What happened in Essos during the Long Night?

[Archmaester Drew]

Were The Others able to reach Essos during the Long Night? They are described as destroying kingdoms, so I assume they at least went beyond The Neck. At Hardholme there are reports of dead things in the water. Could they have crossed the Narrow Sea and threatened Essos?

Because it seems to originate in Essos (Asshai?), this is all relevant to the understanding of the Azor Ahai legend and prophesy, and it's relationship to the Last Hero (or lack thereof).

Thoughts?

:)

[Game Of Thrones]

Well, there are mammoths in Ibben...

[Hodor's Dragon]

Speaking of which, nobody really seems to be freaking out about Long Winter coming in Essos.

[Game Of Thrones]

The Dothraki Sea is drying up, and Braavos is freezing...

[igrewupinKL]

i think the long night did hit Essos, they have weirwood in the HotU and HoBaW. Winter is also coming to Braavos as stated above

[Archmaester Drew]

i think the long night did hit Essos, they have weirwood in the HotU and HoBaW. Winter is also coming to Braavos as stated above

True, but I think the weirwood items (or at least the weirwood itself) were imported from Westeros. There is plenty of trade. We have not see one grow anywhere in Essos. The Arm of Dorne once connected the continents but I don't recall any weirwoods in Dorne, either.

Winter is coming to all of 'Planetos' (at least the hemisphere that we know about). The question is, did the Others threaten Essos in the Long Night?

:)

[BearQueen87]

True, but I think the weirwood items (or at least the weirwood itself) were imported from Westeros. There is plenty of trade. We have not see one grow anywhere in Essos. The Arm of Dorne once connected the continents but I don't recall any weirwoods in Dorne, either.

Winter is coming to all of 'Planetos' (at least the hemisphere that we know about). The question is, did the Others threaten Essos in the Long Night?

:)

It depends on how far The Others got before the Dawn was brought. I think their presence and their movements down into Westeros affected all of Planetos, like others have pointed out, but I think they most likely got stopped before they could cross the Narrow Sea.

I've wondered if the Others can...freeze patches of water or something. Walk across the frozen parts to the Free Cities and beyond.

[Tyrus Martell]

One of my first posts on the board regarding the same question, slightly altered (and with Ghost Grass's significance also considered):

Generally, brutal Winter or "the Long Night" has been associated with Westeros, especially north of The Neck. But after reading and re-reading all the bits of the Dothraki's fears of Ghost Grass, everything about Melisandre and all the information on Azor Ahai, I think that Essos will be, and has been affected by Winter... and maybe the Ghost Grass is a signal.

Essos' history isn't really as fleshed out as Westeros. My personal theory is the majority of Essosi and their history books don't reference, document or remember The Long Night because most of the continent's immediate history has been focused on the Targaryen family, their Dragons and The Doom of Valyria, all of which have had much more immediate and significant affects on the continent in recent centuries.

For instance, dragons only died out 150 (?) years ago prior to the start of AGOT and three living ones are now out there in the world and acknowledged. The Doom and its affects still plague Valyria and its surrounding land and waters to the present day. Naturally, these very real and immediate dangers overshadow any old(er) stories about dead people walking the earth thousands of years ago.

Only the Red Priests like Melisandre in the far East, who preach of Azor Ahai come again, seem to remember the Long Night and warn people of it. I also think the Dothraki's fears of Ghost Grass is their own cultural way of passing down the horrors of the Long Night that hit Essos to the younger generations, so they always remember the terror that comes with it - or that Ghost Grass's development is/was a sign of the impending Long Night of Essos.

Just like the Northmen of Westeros and the Night's Watch of the Wall warn people and remain vigilant of winter, the Red Priests preach about Azor Ahai and the dangers of the darkness. Also, the prophecy of Azor Ahai is pretty much along the same lines as The Last Hero who stopped the Others during the Long Night, and who will do so again. It's just the Essosi (or Red Priest) interpretation/mythology of it.

If the Red Priests and Dothraki both have their own ways of remembering the winter, I'm sure GRRM will eventually reveal more about these things.

[James Arryn]

Real estate bubble totally burst.

[Archmaester Drew]

It depends on how far The Others got before the Dawn was brought. I think their presence and their movements down into Westeros affected all of Planetos, like others have pointed out, but I think they most likely got stopped before they could cross the Narrow Sea.

