and this is a doozy .Are we expected to believe that the Free Folk were comfortable staying where everything that supposedly hates humanity was banished to? Really?

Points of discussion:

a. Are the Free Folk descendants of hostages or descendants of tributes?

b. Did people volunteer to go for some yet unknown reason or were tricked somehow into going and staying until the reasons why faded from memory?

c. Are they a transplant people harvested and pushed back south in time for winter so that humanity has a remnant that survives the coming winter. Only to have some seeded back in the North of the Wall again in time for the next cycle?

d. Were they the ones that were saved by being preserved north of the Wall?

The Free Folk being abandoned north isn’t a plausible answer people don’t just “allow” themselves to be left behind when they could very well not. The age of heroes was the perfect time to have a few people here and there go over .I suspect one of the above as the reason there is such a people as the free folk. Whatever it maybe it’s hard to ignore that this isolation has ensured the continued existence of the First Men bloodline.

Wildling blood and the bloodline of Winterfell

When it has to do with the knowledge the “Free Folk” possess I admit bafflement by what I consider secretive teases, but moreso “why” it was important that they retain the knowledge of certain stories and songs. The story of Bael the Bard and the rose of Winterfell is one such story. First I would like to highlight a shift in the language George chose to use when it comes to Jon’s bastardry. Below Jon tells Ygritte that he is a bastard and that his father was Eddard Stark of Winterfell. Ygritte assumed that Jon would know the story of Bael and the winter rose because he was as she termed him “The” Bastard of Winterfell. Jon never said he was the only one, but by just changing how she termed him gave a connotative meaning that it is important.

I asked you to remember that the Free Folk is made up of factions and not all these factions are Free Folk. So amidst the Lyanna/Rheagar love affair comparison to the Bael the Bard story, something in the tale has gone unnoticed. Though Wildings in general do not recognize hereditary nobility in terms of territorial Kingship the way certain women are treated doesn’t mean that they don’t recognize “magical nobility”. Not in the patriarchal sense but the matriarchal. The emphasis placed on the importance of the blood of the FM in relation to the Starks convinces me a bloodline from beyond the Wall was intentionally grafted into the Stark lineage through a Bastard seed that was sown via the matriarchal line. I believe in an effort to bridge beyond the Wall with Winterfell and secure an unbroken magical line.

I notice like the Volva priestesses the “wise women” of the Free Folk operate outside of any hierarchical structure, they have a lot of autonomy and command a certain respect by just being. Further looking at Val and Dalla’s speech and the way they carry themselves tells me they have some kind of training. I am reminded of the Wildling way of getting a mate (Stealing) which we see in the NK, Bael and even Lyanna and Rheagar incidences and I don’t think this is a coincidence but a ritual to ensure that a link by blood was maintained in Winterfell. I will say this Jon’s importance as “The Bastard” of Winterfell can be viewed as him being the true heir of its magical inheritance.

As it is through that bastard line was Winterfell saved from extinction. In the case of (X+L=J) I ask you to consider this. A lot of emphasis is placed on Rheagar as the mastermind behind these events but this all started with the Woods Witch. She set Jaeherys and Rheagar on this path with her prophecy. Woods Witches are common in the Seven Kingdom and beyond the Wall. So we have no idea where she came from, she could have come from beyond the Wall. Again, I can’t help feeling there is a faction amongst the Free Folk that has been playing a long game with bloodlines. So in the end the unbroken Stark Matriarchal line is like a bouillabaisse and we may need to consider that setting the Targs on the path of fulfilling this prophecy was a matter of skillful maneuvering on a faction beyond the Wall’s part.

We see this also with Craster’s Keep another Free Folk faction with their own practices etc. Despite the fact that we see an overt patriarchy what I call a figure head it is the matriarchal line that remains unbroken. Craster is dead and the women are free to sing a siren song for any passerby and a new seed donor would be in the house. In the end though the female line remains intact.

Points of discussion

1. Mance said he met Dalla on his way back from Winterfell was that meeting coincidental?

2. What can we deduce about the She-wolves of Winterfell and any matriarchal order?

3. Could such a long standing plan have been hatched beyond the Wall?

4. Lord Stark disses Bael and Bael’s answer was to basically save the Stark line from extinction by knocking up the daughter? Really?

You will have heard stories of my desertion, I have no doubt.” “Some say it was for a crown. Some say for a woman. Others that you had the wildling blood.” “The wildling blood is the blood of the First Men, the same blood that flows in the veins of the Starks.

