Heresy 132 The Wildlings

[Hrafntýr]

Also, I meant to say: Wolfmaid, I really liked the connection you made in your essay between Night's King/Stark on the Wall/Bastard on the Wall and the Lord of the Crossing. I wish I could figure out, though, the exact function of the "mayhaps," i.e. what the magical equivalent of a "mayhaps" might be. It suggests some kind of Trickster role, or building an "out" into the terms of an agreement or pact. It makes me wish that I had a digital copy of the books, so that I could start to analyze all the actual uses of "mayhaps" in the books, to better understand the linguistic function and whether there's a pattern in the outcome of such statements.

[The Free Folk]

I do really like BC's hypothesis that the Horn is an instrument of unbinding magic. This would, hypothetically, work with a "wake the giants" scenario if we were to suppose some sort of giant XXXXs bound by magic, waiting to be unbound, just as it would work with unbinding the magic that holds together the Wall and possibly Winterfell.

I also really like this hypothesis especially with the connection of the Umber sigil. There's very little on the wiki and in the books about the ancient history of the Umbers other than the fact they are one of the houses named as a potential home to the Night's King, though I think it's easy to take the hypothetic waking giants a bit further in this scenario and assume that the Umbers were allied with Jornamum and the Stark in Winterfell in unbinding the giants from (the Children's?) servitude.

[redriver]

Could Joramun have been a Free Folk leader who became a greenseer?Would such a paradigm be without precedent within the novels?

It could be he called down this "Horn of Winter" comet that has caused all the ensuing fuss.

[Mithras]

“I’m crying because we never found the Horn of Winter. We opened half a hundred graves and let all those shades loose in the world, and never found the Horn of Joramun to bring this cold thing down!”

What shades?

[The Free Folk]

Another question/observation before I forget:

Do we know exactly what a woods witch is? In reading through the series I got the impression they were the doctors and maegi of the free folk but then there's the Jenny of Oldstones woods witch which (har!) throws a wrench in that. So who exactly are the woods witches?

[Mithras]

“Raymun Redbeard, Bael the Bard, Gendel and Gorne, the Horned Lord, they all came south to conquer, but I’ve come with my tail between my legs to hide behind your Wall.” He touched the horn again. “If I sound the Horn of Winter, the Wall will fall. Or so the songs would have me believe.”

1. Why did Mance skip Joramun? Did he not come south to conquer? If so, what did he come for?

2. There is a general tendency in the text that everything before "or so I am told, or so it is claimed" etc. are lies. In this case, Mance might be lying about the Horn.

3. There is really a song about Joramun and Jon recalls a line from that one. It is “And Joramun blew the Horn of Winter, and woke giants from the earth.”

[Hrafntýr]

Could Joramun have been a Free Folk leader who became a greenseer?Would such a paradigm be without precedent within the novels?

It could be he called down this "Horn of Winter" comet that has caused all the ensuing fuss.

At the same time, I can't help wondering if Joramun and his Horn isn't one and the same with the Horned Lord, who in the WoIaF released excerpts "is said to have used sorcery to pass the Wall." He's said there to have lived two (or perhaps one) thousand years ago. (Though it says his name is lost to history, whereas Joramun's hasn't been.)

Regardless of any such overlap in identity, the excerpt authorizes to think that magic and the KBTW can go together.

[OberynBlackfyre]

“I’m crying because we never found the Horn of Winter. We opened half a hundred graves and let all those shades loose in the world, and never found the Horn of Joramun to bring this cold thing down!”

What shades?

I was always curious of this as well.

The funny thing is that GRRM is always mentioning ghosts and haunted places...yet we haven't seen an actual ghost or real haunting. In a world where magic exists, and wights, I would think a ghost would be a rather small thing in comparison.

Her talk of shades reminds me of the taking of the swords in the WF crypts and that people were scared the ghosts of the Kings would rise. Also, Theons dream in which he sees a lot of dead people in the WF great hall I think migh thave been a supernatural one because he saw Lyanna there with a blood spattered gown......unless Ned for some reason went into detail about Lyannas death with THEON (unlikely) then he was seeing something pretty big.

[Amoracchius]

I was always curious of this as well.

The funny thing is that GRRM is always mentioning ghosts and haunted places...yet we haven't seen an actual ghost or real haunting. In a world where magic exists, and wights, I would think a ghost would be a rather small thing in comparison.