I've wondered if the Others can...freeze patches of water or something. Walk across the frozen parts to the Free Cities and beyond.

I've wondered that too. :)

One of my first posts on the board regarding the same question, slightly altered (and with Ghost Grass's significance also considered):

Generally, brutal Winter or "the Long Night" has been associated with Westeros, especially north of The Neck. But after reading and re-reading all the bits of the Dothraki's fears of Ghost Grass, everything about Melisandre and all the information on Azor Ahai, I think that Essos will be, and has been affected by Winter... and maybe the Ghost Grass is a signal.

Essos' history isn't really as fleshed out as Westeros. My personal theory is the majority of Essosi and their history books don't reference, document or remember The Long Night because most of the continent's immediate history has been focused on the Targaryen family, their Dragons and The Doom of Valyria, all of which have had much more immediate and significant affects on the continent in recent centuries.

For instance, dragons only died out 150 (?) years ago prior to the start of AGOT and three living ones are now out there in the world and acknowledged. The Doom and its affects still plague Valyria and its surrounding land and waters to the present day. Naturally, these very real and immediate dangers overshadow any old(er) stories about dead people walking the earth thousands of years ago.

Only the Red Priests like Melisandre in the far East, who preach of Azor Ahai come again, seem to remember the Long Night and warn people of it. I also think the Dothraki's fears of Ghost Grass is their own cultural way of passing down the horrors of the Long Night that hit Essos to the younger generations, so they always remember the terror that comes with it - or that Ghost Grass's development is/was a sign of the impending Long Night of Essos.

Just like the Northmen of Westeros and the Night's Watch of the Wall warn people and remain vigilant of winter, the Red Priests preach about Azor Ahai and the dangers of the darkness. Also, the prophecy of Azor Ahai is pretty much along the same lines as The Last Hero who stopped the Others during the Long Night, and who will do so again. It's just the Essosi (or Red Priest) interpretation/mythology of it.

If the Red Priests and Dothraki both have their own ways of remembering the winter, I'm sure GRRM will eventually reveal more about these things.

The legend and prophecy of Azor Ahai appears to be from the far east of Essos, as documented in the Jade Compendium, by the Volantine scholar, Colloquo Votar.

"The pages told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife’s blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame." –Jon Snow (ADWD: Jon 10)

This account does not describe an encounter with The Others, but with “a monster.” Although fire is effective against them, The Others are made of ice and would not burn, rather melt or vaporize. Perhaps the “darkness” that fell upon the world at this time was of a different nature?...and in Essos? Therefore, it would seem that the Last Hero was not Azor Ahai.

As far as I can tell, there is no mention in the Azor Ahai or Lightbringer in Westerosi legend, nor is there a Westerosi prophesy of the return of the Last Hero. The prophesy of The Prince who was Promised is known to Maester Aemon and to Melisandre, and to Rhaegar, and seems to have been originated in Essos, possibly Old Valyria. Maester Aemon says it is 1,000 years old, and Melisandre says 5,000. In Daenerys’ vision in the House of the Undying, she witnesses the birth of her nephew Aegon. Rhaegar proclaims, ”He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire."

This connects Azor Ahai and the Prince who was Promised, but the connection to the Long Night and Last hero are only vaguely implied and dubious.

:)

[igrewupinKL]

True, but I think the weirwood items (or at least the weirwood itself) were imported from Westeros. There is plenty of trade. We have not see one grow anywhere in Essos. The Arm of Dorne once connected the continents but I don't recall any weirwoods in Dorne, either.

Winter is coming to all of 'Planetos' (at least the hemisphere that we know about). The question is, did the Others threaten Essos in the Long Night?

:)

I might be wrong here (most likely) as i'm going off AFFC memory, but wasn't there a weirwood growing in the HoBaW?

[Free Northman Reborn]

The Long Night struck the entire Northern hemisphere, obviously. The climate in Essos would be largely the same as the climate in Southern Westeros. So Winter hits Essos in the same way it hits Southern Westeros.