Mance made it a point as he stated to make note of all Eddard Starks children and the Wolf pups that ran with them.He also made note to remember Jon partuclarly,the fact that Wildling “women” perpetuated this tale amongst them and Winterfell knew nothing about it tells me that it is important.

“I gave you my name.”

“I’m Jon Snow.”

She flinched. “An evil name.”

“A bastard name,” he said. “My father was Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell.”(ACOK,Jon 5)

“You said you were the Bastard o’ Winterfell.” ………………. “And she never sung you the song o’ the winter rose?”

The singer rose to his feet. “I’m Mance Rayder,” he said as he put aside the lute. “And you are

Ned Stark’s bastard, the Snow of Winterfell.”

“Would you like to keep your eye, Jon?” asked the King-beyond-theWall. “If so, tell me how many they were. And try and speak the truth this time, Bastard of Winterfell.”

For most a year they searched, till the lord lost heart and took to his bed, and it seemed as though the line o' Starks was at its end. But one night as he lay waiting to die, Lord Brandon heard a child's cry. He followed the sound and found his daughter back in her bedchamber, asleep with a babe at her breast (Jon VI, ACoK).

Miscellaneous:

Ok Wolfmaid hold your horses, you have to forge a link beyond the Wall to anything out East for us to even entertain what you are insinuating. In the series we have come across phrases that are distinctly Valyrian in origin, I’m not even going to make any assumptions about the following. It’s one of those things as a group we might want to hash out with respect to what this could mean overall. The Valyrian phrase uttered a fair amount of times; Valar morghulis translation “All men must die” as well as “Fire and Blood” which seems to be a Targ combo has been found among the people who have lived in isolation beyond the Wall. On a whole it’s not just the phrases but it’s a whole connection to the East that is being drawn.

“And she sewed up the rents in my cloak as well, with some scarlet silk from Asshai that her grandmother had pulled from the wreck of a cog washed up on the Frozen Shore (ASOS,Jon,6).

“Why did they wed if they did not love each other? Your grandsire commanded it. A woods witch had told him that the prince that was promised would be born of their line." "A woods witch?" Dany was astonished.”

“How did you like the song, lad?”

“Well enough. I’d heard it before.”

“But what does it matter, for all men must die,” the King-beyond-the-Wall said lightly, “and I’ve tasted the Dornishman’s wife (ASOS,Jon,5).

When Bran repeated that to Osha, she laughed aloud. “Your wolves have more wit than your maester,” the wildling woman said. “They know truths the grey man has forgotten.” The way she said it made him shiver, and when he asked what the comet meant, she answered, “Blood and fire, boy, and nothing sweet. (ACOK ,Bran I).

You're mine," she whispered. "Mine, as I'm yours. And if we die, we die. All men must die, Jon Snow. But first, we'll live (ASOS,Jon,pg 464).”

Points of discussion

1. Was it only red silk pulled from the Cog that came from Asshai, how long ago was it found? Note she is of the Woods Witch order.

2. How do we explain phrases associated with Valyria across the Wall among the Wildlings? BR?

3. Is the author trying to make an association, or is it just coincidence?

Closing thoughts

I think it’s important to understand how clan diversity is imperative when looking at the Free Folk. In fact we do ourselves an injustice by looking at them as “one” people. From my research I’ve concluded that the Free Folk being beyond the Wall was for a reason other than just being left there. That the emergence of KBTW says that the Others caused a force migration a total of 6times and that something happened that changed the relationship between the Wildlings,the Wall and Winterfell. That the bond the Wildlings forged to Winterfell via the Matriarchal line through a bastard seemed intentional when Bael did it and it seems intentional with Jon. I don’t know what to make or I’m un-willing to speculate about the Valyrian phrases in such a remote local or what this may mean but ultimately it comes down to that female line and the fact that there may be a “magical nobility” stewarded by a Priest/ess hood that extends from a Wildling faction that operates outside of the everyday Free Folk. I do know that a lot of people benefit from this possible connection including the Old Races. Thank you guys and I look forward to the discussion.

[Frey family reunion]

Points for discussion 1:

1.

2. Significance of the arm ring worn by Tourmond and Craster, but not Mance’s position denotes status. Status as what and why? Did Mance not need and arm ring because he had Dalla and she was all the status he needed?

3.

As to point 2: Mance appears to be the one giving out the golden arm rings, from Varamyr's POV:

It was snowing, and Varamyr had lost his own cloaks at the Wall. His sleeping pelts and woolen smallclothes, his sheepskin boots and fur lined gloves, his store of mead and hoarded food, the hanks of hair he took from the women he bedded, even the golden arm rings Mance had given him, all lost and left behind.

