The return of the Feminism thread - Time of War edition

[Lyanna Stark]

Post WorldCon feminism thread!! Welcome back to all the old people and the new.

First some rules, nicked from karaddin's first post in the last thread. Respect MY AUTHORITAY!!! these or get reported, or worse, laughed at.

1. Please don't troll this thread with that you don't believe in feminism. That can be taken elsewhere. This is a thread for discussing feminism and feminist topics.

2. Feel free to ask if you have any questions about feminism or feminists. If a questioned is framed with a modicum of politeness, it will normally get an answer.

3. Please don't troll this thread with biotruths, if you want to bring up how men are hardcoded to behave like X and women like Y, that can also be taken elsewhere. We are discussing societal pressures and how to change them, not innate biology. Yes this should be covered in 1) but it came up anyway last time.

4. Please also avoid anything else blatantly OT, such as pick up advice, derailing about door opening etc.

Good stuff first:

I thought I'd report a bit on the feminist-themed panels I went to at the SFF WorldCon in London this last week. Hopefully other people want to write a bit about their experiences as well. One general thing that stood out was that it seemed that compared to other fandoms, the ASOIAF fandom is pretty aware of sexism within fandom and sexism aimed at the characters in the novels and also that we have bandied together and are dealing with it. In fact I think we've been doing it for some time. We've also done something that is perhaps even more important in that we've tried to not only take a stand, but also to educate ourselves on how to be less sexist and more inclusive.

Perhaps I am being way over optimistic as especially the TV-series threads can be an absolute Pit. Our old-timers and Gen chat population are different though and our board guys who were at the Con and attended some of the feminist-themed panels seemed to think they were generally pretty basic and included too much Feminism 101. Go you, board guys. :)

This also made me feel like I need to up my game and provide something actually interesting for the feminism thread instead of more of the same old, same old. :P

Anyway, before we start with new things to rage and rant about, how about a recap? In my best Battlestar Galactica voice:

Previously, in the Feminism thread:

* Feminism 101 for the beginners. This link is not meant to be mean, it's there so that we don't have to constantly return to the basics. We've been there, done that, got the headaches and moved on.

* A short piece explaining privilige and what it is about

* Kate Harding about blogging as a woman and what net hate is really about

* Anita Sarkeesian's Feminist Frequency about Tropes vs Women in videogames. I can strongly recommend to at least watch Women as background decoration, but all her videos are excellent.

* For a non-western take on feminism, there is brilliant Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie's TED talk.

* How stereotypes affect rape reporting for everyone (warning, potential triggers in article)

* On men and intimacy and why feminism matters here

In the last thread we covered most of the above topics, and also prostitution, women in sports and rape (fun times!). We've had lots of other things discussed too, but these are some of the main ones.

Some Rather Random Introductory reading for the interested:

* Whipping Girl: A Transsexual Woman on Sexism and the Scapegoating of Femininity - Julia Serano. A very modern and frankly amazing take on sexism, trans-hate and why femininity is so scorned. If you decide to ever only read one and only one book on feminism, this should be it.

* The Second Sex - Simone de Beauvoir. The grande dame of feminism kicking the shit out of other philosophers and taking names.

* Feminism is for everybody - bell hooks. Not all men? Well yes all men, says bell hooks, and yes to everybody, cos everybody should really get a grip and a clue.

* Bloody weekend - Helen Zahavi. For those angry moments when you want to get your "Die sexist shit" T-shirt out. This is it. Don't get mad, get even!

* The Bloody Chamber - Angela Carter. For a more intellectual look at women's agency and sexuality in literature. What if women didn't have to "go under" if they acknowledged their own agencies and eroticism? Angela Carter has the answer.

As my dear anklebiters are bothering me for lunch, I shall have to finish this post on a proper WTFBBQ note with Hey Ladies *wink wink* and be back with feminist-themed Con reports*** later!