A winter that lasted for 10 years likely led to the collapse of all civilization in Essos, even if the Others never set foot on the continent. There is a reason why the oldest Essosi civilization - the Empire of Great Ghis - dates back to the period immediately before 5000 years ago. Ghis and Ashai were likely the first civilizations that arose out of the ashes of the Long Night, 8000 years ago.

8000 years ago there was a global cataclysm that wiped out much of life on the planet, including all dragons outside of the protective volcanos of Valyria. That's why the Valyrians were the first humans to rediscover dragons after the Long Night. They had been wiped out all over the rest of the world, by cold and starvation during the Long Night.

Which probably was the purpose of the Long Night in the first place - a weapon to stop dragons from becoming the dominant species on the planet. But that is a debate for another thread.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I might be wrong here (most likely) as i'm going off AFFC memory, but wasn't there a weirwood growing in the HoBaW?

No, there is a door that is half weirwood and half ebony.

In terms of the AA prophesy being from Ashai, I think thats just more evidence that lightbringer is a dragon and not a sword.

[I'm the Party Pooper]

I think an answer can not be given without plenty of speculation.

Fact (?): a large part of Essos landmass has the same latitude of Sunspear-HighGarden-KingsLanding, according to this and several other maps (where the compass isn't exactly perpendicular).

Braavos is the most northern place in Essos, and it has the same latitude as the Vale/GreywaterWatch.

I therefore doubt that the winters are usually so harsh in Essos as they are in Westeros, not to the same scale as in the North, at least. A long winter in Essos should have transformed dry and hot places like Slaver's bay in wonderful heavens, with temperate climate. So it should have boosted their civilization, rather than doomed them.

Unless you assume that Essos is connected to the lands of always winter off-screen (that is, in an area not depicted in the map), for the others to have reached Asshai - which isn't even depicted on the huge map provided in the links - it means these others are really the fastest travellers in the world and possess the highest demographic increase rates ever witnessed. Because to represent a real and constant danger to all people from Westeros and Essos included, given their surface area extension, they surely can't have been only a dozen, a hundred or a thousand.. but millions, if not more.

The long winter lasted 'several generations', but how long is that? According to Wikipedia, to our own standards, that's around 22 years. In a world where people get to farm children and die younger, that might be less. But let's take that value for granted, several generations might go from a minimum of 1 to a maximum of what? If those were hundreds of generations, they would have said hundreds. If those were dozens of generation, they would have said dozens. I will be generous and cap the maximum to 10, although it's more likely a 3-5. That caps the other's invasion - and long winter duration - within the range of 220 years, or 110 years.

What can the others do in 220 years?

They surely can 'invade' an area as large as Westeros, and maybe even the entire Essos. By 'invade', I mean that they can surely bring destruction to these places, by constantly moving forward and expanding from their initial settlements. We have several historical events that confirm this pattern has been already used in the past.

But what kind of 'invasion' is that? It surely isn't a 'conquering' campaign, the others can't afford to leave behind tiny groups to control the places they invade or, unless assuming they have exponential demographic increase rates, their army would soon be so weak and scattered to hardly represent a danger. Sure, men didn't know how to kill them yet, but they could run and hide in safe places.

From the description that is given by old nan, I tend to think that they were representing a constant treat. And that means that - even after invading Westeros - they didn't scatter too much, but stayed there. Thus I think it's unlikely they have ever gone so far as in Essos, especially counting that they had to swim or sail to go there. Walking icy things under 20.000 feet of sea water? I don't believe it is plausible.

Maybe Essos is connected to the lands of always winter, maybe not. But I do think that either those two legends are totally separate, or the religion of Red Priests originated from people that abandoned Westeros.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I think an answer can not be given without plenty of speculation.

Fact (?): a large part of Essos landmass has the same latitude of Sunspear-HighGarden-KingsLanding, according to this and several other maps (where the compass isn't exactly perpendicular).

Braavos is the most northern place in Essos, and it has the same latitude as the Vale/GreywaterWatch.

I therefore doubt that the winters are usually so harsh in Essos as they are in Westeros, not to the same scale as in the North, at least.

Unless you assume that Essos is connected to the lands of always winter off-screen (that is, in an area not depicted in the map), for the others to have reached Asshai - which isn't even depicted on the huge map provided in the links - it means these others are really the fastest travellers in the world and possess the highest demographic increase rates ever witnessed. Because to represent a real and constant danger to all people from Westeros and Essos included, given their surface area extension, they surely can't have been only a dozen, a hundred or a thousand.. but millions, if not more.