For what it's worth, golden arm rings or bands were worn by the Golden Company and the number of arm rings denoted the number of years in service to the Golden Company.

[alienarea]

Some remarks:

1)

What is strange is that apparently Raymund Redbeard and his army were able to cross the wall unnoticed by the Nightwatch, only to be defeated by the Lord of Winterfell and an Umber at Long Lake.

Either a lot of them climbed the wall (with horses?) or someone opened a gate.

2)

Is Morna Woods Witch a she-male (hermaphrodite)?

3)

It sounds a lot like Loolapalooza or Burning Man.

4)

It does not make any sense for Mance to become King-beyond-the-wall unless someone was pulling the strings (Val, Bloodraven, Craster ...)

[wolfmaid7]

As to point 2: Mance appears to be the one giving out the golden arm rings, from Varamyr's POV:

For what it's worth, golden arm rings or bands were worn by the Golden Company and the number of arm rings denoted the number of years in service to the Golden Company.

I thought Tourmond got his from his father who got it from his father,i don't know where Craster got his? Doing a bit of research the arm rings in Celtic culture (correct me if i'm wrong) and a few others denotes status and a fair few as priests. In the Gregorean way it validates you as head of "home stone" or day to day rituals.

[Frey family reunion]

I thought Tourmond got his from his father who got it from his father,i don't know where Craster got his? Doing a bit of research the arm rings in Celtic culture (correct me if i'm wrong) and a few others denotes status and a fair few as priests. In the Gregorean way it validates you as head of "home stone" or day to day rituals.

No you're correct Tormund's rings appear hereditary in nature but they also appear to be different than Craster's and I would suspect different that Varamyr as well. I suspect the golden rings denote a certain bloodline. And if I had to guess I think Tormund's title as Father of Hosts is a clue. Perhaps Varamyr and Craster have been identified with a special bloodline as well.

And I'll have to go back and check but I think Rodrik Cassel may have mentioned taking a golden ring (perhaps an arm ring?) off of the first Reek when Reek was disguised as Ramsay.

ETA: for what it's worth Odin was also known for his golden arm rings called Draupnir. They had the magical ability to replicate themselves.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

First off, I have to say: Terrific essay, Wolfmaid! You and TBC are about to send me back to the drawing board to do a rewrite - partly to bulk things up, and partly just to incorporate all the connections I see with your ideas. Though there is at least one connection that's already been made, and I could only nod my head and smile when I saw you tie in THE GRAFT:

...a bloodline from beyond the Wall was intentionally grafted into the Stark lineage through a Bastard seed that was sown via the matriarchal line...

Not to get too far ahead of myself here, but you'll definitely be seeing more discussion of this concept in the near future - and it can certainly be extended here. Without getting all the way to grafting, however - and I'll probably save most of my thoughts on that particular concept for the next thread - there is another access point into Martin's garden metaphor that simply must be taken into consideration here. I've discussed it before in other settings, but here it really comes front and center for our discussion. The image I have in mind, of course, involves a particular set of definitions related to your topic:

THE WILDLING (n.)

• A plant that grows wild or has escaped from cultivation,especially a wild apple tree or its fruit;
• (Botany) an uncultivated plant, esp the crab apple, or a cultivated plant that has become wild

Given Martin's admitted "gardener" style (as an author), "wildling" is a word that suggests a certain relationship, and a particular history, between those "inside" and those "outside" the protection of the Wall. In fact, Martin's word choice pushes us to envision the Wall as "a garden wall" protecting cultivated family trees, fruits and flowers from exposure to the elements. It's even tempting to consider the word kneeler a possible synonym for farmhand, planter, or nurseryman. The wildling, having escaped the protection of the enclosed garden, self-reliant and trusting only his (her) own strength for survival - must see those inside the garden enclosure as doubly weak. Not only do they kneel to the authority of other men as "kings," but through that very act - kneeling, in the garden - they nurture, raise, and support rulers who might otherwise prove too tender (too "green") to stand on their own.