***including an explanation for the title. :P

Edited to include more links and material 27 Aug 2014.

[brook]

yay the thread is back!

I need a nights sleep behind me before I can attempt any con reports but I'll do my best tomorrow. There were some really great (and some not as great) panels and between us we probably saw most of them so looking forward to reports on the ones I missed.

[Lyanna Stark]

So yes, Con report with the feminist slant everyone was surely waiting for with bated breath at the edge of their seats!!!

First, thanks to Liffguard for the title. He told me about this panel he'd been to when they'd discussed among other things Fantasy authors' tendency to ignore such things as some sort of agriculture to sustain the population. (Liffguard if you want to tell the story properly feel free, it was great :P ) During a panel, this trainwreck guy apparently stood up and claimed that "This was a Time of War!" as if that explains everything.

This works on so many examples: Why is there nobody growing anything? A Time of War! Why no realism as to how armies are put together and what it used to look like when they marched? It was a Time of War! How could ten thousand men walk 80 miles through the snow in four hours? It was a Time of War! Why are there no women in the novel, at all? It was a Time of War! During Time of War, there are no crops, no realism and no women needed. I've seen examples of this type of reasoning in the books threads especially, as if considerations to stuff like food supplies, social mores (no, women don't automatically engage in polygamous marriages for the Good of the Species as soon as there is a War on) and realistic view on logistics and economy.**

This is such a brilliant excuse for everything. You have complaints? It was a Time of War so anything goes and every complaint is automatically voided. I'm kinda envious I didn't get to witness this particular trainwreck first hand.

This writeup contains very mild spoilers for McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan saga.

Panels on Feminist Stuff 1: The un-feminine heroine

The first panel with honest to God feminist themes I attended was the "Daughters of Buffy" which dealt with how Buffy the Vampire slayer had inspired mainly subsequent TV-series, but also other media, when it comes to having a strong female lead as the head of a mixed ensemble cast. Further, Buffy is a female lead who is also allowed to have feminine sides while still being an efficient heroine. Buffy also had an esemble cast with several supporting roles where women were allowed to take up space, and where meaningful interaction between female characters took place (i.e. women occasionally talking about others things than men). The consensus was that there weren't that many natural followers to Buffy, or at least that there has been a gap for quite a while. Orphan Black was the only series people agreed on were what they could tell a direct descendant of Buffy.

When it came to UF the panelists had a few more examples and Seanan McGuire's In Cryptid series was mentioned (I remember that since I had considered buying it a few weeks before) and especially its heroine Verity Price as a heroine who was allowed to not just be kick-ass, but to show femininity as well. Something that Buffy is allowed to do. Otherwise, the panelists agreed that it is quite rare for girls or women to be depicted as resourceful heroines while also being allowed to show feminine sides. Verity in particular is a ballroom dancer and according to the panelist this was something that ended up being useful to her.

The discussion about how female heroines often have to have their traditionally feminine sides suppressed in order to seem "heroic", or how many female heroes end up basically "women doing guys' stuff" (basically written as a traditional man's man but with a woman's name plastered on at the last minute).

This was touched upon again in the panel I laughingly renamed "Academic Sex", which was actually called "Sex and Desire in literature" and featured academics having 15-20 min talks about sexuality and related subjects in Robin Hobb's "Tawny Man" trilogy, Lois McMaster Bujold's novels (mainly the Vorkosigan ones) and in China Mieville's fiction.

The lady talking about McMaster Bujold also mentioned how very often, heroines are either de-feminised (basically a dude with a woman's name) or they don't get to do the exciting stuff. Feminine heroines might get to be magic and shoot some lightning, but ultimately they are rarely allowed to be warriors, explorers or politicians. These efficient roles seem too often to be incompatible with women characters who are described as feminine. The Bujold researcher used the character of Cordelia to show that it is possible to show women as both warriors and explorers, how they can be well rounded and have feminine traits without being either super-feminised, objectified or being a man with a woman's name on.