Her talk of shades reminds me of the taking of the swords in the WF crypts and that people were scared the ghosts of the Kings would rise. Also, Theons dream in which he sees a lot of dead people in the WF great hall I think migh thave been a supernatural one because he saw Lyanna there with a blood spattered gown......unless Ned for some reason went into detail about Lyannas death with THEON (unlikely) then he was seeing something pretty big.

Actually, we may have seen a real ghost. Throughout ASOS and AFFC, Jaime comments that when he dreams, he still has two hands, it's only when he's awake that he's maimed. Yet, in his last chapter in AFFC, he sees a woman strongly implied to be his late mother. When he tells her that she's not real and he must be dreaming, she tells him to count his hands. Jaime looks down and sees that he only has one.

[OberynBlackfyre]

Actually, we may have seen a real ghost. Throughout ASOS and AFFC, Jaime comments that when he dreams, he still has two hands, it's only when he's awake that he's maimed. Yet, in his last chapter in AFFC, he sees a woman strongly implied to be his late mother. When he tells her that she's not real and he must be dreaming, she tells him to count his hands. Jaime looks down and sees that he only has one.

Oh I completely agree that I think it WAS his real mother. However what I mean by "Ghost" is an actual spectral being seen by one of the characters when they are awake and in the right state of mind. I think Theon DEFINITELY saw ghosts when he had the dream of the dead feast, and Bran and RIckon also saw Ned when he had died and was in the crypts......which we only have Rickon as a reliable witness that he saw Ned whilst awake, where Bran saw Ned while he was dreaming.

[Black Crow]

More to the topic.....I always am curious about Crasters ancestry. How exactly did he obtain "Crasters Keep"? Did he build it? How so? Also how did he find out about the exchange of sons witht he White Walkers in order for safety? Is this a common Wildling tradition? IF it is....why don't more wildlings do it so they stay safe?

The key to this question is Ygritte's comment about Craster bearing a heavy curse. Both the Wildlings and the Watch know what he's doing, but they don't interfere. There are no mobs of peasants with flaming torches and sharp pointy things marching on Craster's Keep, precisely because he is a Sin Eater. He's shunned and despised, but tolerated because he is a godly man and gives up his sons to the cold gods, which means their own are safe. Indeed the whole point of that weird set-up at the Keep is that it is a baby farm serving that very purpose.

[Black Crow]

Oh I completely agree that I think it WAS his real mother. However what I mean by "Ghost" is an actual spectral being seen by one of the characters when they are awake and in the right state of mind. I think Theon DEFINITELY saw ghosts when he had the dream of the dead feast, and Bran and RIckon also saw Ned when he had died and was in the crypts......which we only have Rickon as a reliable witness that he saw Ned whilst awake, where Bran saw Ned while he was dreaming.

Entirely possible but none of them were Wildling ghosts :cool4:

[Black Crow]

At the same time, I can't help wondering if Joramun and his Horn isn't one and the same with the Horned Lord, who in the WoIaF released excerpts "is said to have used sorcery to pass the Wall." He's said there to have lived two (or perhaps one) thousand years ago. (Though it says his name is lost to history, whereas Joramun's hasn't been.)

Regardless of any such overlap in identity, the excerpt authorizes to think that magic and the KBTW can go together.

I'm rather inclined to think that this "lost to history" business is just a literary cloaking device, concealing the fact that a single individual is known by different names - another obvious example being the Nights King. It may not turn out in this case that Joruman and the Horned Lord are one and the same, but the fact the latter's identity is concealed has to raise questions as to who he really was, and moreover even if he isn't Joruman that's not to preclude him using Joruman's horn.

[OberynBlackfyre]

The key to this question is Ygritte's comment about Craster bearing a heavy curse. Both the Wildlings and the Watch know what he's doing, but they don't interfere. There are no mobs of peasants with flaming torches and sharp pointy things marching on Craster's Keep because he is a sin eater. He's shunned and despised, but tolerated because he is a godly man and gives up his sons to the cold gods, which means their own are safe. Indeed the whole point of that weird set-up at the Keep is that it is a baby farm serving that very purpose.

I agree. I mean the man is a pretty much OPEN kinslayer, and as well as being heavy into incest. But does that mean that Crasters sacrifice alone is enough to keep ALL the Wildlings safe? If so, what changed? And one could argue that the little Crasters son at the Wall was born in very heavy "destiny" like circumstances. He's the only one of Crasters sons that survived after all. Even then he was born within a battle like Aemon Steelsong.