I noticed again recently that Martin uses the word wildling elsewhere in his story - with reference to another people, separate from those beyond the Wall. It is also used to identify the clansmen befriended by Tyrion in the Vale of Arryn, the Mountains of the Moon. Outsiders, for sure, and they share their First Men roots with those north of the Wall. But that leaves me wondering... does the analogy extend to other groups living "outside" the garden? House Greyjoy's motto is "We Do Not Sow." ("We Do Not Garden?") And the words of House Arryn - "High as Honor" - might symbolically explain its inability to grow weirwoods in the stony garden at the Eyrie. Even Illyrio Mopatis - across the Narrow Sea - displays the same disdain toward Westerosi household banners that Mance attributes to the wildlings:

"Free folk don't follow names, or little cloth animals sewn on a tunic..." - Mance

"You Westerosi are all the same. You sew some beast upon a scrap of silk, and suddenly you are all lions or dragons or eagles. I can take you to a real lion..." - Illyrio

Meanwhile, Westeros is chock full of orchards, gardens and gardeners, including the Arbor, High Garden, (the now extinct) House Gardener, Fossoway Apples (both red and green), House Stark, and even a Stone Garden (at Casterly Rock). And from the perspective of these "insiders," ironmen and wildlings are inevitably characterized as raiders or reapers - breaching the garden wall to steal their women (flowers) and children (fruit), cutting down their young men (valuable harvest) in the process.

[OberynBlackfyre]

Touching on what was being said in the last Heresy thread, I think it's wrong to think of AAR in a "negative" sense. I don't think he is all hero, but when he DID act as a fire agent, it was to save the world from darkness aka the ICE.

What is also intermingling here is the story of the Last Hero which VERY VERY closely resembles AA. IN this case the LH uses weapons of fire based magic to help temper the balance due to the Ice running a-muk basically.

I think it's also interesting to note that when asked if there had been more dragons in older times GRRM stated "At one point and time the world had been filled with dragons."

Does that mean that the "dragon age" has already come and gone....and if so, what changed that? A possible balance/ infusion of Ice?

[OberynBlackfyre]

More to the topic.....I always am curious about Crasters ancestry. How exactly did he obtain "Crasters Keep"? Did he build it? How so? Also how did he find out about the exchange of sons witht he White Walkers in order for safety? Is this a common Wildling tradition? IF it is....why don't more wildlings do it so they stay safe? I mean they didn't seem to WANT to come down South of the Wall until they absolutely had to. I think there is absolutely something funny about the bloodlines of at least a COUPLE wildlings we've seen. Mainly:

-Tormund.

-Val

-Craster

-Mance

[Hrafntýr]

Thank you, Wolfmaid, for setting up so many interesting points of discussion! I'm going to need some time to digest, but just quickly now (since I've got to go out), I want to say how useful I found your discussion of the occasions of Kings beyond the Wall. It does seem reasonable to suggest, especially on the basis of Osha's testimony, that it has something to do with the cold winds rising, let's say the emergence of WWs. But it raised two questions for me:

1) Did any of these Kings have a plan for what they'd do when they got past the Wall? Was it just: hey, let's get to the other side then we'll take it from there?!? If the point is just survival, why not just melt away into the Wolf's Woods, the mountains, etc. Why stay together as an armed force and engage forces like those of the Umbers and the Starks? It doesn't make sense to me. Are they ALWAYS engaged with House Stark on the other side? Does this have something to do with activating a power or responsibility of House Stark?

2) What happens with the cold winds/WWs after the KbtW and his people pass over the Wall? Is their emergence on these 6 occasions just some sort of life-cycle thing, and they just emerge, do their thing, then go dormant again? Or does what happens with the free folk and the Starks south of the Wall somehow impact them? I know you had some creepy ideas about the free folk as prisoners or tribute or something, so is this sequence of events about the Starks keeping up a bargain to ensure that the free folk stay north of the Wall? (I can't truthfully say as I really buy that, but the question you raise about why these uprisings of a KbtW does seem to call for some kind of explanation.)

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Whew. That is a lot of info at one time. Good job. I am glad you pointed out Joramun was never called King. I believe this is a clue to us readers. Not sure what the significance is, but I have ideas. My firest thought is he was religious leader of sorts. That ties in nicely with the Night"s King and the goings-on in at that time.

I am not sure about all the kbtw chosen as leaders to herd them away from an invasion of the frozen kind, although it is a possibility. The last time, with Redbeard, is to recent to not have any mention of a an Others or wights motive behind it.

Have to post more thoughts later, for now the flagons are reaching out to me like a young dragon in a petrified egg. They callin me

ETA not correcting my mistakes in this post. Just had a thought about the free folk fleeing for life beyond the wall. Maybe, there never was a push from the Others or wights, but only the cold winds rising. The edge of a storm that almost blows you away, then moves on with only a few leaves blown around. This time though, it's the real deal.