Panels on Feminist Stuff 2: The emasculated hero

Another thing that was brought up more in the Academic Sex panel was the emasculation of male characters and the male hero. With the Robin Hobb discussion this was touched upon tangentially, and it really came to the forefront with Bujold. Just as there is an issue with female characters not being allowed to be feminine, male characters in SFF are often these hypermasculine dudes who can run 50 miles in the snow while carrying the Damsel in distress and 80 lbs of Important Equipment on his back without breaking a sweat. He also wields his huge....sword! like only a man's man can. Right? Right? RAWR in a Time of War, etc.

However, just like Bujold blurs the gender lines with the female heroes she does the same with the men. Aral Vorkosigan is instantly established as being bisexual and Miles Vorkosigan is Tyrion, but nicer. In general, a lot of the male heroes are somehow damaged, one way or another, to avoid them being these RAWR superhero dudes with massive, raised, unyielding, unrelenting swords of magic power that we very often see, if you pardon the metaphor overload.***

Tyrion may be said to be a hero with a somewhat similar emasculating trait, although he seems to be struggling to make up for that by being a pretty shitty man's man in other regards. Samwell Tarly might be another one. In general though I think that in my experience, emasculated male heroes are almost rarer than the feminine but efficient female hero.

Panels on Feminist stuff 3: Sexism in fandom.

I dunno, but the expression I got from this panel was that our fandom must be at the forefront cos Jesus onna pogostick, this was both basic and kinda sad? Sure, there's the show forum which is like a Pit of Doom but even the book forums are not all that brutal anymore. This panel gave us the advice to talk about sexism and feminism within the fandom (which we have been doing for quite a while) and to make it unacceptable for arseholes to be, well, sexist arseholes. Which I think we are at least pretty good at, even if perhaps it's not yet time to pat our own backs and retire for good. :P

I'm also still sad we didn't get the mansplaining dude's explanation to what he *really* wanted to say (he got interrupted by the panelists). He sounded like he was really on to a proper rant back there. Ah well.

Trainwrecks!! Apart from that we did get some proper mansplaining in the "Academic sex" panel with first one dude asking why the Bene Gesserit were not brought up (I have no idea how he missed the integral part wherein they all work to put a man in power but then I am but a young girl and know nothing of the Times of War.) We also had a proper trainwreck dude who was mightily upset that the Bujold researcher did not bring up the novel Ethan of Athos featuring a planet of homosexual men of which some where homemakers because men doing domestic chores is...I was going to say "normal" but I have nothing. He also ranted on about Heinlein and why was he not brought up? I suppose if you only read "sex" out of all the words discussing the panel you could kinda end up there. He then made the legendary comment that maybe Heinlein "could be considered sexist by modern sensibilities". Trainwreck managed.

In the Buffy panel there was only one mild trainwreck which was a dude standing up telling the mostly female audience that *of course* we were all looking in the wrong place for strong women, we should be looking to web comics! Not TV-series, books or movies.

** apart from being offensive in general, this sort of reasoning "It was a Time of War!" also strikes me as obliquely meant to offend the men and women engaged in actual soldiery as opposed to all the armchair generals focusing on unrealistic heroism from their safe living rooms.

*** In the dissection of romance novels "Beyond Heaving Bosoms" this was simply referred to as "The Wang of Mighty Loving".

[denstorebog]

All I want to add for now is, whenever these panels are streamed on Twitch.tv, which they sometimes are from bigger cons ... do not go into Twitch chat. Do. Not. Do It. Do NOT do it. Just ... don't do it. It makes any sense of progress on the subject over the last decade seem like a long-lost echo, a barf stain on a manly boot.

Look, all I'm saying is ... Twitch chat is not the place you want to be during these panels.