[Black Crow]

I agree. I mean the man is a pretty much OPEN kinslayer, and as well as being heavy into incest. But does that mean that Crasters sacrifice alone is enough to keep ALL the Wildlings safe? If so, what changed? And one could argue that the little Crasters son at the Wall was born in very heavy "destiny" like circumstances. He's the only one of Crasters sons that survived after all. Even then he was born within a battle like Aemon Steelsong.

Well there you see we're straying into the heresy that the white walkers are a red herring; that they're not an evil race poised to invade Westeros but Craster's changeling sons, taken as and when required to serve the three fingered lot sitting down in the darkness. Its sufficient therefore that Craster as the Sin-Eater pays the tithe to Hell on behalf of the rest.

[Peruvian]

So too with the Wildlings. As noted above, from time to time they rally behind a king who somehow gets them over [or under] the Wall, but seemingly with no other purpose than to push as far south as possible. And it always ends in tears. There are no traditions of a "great" raid and conversely again returning to historical precedent were the great victories won by the Watch and the Starks of Winterfell real or were they in truth massacres not just of fighting men but of refugee women, children, old and sick - like Mance's trek - all trying to escape from the cold winds?

If the wildings got south of the wall and lost every time, how´s the north of the wall still populated? It means that some wildings were forced back north of the wall alive, or that not all the wildings went south.

[Black Crow]

If the wildings got south of the wall and lost every time, how´s the north of the wall still populated? It means that some wildings were forced back north of the wall alive, or that not all the wildings went south.

A very good point. There is of course on old adage that every massacre has its survivors and while we don't get the impression that many made it back over the Wall, at least some of those staying beyond it must have avoided whatever the rest were fleeing from, but no doubt at a cost. I think what's different this time around is that the threat is real as we build up to what's billed as the big one.

[wolfmaid7]

Excellent essay Wolfmaid! I absolutely love it! And this essay couldn't have come at a better time for me personally, as I am about halfway through Storm on my reread, just read the Queenscrown chapters this morning and have most of Ygritte's great lines about the free folk fresh in my head.

I'm sure you can probably deduce looking at my name and signature, but I am generally a fan of the free folk and a supporter of their cause. While the raping, raiding and kidnapping are abominable behaviours, I do find myself supporting their cause while reading and like their culture's views on institutions, authority and the land:

"The gods made the earth for all men t' share. Only when the kings come with their crowns and steel swords, they claimed it was all theirs. My trees, they said, you can't eat them apples. My stream, you can't fish here. My wood, you're not t' hunt. My earth, my water, my castle..."

Lol something gave me a clue.I am so glad you brought up this quote,i think it alludes to what i've been saying.We know the FM had no steel swords and Kingship wasn't their thing so they must of stopped being allowed to cross at around the time of the Andals if what Ygritte say is true.

Going back to the question of the golden rings. We know Tormund wears runed gold arm rings that he states was passed down from his father and his father's father. Interestingly enough, Tormund seems more than willing to turn his rings over to Jon once he crosses the Wall even when Jon urges him to keep the rings. There is almost an indication that he no longer has any need of the rings, nor any need to pass them down to his sons. Tormund is also known as Father of Hosts, which I think the reader is manipulated into given little weight to the title because of Tormund's general bombastic nature. However, as I've noted before Hosts (especially when capitalized) could both be an army and a sacrifice, which seems to me anyway as a pretty apt description of what Craster may be doing with his sons. They are sacrificed to be turned into an army.

Speaking of Craster he is also in possession of a golden arm ring, the only form of jewelry on his person. Craster shows no fear of the White Walkers and states that he is protected because he is a godly man. We have at least a strong suspicion that Craster gives his sons up to be "turned" into White Walkers.

We know that Varamyr was given a golden arm ring by Mance Rayder. We don't know when that ring was given to him, but I wonder if Varamyr may have been given the ring for a specific purpose. Perhaps it was for protection or to mark him. If a certain bloodline is necessary for a human sacrifice to create a White Walker, I wonder if the powerful Varamyr has been identified as having a necessary bloodline.

I found a quote from Ramsay Bolton that I also found interesting for purposes of this discussion. I think there has been a suspicion by other posters that Ramsay (perhaps through his mother) may have a connection to Craster's Keep. There are at least a lot of parallels between Ramsay's "hobbies" and the legend of the White Walker's past atrocities. It's been pointed out that there seems to be a physical resemblance of Ramsay to Craster as well. But regardless of whether Ramsay is actually connected to Craster and the White Walkers, I at least think that there are some intentional parallels. Those parallels makes this following quote interesting, when Ramsay is talking of switching identities with the first Reek:

I don't have any reason to believe that the ring Ramsay is speaking of serves the same function as the rings of Tormund, Craster, and Varamyr but I think this quote may be a clue as to the significance of the arm rings being worn by some of the Wildlings.