[wolfmaid7]

No you're correct Tormund's rings appear hereditary in nature but they also appear to be different than Craster's and I would suspect different that Varamyr as well. I suspect the golden rings denote a certain bloodline. And if I had to guess I think Tormund's title as Father of Hosts is a clue. Perhaps Varamyr and Craster have been identified with a special bloodline as well.

And I'll have to go back and check but I think Rodrik Cassel may have mentioned taking a golden ring (perhaps an arm ring?) off of the first Reek when Reek was disguised as Ramsay.

ETA: for what it's worth Odin was also known for his golden arm rings called Draupnir. They had the magical ability to replicate themselves.

I think so to on the bloodline angle ,it sems to be a theme that kept coming up. Again while i think the hereditary nobility is mince there seems to be a magical nobility at play.

First off, I have to say: Terrific essay, Wolfmaid! You and TBC are about to send me back to the drawing board to do a rewrite - partly to bulk things up, and partly just to incorporate all the connections I see with your ideas. Though there is at least one connection that's already been made, and I could only nod my head and smile when I saw you tie in THE GRAFT:

Not to get too far ahead of myself here, but you'll definitely be seeing more discussion of this concept in the near future - and it can certainly be extended here. Without getting all the way to grafting, however - and I'll probably save most of my thoughts on that particular concept for the next thread - there is another access point into Martin's garden metaphor that simply must be taken into consideration here. I've discussed it before in other settings, but here it really comes front and center for our discussion. The image I have in mind, of course, involves a particular set of definitions related to your topic:

THE WILDLING (n.)

• A plant that grows wild or has escaped from cultivation,especially a wild apple tree or its fruit;
• (Botany) an uncultivated plant, esp the crab apple, or a cultivated plant that has become wild

Given Martin's admitted "gardener" style (as an author), "wildling" is a word that suggests a certain relationship, and a particular history, between those "inside" and those "outside" the protection of the Wall. In fact, Martin's word choice pushes us to envision the Wall as "a garden wall" protecting cultivated family trees, fruits and flowers from exposure to the elements. It's even tempting to consider the word kneeler a possible synonym for farmhand, planter, or nurseryman. The wildling, having escaped the protection of the enclosed garden, self-reliant and trusting only his (her) own strength for survival - must see those inside the garden enclosure as doubly weak. Not only do they kneel to the authority of other men as "kings," but through that very act - kneeling, in the garden - they nurture, raise, and support rulers who might otherwise prove too tender to stand on their own.

I noticed recently that Martin uses the word wildling elsewhere in his story - with reference to another people, separate from those beyond the Wall. It is also used to identify the clansmen befriended by Tyrion in the Vale of Arryn, the Mountains of the Moon. Outsiders, for sure, and they share their First Men roots with those north of the Wall. But that leaves me wondering... does the analogy extend to other groups living "outside" the garden? House Greyjoy's motto is "We Do Not Sow." ("We Do Not Garden?") And the words of House Arryn - "High as Honor" - might symbolically explain its inability to grow weirwoods in the stony garden at the Eyrie. Even Illyrio Mopatis - across the Narrow Sea - displays the same disdain toward Westerosi household banners that Mance attributes to the wildlings:

Meanwhile, Westeros is chock full of orchards, gardens and gardeners, including the Arbor, High Garden, (the now extinct) House Gardener, Fossoway Apples (both red and green), House Stark, and even a Stone Garden (at Casterly Rock). And from the perspective of these "insiders," ironmen and wildlings are inevitably characterized as raiders or reapers - breaching the garden wall to steal their women (flowers) and children (fruit), cutting down their young men (valuable harvest) in the process.

I love this Snowy you never disappoint,but to switch things a bit and this goes back to my point.Who was really in the garden and who was left out.It seems the Free Folk are the one most capable of surviving a Winter like this.Or should i say a pure strain of FM blood.

More to the topic.....I always am curious about Crasters ancestry. How exactly did he obtain "Crasters Keep"? Did he build it? How so? Also how did he find out about the exchange of sons witht he White Walkers in order for safety? Is this a common Wildling tradition? IF it is....why don't more wildlings do it so they stay safe? I mean they didn't seem to WANT to come down South of the Wall until they absolutely had to. I think there is absolutely something funny about the bloodlines of at least a COUPLE wildlings we've seen. Mainly:

-Tormund.

-Val

-Craster

-Mance

Oh yeah,i think there is something fishy with this group and blood has to do with it.