[KiDisaster]

So over the last few days we had ourselves a good old fashioned shit storm in the realm of video game journalism, complete with witch hunts, doxxing and all kinds of unsubstantiated accusations. Sexism and Men's Rights Activism were abundant and disgusting as usual, and I fear that as a result of everything that happened those horrible people are going to have more ammo to throw down range at women in gaming/geek culture (I think we had a thread specifically on that at one point but I can't seem to find it).

For those of you who are unaware, Zoe Quinn is a video game developer who created Depression Quest, a choose-your-own-adventure style video game meant to educate people about depression and give them an idea of what it's like to suffer with it. I haven't played the game myself so I can't give an opinion on it, but regardless of how good or not good the game may be I'd say educating people about depression is a pretty commendable goal. Anyway, the game was getting really good feedback from a number of gaming publications, and ended up getting on Steam through Greenlight. The trouble began when a man, claiming to be Quinn's ex-boyfriend, posted a blog saying that she had cheated on him with five different men who were all gaming journalists at publications who then gave her game good reviews. Obviously suggesting she slept with them in exchange for these reviews.

Now as far as I know, his claims have never been verified. But people went ape shit over it anyway, using Quinn to make their typical shitty points about how women in gaming are nothing but attention-whores and other asinine comments. Now if that had been the end of it, it all would have probably blown over pretty quickly, but alas it was not to be. The real shit storm began when posts and threads about the topic started getting deleted across Reddit, The Escapist, other gaming websites/forums and even fucking 4chan of all places. On top of that, Quinn (or someone impersonating her as I believe she has claimed) started issuing DMCA claims to have YouTube videos about the topic taking down for copyright violations even though they broke no copyright law (YouTube's DMCA system is infamously exploitable).

As we all know, the internet hates nothing more then it hates censorship and Reddit, 4chan and other sites exploded with Zoe Quinn hatred. Mods on these various sites claimed they were doing it to prevent the witch hunting and personal attacks that had already begun, and I completely side with them here, but at this point the Streisand Effect had kicked into full gear. Boards were flooding with screencaps of conversations and summaries of what Quinn had allegedly done faster than mods could delete them, subreddits devoted to discussing the issue were created (and Reddit began banning those subreddits which made things even worse). MRAs, chauvinists and horrible people of all sorts came out and had a fucking field day with the whole thing. Quinn was apparently doxxed, then accused of faking the doxxing to make herself look like a victim and the whole thing was a sea of horrific sexist shit.

It's the kind of thing that makes me ashamed to be a part of this whole geek/gamer culture. Now if Quinn did sleep with journalists in exchange for good reviews then I can only condemn her actions and the actions of the journalists in question, but there is literally no evidence that it happened beyond the claims of a bitter ex-boyfriend. The one journalist everyone seems to focus on, I guess because he is specifically named, is a writer for Kotaku who never even wrote a review on her game.

So I guess now we can look forward to Quinn being brought up every time a female developer starts to make a name for herself in the gaming world. Questions about whether she slept with the people who gave her game good reviews to pop up. The best part are the anti-feminists claiming Quinn is the reason women aren't taken seriously in the industry. Right...it's not the fact that you all hate women or anything.

So I don't know if any of you followed this whole thing, or if you have any thoughts on it or if it's even worth discussing in this thread. All I know is it made me sick, and ashamed to be associated with these kinds of people who would torment a woman for days on end, release her personal information and nude pictures of her that should have remained private, all over an accusation for which there is not a shred of fucking evidence.

I fucking hate people sometimes.

---------------------------------------------------------------

ETA: Great recap Lyanna :) Also I need to learn to play an instrument so I can start a band called "The Wang of Mighty Loving".

[Galactus]

but ultimately they are rarely allowed to be warriors, explorers or politicians.