Perhaps the arm rings of Tormund, Craster, and Varamyr are meant to identify certain persons of notable bloodlines for protection against the White Walkers. Wear these arm rings so the White Walkers will know you came from my bloodline.

I like the bloodline idea and think it has a big part to play.Of note when Jon was looking over the camp he said there were hundreds of different clans so maybe they each had a little "home stone" thing going on where someone was responsible for day to day rituals of the clan.

Also, I meant to say: Wolfmaid, I really liked the connection you made in your essay between Night's King/Stark on the Wall/Bastard on the Wall and the Lord of the Crossing. I wish I could figure out, though, the exact function of the "mayhaps," i.e. what the magical equivalent of a "mayhaps" might be. It suggests some kind of Trickster role, or building an "out" into the terms of an agreement or pact. It makes me wish that I had a digital copy of the books, so that I could start to analyze all the actual uses of "mayhaps" in the books, to better understand the linguistic function and whether there's a pattern in the outcome of such statements.

Yeah the "mayhaps" thing got me because it means "possibly" or "perhaps" which as you suggested evoked a kind of Trickster vibe. You could pass if you do/give/convince me of X.

Another question/observation before I forget:

Do we know exactly what a woods witch is? In reading through the series I got the impression they were the doctors and maegi of the free folk but then there's the Jenny of Oldstones woods witch which (har!) throws a wrench in that. So who exactly are the woods witches?

The thing is though she could have been from among the free folk,the thing about woods witches because of who they are no one bothers them so they have free run.Much like the Volva of Norse Myth.The text only said "she came to court with Jenny" so she may have aligned herself to Jenny as a means of getting her where she wanted to be...At court.

At the same time, I can't help wondering if Joramun and his Horn isn't one and the same with the Horned Lord, who in the WoIaF released excerpts "is said to have used sorcery to pass the Wall." He's said there to have lived two (or perhaps one) thousand years ago. (Though it says his name is lost to history, whereas Joramun's hasn't been.)

Regardless of any such overlap in identity, the excerpt authorizes to think that magic and the KBTW can go together.

True that! It very possible magic could be involved though temporary with that position.

[wolfmaid7]

If the wildings got south of the wall and lost every time, how´s the north of the wall still populated? It means that some wildings were forced back north of the wall alive, or that not all the wildings went south.

I have two thoughts with this as i noted the Free Folk doesn't only consists of clans that are aggressive in fact the Thenns are not considered "Free Folk" nor are "Skinchangers" they just go along with them.So what i think happened many times some just slunk away or as BC put it survived the massacre.Remember this is not an army moving its clans ,families their livestock with fighters at various points to protect the migration.If it gets hit everyone will scatter except maybe the fighters.

My second point is this the survivors of the massacres are basically replanted south when most of the southerners die from the cold.The Free Folk are most likely to survive and repopulate in harsh this harsh a Winter.Thus the First Man line continues when all is said and done,some may go back North or choose to stay south until some idiot declares himself king and mucks up the whole plan. This time arund with a successful passing 'if' the Free Folk survive i could see them successfully introducing a democracy type rule.

A very good point. There is of course on old adage that every massacre has its survivors and while we don't get the impression that many made it back over the Wall, at least some of those staying beyond it must have avoided whatever the rest were fleeing from, but no doubt at a cost. I think what's different this time around is that the threat is real as we build up to what's billed as the big one.

True true.Its interesting to map the migrations. We know they do it when there is a monumental treat to ALL of them chasing them south like rats from the sewers.Was it always treats from the Others i don't know.But some epic something puts them on this path ever so often and this is one of them.

[Hrafntýr]

Incidentally, and maybe apropos the woods witch as völva, but maybe of interest to some Heretics: apparently, in the Martin/Hobb interview the other night, when talking about their early writing endeavors, GRRM said this:

“I was a journalism major, and I would take creative writing classes as part of that, but I would also look for opportunities to write stories for some of my other classes. So for my course in Scandinavian history, I asked if I could write historical fiction instead of term papers. Sometimes they’d say yes.”

GRRM took a course in Scandinavian history!

ETA: However, I haven't confirmed this...didn't watch the interview, this is based on a buzzfeed writeup! Anyone see the video and care to confirm or reject? I wonder now because the grammar of that last sentence doesn't really work.