Thank you, Wolfmaid, for setting up so many interesting points of discussion! I'm going to need some time to digest, but just quickly now (since I've got to go out), I want to say how useful I found your discussion of the occasions of Kings beyond the Wall. It does seem reasonable to suggest, especially on the basis of Osha's testimony, that it has something to do with the cold winds rising, let's say the emergence of WWs. But it raised two questions for me:

1) Did any of these Kings have a plan for what they'd do when they got past the Wall? Was it just: hey, let's get to the other side then we'll take it from there?!? If the point is just survival, why not just melt away into the Wolf's Woods, the mountains, etc. Why stay together as an armed force and engage forces like those of the Umbers and the Starks? It doesn't make sense to me. Are they ALWAYS engaged with House Stark on the other side? Does this have something to do with activating a power or responsibility of House Stark?

2) What happens with the cold winds/WWs after the KbtW and his people pass over the Wall? Is their emergence on these 6 occasions just some sort of life-cycle thing, and they just emerge, do their thing, then go dormant again? Or does what happens with the free folk and the Starks south of the Wall somehow impact them? I know you had some creepy ideas about the free folk as prisoners or tribute or something, so is this sequence of events about the Starks keeping up a bargain to ensure that the free folk stay north of the Wall? (I can't truthfully say as I really buy that, but the question you raise about why these uprisings of a KbtW does seem to call for some kind of explanation.)

Thank you very much Hrafntyr i found it easier to get through the inconsistencies that way:

1. To your first query i think it may have been a combination of a few things at work,according to the text they were either broken on the Wall or Winterfell on the otherside so it seems no matter what they were met with resistance and the little fighters they had were decimated eveytime.Looking at the makeup of the Wildling camp now most of them were not fighters.They look big an intimidating but in truth the clans that were more aggressive were involved and those willing to submit themselves as fighters were all they were.I also think had they not met with any resistance they might have melted away.I've asked myself when Gilly asked Jon to take her as far as the Wall and leave her,where the hell did she plan to go? Another thing and this is the big one and that is we look at the Wildlings as "one" group and forget sometimes that not all of them are Free Folk and once over the Wall whoever the King is may loose his sway.His job would be over he got them over the Wall and his role is done. The quote where Jon asked Mance about can he rule them once they get over is pivitol because honestly he couldn't.So i wouldn't be suprise if the Thenns or Hornfoot started attacking people like crazy.But they are the exception their are other clans who would be peaceful and just melt away to be left alone.Mance couldn't stop the clans that were aggressive and hostile from coming into the fold because well he's not that type of King.

2.To the second that's just it i don't think they were ever prisoners,there is no way you could keep them North especially when the Wall is going up and them not come over...all of them.So It must have been a choice urged by X.That's the only way their ancestors would have stayed they must have been told something and that made them go and stay. Its so strange in a time when the FM pretty much went back to fighting each other the Free Folk at that time didn't just come over in small groups.With the population decimated how many of them went North anyway and again why would you stay in a place where the so call enemy of man was pushed back.I do believe however everything came to head during Joramun's time and the Free Folk suffered.One minute he was helping the SIWF the next he was invading in that space of time.Something happened and he got back doored as well.

[wolfmaid7]

Whew. That is a lot of info at one time. Good job. I am glad you pointed out Joramun was never called King. I believe this is a clue to us readers. Not sure what the significance is, but I have ideas. My firest thought is he was religious leader of sorts. That ties in nicely with the Night"s King and the goings-on in at that time.

I am not sure about all the kbtw chosen as leaders to herd them away from an invasion of the frozen kind, although it is a possibility. The last time, with Redbeard, is to recent to not have any mention of a an Others or wights motive behind it.

Have to post more thoughts later, for now the flagons are reaching out to me like a young dragon in a petrified egg. They callin me

Lo don't drink to much......I though about the recency issue and it occured to me its a matter of believability.Would any mention of dead men walking be believed. Hell if it wasn't for Othor and Jaffa the NW wouldn't have been to keen on the stories of the Free Folk. Plus Osha warned Robb flat out told him and he was to busy with the Lannisters.Now in the age of hereos when 100 Kingdoms rose and fell and people were to busy fighting this lLord and that Lord like Robb would they take any news beyond the Wall seriously?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I love this Snowy you never disappoint,but to switch things a bit and this goes back to my point. Who was really in the garden and who was left out. It seems the Free Folk are the one most capable of surviving a Winter like this. Or should i say a pure strain of FM blood.