I'd disagree on the "politicians" part. Mind, "politician" is itself a bit weird (I think it's Ursula K. Leguin who in Left Hand of Darkness notes that politicians tends to be seen as "feminine" in the first place) Now, the *kind* of politician tends to be restricted a bit, but even in fantasy stories we have queens, ambitious duchesses or whatever. (although politicians don't tend to be cast as traditionally "heroic" in the first place)

I'm just coming off a long discussion involving female characters in the Gundam franchise (and especially the Universal Century shows) and how Tomino A) Obviously has HUGE ISSUES in upper case letters with women and B) Still occasionally turns out female characters that are pretty cool.

Oh yeah, and Creative Assembly released a Rome 2 DLC about female warriors. (For context, I'd note that pretty much everything CA does gets criticized for being historically inaccurate, including the types of helmets, so I think they're kind of underestimating how nitpicky fans can get)

[Theda Baratheon]

Just quickly popping in to echo how wonderful Angela Carter's The Bloody Chamber is. Really great stuff.

[denstorebog]

KiDisaster,

I followed this pretty closely yesterday. One detail that's worth adding is that Depression Quest, the game that made Quinn 'famous' in the first place, also made her a target when it came on Greenlight ... for no discernible reason other than that it was made by a woman. Quinn, in other words, was already a target before this, so this is basically a repeat of a nightmare that she's already been through.

Anyway, I did what no man/woman should ever do and went on 4chan to see what took place there. It was absolutely impossible to follow or describe. For those who don't know it, the 4chan 'forums' are basically huge, nightmarish versions of our own "The Thread That Never Ends", except people can post anonymously. There was a wide range of opinions being expressed, and I did notice that a lot of people made sure to repeat over and over that this should not be made about Quinn, but about the gaming industry.

So the story is actually three stories:

1 - Gaming industry is corrupt like every other industry on the planet and should examine itself

2 - Woman allegedly sleeps with gaming journalists, gets slutshamed by thousands of geeks

3 - Huge censorship debacle erupts as the so-called bastions of free speech - 4chan, Reddit, etc. - experiences, well, extreme censorship.

I'd like to think that this story became so big because of #1 and #3, which would be kind of justifiable,. but we all know that's it's not the case. Instead, #1 and #3 are being used as justifications for simply having fun with tearing Quinn down. Apparently, the original Depression Quest debacle involved someone 'from the internet' showing up at her house, but I'm not sure what happened there. This is a horrible situation for her.

[Lyanna Stark]

OMG U guys, here I was all positive and shit. :P

I guess this just goes to show what we thought was feminism 101 and stuff like "haven't we moved past this?" and apparently we haven't. I feel like I am missing "having a stiff drink" emoticon right about now, but the beer one seems inadequate to demonstrate my feelings on this matter. Hell I'd take the Tolkien society's mead.

I'd disagree on the "politicians" part. Mind, "politician" is itself a bit weird (I think it's Ursula K. Leguin who in Left Hand of Darkness notes that politicians tends to be seen as "feminine" in the first place) Now, the *kind* of politician tends to be restricted a bit, but even in fantasy stories we have queens, ambitious duchesses or whatever. (although politicians don't tend to be cast as traditionally "heroic" in the first place)

That's partly my fault cos of being shite at taking notes. :P I can't remember what she had as third, only that it was something involving power so my shorthand ended up being "politician". And sure, while women get to scheme a bit and stuff, it is more rare to see extremely efficient female politicians and rulers (imho) at least. Especially ones that don't use their sex appeal to get ahead femme fatale style. Hence why I think Chrisjen Avasarala in the Expanse series is so so great. She's absolutely hardcore and yet cannot be mistaken for a man renamed as a woman.

Just quickly popping in to echo how wonderful Angela Carter's The Bloody Chamber is. Really great stuff.

Hah, I thought you might. :D I thought of you when I posted it!

Can't remember if I linked you that essay of Sansa and how she fits within the female erotic in Angela Carter's "The Bloody Chamber" but I think I did. For everyone else, here is brashcandy's excellent "Awakening the Beast: Female Sexuality and Empowerment in Sansa's arc" part 1 and part 2: the courtship of Mr Lyon. Can be read in a useful fashion together with this companion piece by Tze also linking into women embracing the beastly part of their personality.