The long winter lasted 'several generations', but how long is that? According to Wikipedia, to our own standards, that's around 22 years. In a world where people get to farm children and die younger, that might be less. But let's take that value for granted, several generations might go from a minimum of 1 to a maximum of what? If those were hundreds of generations, they would have said hundreds. If those were dozens of generation, they would have said dozens. I will be generous and cap the maximum to 10, although it's more likely a 3-5. That caps the other's invasion - and long winter duration - within the range of 220 years, or 110 years.

What can the others do in 220 years?

They surely can 'invade' an area as large as Westeros, and maybe even the entire Essos. By 'invade', I mean that they can surely bring destruction to these places, by constantly moving forward and expanding from their initial settlements. We have several historical events that confirm this pattern has been already used in the past.

But what kind of 'invasion' is that? It surely isn't a 'conquering' campaign, the others can't afford to leave behind tiny groups to control the places they invade or, unless assuming they have exponential demographic increase rates, their army would soon be so weak and scattered to hardly represent a danger. Sure, men didn't know how to kill them yet, but they could run and hide in safe places.

From the description that is given by old nan, I tend to think that they were representing a constant treat. And that means that - even after invading Westeros - they didn't scatter too much, but stayed there. Thus I think it's unlikely they have ever gone so far as in Essos, especially counting that they had to swim or sail to go there. Walking icy things under 20.000 feet of sea water? I don't believe it is plausible.

Maybe Essos is connected to the lands of always winter, maybe not. But I do think that either those two legends are totally separate, or the religion of Red Priests originated from people that abandoned Westeros.

Essos is not connected to the Arctic, because Martin has said that Westeros is the only continent that stretches that far North.

As for multiple generations of winter, if you just stop and think about that for a moment you will realize that the Others are the least of your concern. Anything past 5 years of winter will pretty much lead to a world wide famine that should wipe out 95% of the world population. No complex society can survive such a cataclysm. Roving bands of scavengers/cannibals would pretty much be the only survivors of such a catastrophe.

Maybe some isolated fishing communities can live off fish as a food supply, but with no summer for multiple generations, mass die offs will start as soon as the food stockpiles run out. Which will be anywhere around the 5 year mark at the latest.

So a Winter lasting a generation is almost certainly an exaggeration. 10 years is probably the longest it could conceivably have been for any reasonable human population numbers to survive.

So what happened to Essos in the Long Night? All pre-existing civilizations collapsed, and the majority of the population died off. Human civilization came to an end and had to start again once summer returned.

[Game Of Thrones]

@FNR

Places like Ghiscar or Valyria could easily have survied a 30-year winter with their southern latitude.

[Free Northman Reborn]

@FNR

Places like Ghiscar or Valyria could easily have survied a 30-year winter with their southern latitude.

So crops won't fail if there is no summer for 30 years?

[Game Of Thrones]

So crops won't fail if there is no summer for 30 years?

Well, it's just that it gets colder, not that there's no sunlight.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Well, it's just that it gets colder, not that there's no sunlight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines

List of notable famines in real world history, in countries located all over the world, including India and Egypt, which generally lie on latitudes similar to Ghis, Volantis etc.

These famines occur for reasons as relatively insignificant as the rains not falling at the right time, unseasonal frost for a few months, heat waves, reduced temperatures etc.

Now imagine multiple YEARS of winter.

I don't think you realize how intricately ancient civilization relied on reliable harvests, and how that in turn was utterly reliant on the climate.

5 years of Winter will bring just about any ancient civilization to its knees.

[Arakan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines

List of notable famines in real world history, in countries located all over the world, including India and Egypt, which generally lie on latitudes similar to Ghis, Volantis etc.

These famines occur for reasons as relatively insignificant as the rains not falling at the right time, unseasonal frost for a few months, heat waves, reduced temperatures etc.

Now imagine multiple YEARS of winter.

I don't think you realize how intricately ancient civilization relied on reliable harvests, and how that in turn was utterly reliant on the climate.

5 years of Winter will bring just about any ancient civilization to its knees.

It depends how you understand "generations long winter"...I don't understand it literally but more like this