Oh, no doubt... the free folk are a hardy stock. And the "indoor" cultivars are relatively ill-prepared for seasonal extremes - yet they are generally more productive, and their fruit are more valuable. Thus the importance of the graft: it is necessary for the health of the population, for the continuance of the species. The alternative, of course, (taken to the extreme) is inbreeding and species decline... (Is there a joke here about recessive traits and three headed dragons? Mr. Targaryen, anybody?... Hello? It seems nobody's there...)

As I've said before: within the Seven Kingdoms, all wildlings are bastards, and all bastards wildlings. The free folk practice "marriage by kidnapping"... there is no institutional recognition or ceremony that would be acknowledged south of the Wall, where children are cultivated through arranged marriages. Thus by Seven Kingdoms standards all wildlings are, quite literally, bastards. Likewise bastards south of the Wall are second rate citizens - they are unable to inherit and unfit for marriage. They are notoriously undisciplined, "traitorous," susceptible to passion and lust. They are the uncultivated children of nature ("my natural daughter") born from chance seedlings sown outside the family plot, given names of the land in place of the names of their fathers: Snow, Sand, Hill, Rivers, Flowers, Stone, and Storm.

[TheButcherCrow]

Wolfie, excellent write-up, kudos :bowdown: Snow, excellent commentary, good work :bowdown:

The issue of recency is one I've been thinking about and I reckon the answer lies with Torrhen Stark. It strikes me that kneeling to Aegon without offering any sort of resistance is remarkably "un-northern". The north held against Andal invaders for what, somewhere between 2000-6000 years, to simply give up their independence is mind-boggling. But what if there was a more clear & present danger ? What if, "the cold winds were rising" and Torrhen's agreement with Aegon included provisions that kept the north relatively free of interference from KL, kept the watch well stocked and guaranteed the Starks dominion over the north. I think perhaps (more plausibly) that Torrhen knew some truths lost to subsequent generations of Starks. It's not that the cold winds had started to rise, it's that, Torrhen was waiting for them to do so. He couldn't risk the north falling into the hands of anyone but the Starks because he knew they had a sacred duty to perform when "Winter" finally comes.

It strikes me (to get to the wildlings) that the original "Wildlings" were simply FM who refused to kneel to the first Stark KITN. We have evidence with the Thenns (arguably the most pure FM remaining in Westeros) that Wildling culture in not a universally egalitarian one. Yet still, the Magnar is no King. It is reasonable to assume that Thenn culture is a very close approximation of FM culture PRIOR to the construction of the Wall. Interestingly, they practice hereditary inheritance of titles, with the Magnar's son becoming Magnar upon the elder's death. This is a big indication to me that back before the Wall, before the Long Night, the north would have been riddled with Magnars. So what does all this mean ? Well I believe it indicates the connection between the Wall, the Watch and the primacy of the Starks over the north. The wildlings represent the clans that would not accept one king for the north and instead made the decision to live outwith "the realms of men". What I think is most intriguing about this is that, IF some third party were responsible for creating the circumstances that would allow the Starks to become Kings of the North, that third party could reasonably assume that a fair few clans wouldn't accept the terms, in fact I'd be surprised if that proviso wasn't offered at the same time as the option to kneel, "you can kneel or you can go north of the Wall". To what end though ? Well immediately it occurs to me that it is an excellent way to guarantee a supply of extremely pure FM blood. What one might need that for ? The possibilities are intriguing indeed.

BTW, thanks to everyone who responded to my Bran/Jon post in the last thread. The comet as a portent of the long winter would seem to be a bust (unless it comes once, as a warning, then returns 15 years later :dunno: ) but I'm pretty convinced that Bran and Jon are, unbeknownst to them, playing out a sequence of events that at one time was a ritualised practice.

[JasonJD]

ETA not correcting my mistakes in this post. Just had a thought about the free folk fleeing for life beyond the wall. Maybe, there never was a push from the Others or wights, but only the cold winds rising. The edge of a storm that almost blows you away, then moves on with only a few leaves blown around. This time though, it's the real deal.

Or perhaps they made the common logical mistake of 'The Others bring the cold winds, therefore the cold winds mean The Others come' where in previous cases it was merely a bad winter. In this case, and the original case, it was true though.

[wolfmaid7]

Oh, no doubt... the free folk are a hardy stock. And the "indoor" cultivars are relatively ill-prepared for seasonal extremes - yet they are generally more productive, and their fruit are more valuable. Thus the importance of the graft: it is necessary for the health of the population, for the continuance of the species. The alternative, of course, (taken to the extreme) is inbreeding and species decline... (Is there a joke here about recessive traits and three headed dragons? Mr. Targaryen, anybody?... Hello? It seems nobody's there...)