EDIT: If you have stuff you think should be listed among resources on page one, poke me, post about it here or send me an angry PM. Whichever floats your boat.

EDIT2: Fuck grammar. Seriously!

[danro]

As for the hypermasculinity of walking 50 miles in the snow, etc.

My wife recently walked 100km in less than 24 hours. Apparently it didn't require male genitalia.

And where was I? I'm glad you asked. I was at home taking care of the kid.

[lessthanluke]

Love the thread title and all your posts Lyanna. I shall now go back to lurking this thread.

[David Selig]

When it came to UF the panelists had a few more examples and Seanan McGuire's In Cryptid series was mentioned (I remember that since I had considered buying it a few weeks before) and especially its heroine Verity Price as a heroine who was allowed to not just be kick-ass, but to show femininity as well. Otherwise, the panelists agreed that it is quite rare for girls or women to be depicted as resourceful heroines while also being allowed to show feminine sides. Verity in particular is a ballroom dancer and according to the panelist this was something that ended up being useful to her.

I really loved that about this series. Unfortunately in the second book the ballroom dancing had a lesser role and in the third the series switched to a male main character who is more conventional and IMO much more boring. Though Verity will be book in Book 5 IIRC.

The Bujold researcher used the character of Cordelia to show that it is possible to show women as both warriors and explorers, how they can be well rounded and have feminine traits without being either super-feminised, objectified or being a man with a woman's name on.

Yeah, Cordelia is an excellent example. I really wish Bujold would write another book with her as a main character in the future. I love Miles, but I love her even more.

[Lyanna Stark]

As for the hypermasculinity of walking 50 miles in the snow, etc.

My wife recently walked 100km in less than 24 hours. Apparently it didn't require male genitalia.

And where was I? I'm glad you asked. I was at home taking care of the kid.

:lol: Sounds to me you got the better deal!

But yes, one would think that with Real Life men being a varied bunch, literary heroes would reflect that fact more. At least that the edges become more "blurred" regarding what is and what isn't acceptable behaviour.

Are fictional men lagging behind RL men (Real Men sorry just had to write that :P )?

And if that is the case, is there a certain angst and fear about emasculating male characters in some way?

Love the thread title and all your posts Lyanna. I shall now go back to lurking this thread.

Awwh I am so glad you like them. :D Lurk away but don't feel like you cannot post.

I really loved that about this series. Unfortunately in the second book the ballroom dancing had a lesser role and in the third the series switched to a male main character who is more conventional and IMO much more boring. Though Verity will be book in Book 5 IIRC.

Yeah, Cordelia is an excellent example. I really wish Bujold would write another book with her as a main character in the future. I love Miles, but I love her even more.

I heard some stuff about that as well, and it touches upon that somehow male heroes seem to still very often be more conventional than female heroes. Are we perhaps seeing a trend where female characters get more wiggle room while their male counterparts are stuck in muscly huge swordwielding land? It sort of seems like that to me!

I mean, looking at some of the dudes in novels at least in Fantasy novels, they seem to be mostly man's men, which if they are not swordwielding musclemen at least manage to be potent seducer of wimmins. Kvothe from Kingkiller Chronicles, Darian Frey from the Ketty Jay series, in the Malazan universe I don't think we especially see any dudebros who aren't badass in multiple ways and in WOT the menfolk aren't of the braidtugging variety if you get my drift. In Bakker's world men are definitely men's men on account of being both physically and metaphysically superior.

GRRM has Tyrion and Samwell Tarly as brilliant emasculated heroes. Scott Lynch may get somewhat of a pass for short, skinny, cack-handed fighter and extreme monogamous Locke Lamora when it comes to creating a somewhat emasculated hero. Locke strikes me as more of a Miles Vorkosigan type hero who relies on brains and other people's brawn more than anything else.