As I've said before: within the Seven Kingdoms, all wildlings are bastards, and all bastards wildlings. The free folk practice "marriage by kidnapping"... there is no institutional recognition or ceremony that would be acknowledged south of the Wall, where children are cultivated through arranged marriages. Thus by Seven Kingdoms standards all wildlings are, quite literally, bastards. Likewise bastards south of the Wall are second rate citizens - they are unable to inherit and unfit for marriage. They are notoriously undisciplined, "traitorous," susceptible to passion and lust. They are the uncultivated children of nature ("my natural daughter") born from chance seedlings sown outside the family plot, given names of the land in place of the names of their fathers: Snow, Sand, Hill, Rivers, Flowers, Stone, and Storm.

Wolfie, excellent write-up, kudos :bowdown: Snow, excellent commentary, good work :bowdown:

The issue of recency is one I've been thinking about and I reckon the answer lies with Torrhen Stark. It strikes me that kneeling to Aegon without offering any sort of resistance is remarkably "un-northern". The north held against Andal invaders for what, somewhere between 2000-6000 years, to simply give up their independence is mind-boggling. But what if there was a more clear & present danger ? What if, "the cold winds were rising" and Torrhen's agreement with Aegon included provisions that kept the north relatively free of interference from KL, kept the watch well stocked and guaranteed the Starks dominion over the north. I think perhaps (more plausibly) that Torrhen knew some truths lost to subsequent generations of Starks. It's not that the cold winds had started to rise, it's that, Torrhen was waiting for them to do so. He couldn't risk the north falling into the hands of anyone but the Starks because he knew they had a sacred duty to perform when "Winter" finally comes.

It strikes me (to get to the wildlings) that the original "Wildlings" were simply FM who refused to kneel to the first Stark KITN. We have evidence with the Thenns (arguably the most pure FM remaining in Westeros) that Wildling culture in not a universally egalitarian one. Yet still, the Magnar is no King. It is reasonable to assume that Thenn culture is a very close approximation of FM culture PRIOR to the construction of the Wall. Interestingly, they practice hereditary inheritance of titles, with the Magnar's son becoming Magnar upon the elder's death. This is a big indication to me that back before the Wall, before the Long Night, the north would have been riddled with Magnars. So what does all this mean ? Well I believe it indicates the connection between the Wall, the Watch and the primacy of the Starks over the north. The wildlings represent the clans that would not accept one king for the north and instead made the decision to live outwith "the realms of men". What I think is most intriguing about this is that, IF some third party were responsible for creating the circumstances that would allow the Starks to become Kings of the North, that third party could reasonably assume that a fair few clans wouldn't accept the terms, in fact I'd be surprised if that proviso wasn't offered at the same time as the option to kneel, "you can kneel or you can go north of the Wall". To what end though ? Well immediately it occurs to me that it is an excellent way to guarantee a supply of extremely pure FM blood. What one might need that for ? The possibilities are intriguing indeed.

BTW, thanks to everyone who responded to my Bran/Jon post in the last thread. The comet as a portent of the long winter would seem to be a bust (unless it comes once, as a warning, then returns 15 years later :dunno: ) but I'm pretty convinced that Bran and Jon are, unbeknownst to them, playing out a sequence of events that at one time was a ritualised practice.

Thanks a lot Butch :cheers: The result of many of these circumastances were beautifully neat for me to neat. The supply of pure FM blood is just to good to ignore,it works out beautifully for anyone who wants to maximize use of that.I've contemplated this in my discussion points for simmering when it comes to how they got there and i agree with you their ancestors had to have chosen to go because during the time when it was excellent to come over,no one wasn't.But i also ask myself that was pretty ballsy going where suppossedly the enemy was pushed back to.Were they given santuary until the Cold Winds rise.It strange for sure.

Another thing about the recency which occured to me i really have to go here because i think it possible this was a major wrench.Political turmoil is a real distraction and i didn't realize how big he disconnect is until this essay. NW members showed up with a moving hand in a bottle at KL and were laughed out the hall,the crown had more pressing matters with Robb Stark.Robb dismissed Osha's warning and when Bran promised Osha he's make Robb listen he got distracted by the feast and that went unoticed.

Can you imagine how many incidences wern't taken seriously and in the age of heroes and onward those south of the Wall were fighting amongst themselves to even care. The watch well they would probably chucked that to tales and stories by crazy Wildlings.