Another interesting emasculated and very damaged hero is Abercrombie's Glokta, who is an amazing character and I think falls somewhere along the lines of Miles Vorkosigan, Tyrion and Locke but seems to be far worse for wear than any of them. Funnily enough, most of the other of Abercrombie's male characters are definitely the muscledude swordfighter badass, but Glokta is the epic character we all remember, I think.

NOTE SOME MILD SPOILERS FOR "CORDELIA'S HONOR"

Cordelia is indeed a great character. Especially since she seems to manage to empower other female characters (Drou, Kareen and Alys Vorpatil) come to mind around her and completely avoids being a Unique Snowflake type of woman. Plus I still think the Cordelia and Aral romance is one of the best I have ever read. It's so completely based on understanding, mutual respect and amazingly subtly written attraction** instead of the Magic Hoo Hoo immidiately entrances the Wang of Mighty Loving by its hotness***, which is the scenario in most romance novels.

** it made me smile in glee every time I spotted the subtle clues. So rare in it's complete lack of in-your-face stuff.

*** again "Beyond Heaving Bosoms" describes this in some detail

EDITED to include sensible examples instead of just random rambling.

[Deedles]

Thanks Lyanna. Great thread and I'm delighted to see it back.

I'm mightily depressed at the moment. Ireland's annual abortion debacle is taking place at the moment.

In a nutshell. A minor, non English native speaker, asylum seeker, was raped and turned up at a family planning clinic very distressed and looking for an abortion at 8 weeks. There seems to have been administrative... Errors... And nothing happened (she may have needed a special visa to travel). She represented at ? 22 weeks, suicidal, and still looking for an abortion. A panel of psychiatrists agreed she was suicidal. So, at 24 weeks a C section was done.

I'm utterly disgusted at the state of reproductive rights, and frankly, a little afraid of our medical community as I don't trust they would prioritise me over a fetus.

Some links.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/why-all-eyes-should-be-on-the-baby-who-survived-our-abortion-laws-1.1902926. Pro-life from our "paper of record".

A somewhat more informative article. http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/woman-in-abortion-case-tells-of-suicide-attempt-1.1901256

And another papers take. http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/young-woman-in-abortion-case-got-lost-in-the-system-30521491.html

[Deedles]

On the panels, I'm still very sad over a China Mievilles academic sex treatment. Such rich material for such an utterly dry talk.

[danro]

Are fictional men lagging behind RL men (Real Men sorry just had to write that :P )?

And if that is the case, is there a certain angst and fear about emasculating male characters in some way?

.

That angst is definitely very real in many cultures. Despite all the advantages bestowed on men by patriarchy, it can be just as limiting for us as for women. (Believe it or not, while liftning weights, shooting guns and making money is all well and good, sometimes it's nice to do something else. And drinking is no panacea.)

Reality is plenty emasculating for most men. I think a lot of men party turn to SFF for the power fantasies and shy away from "weak" characters.

[Galactus]

Yeah, I think there's an intensely strong fear among men of somehow "not measuring up". And sop people escape to power fantasies... That just keep reinforcing the impossible standards.

[brook]

On the panels, I'm still very sad over a China Mievilles academic sex treatment. Such rich material for such an utterly dry talk.

Yeah I was expecting much better from that one.

The Hobb talk on the same panel reminded me again of how much I'd loved her works and inspired me to plan a re-read, the Mieville one just turned me off completely.

[Lyanna Stark]

Deedles! Great to have you here and OMG suck on the news. Sometimes it just makes you wonder if these things will ever change and become better. :bang:

On the panels, I'm still very sad over a China Mievilles academic sex treatment. Such rich material for such an utterly dry talk.

I know, it was extremely dull. The only really interesting part (or maybe the only time I was actually not in a six-syllable word induced coma) was the very short mention of the Lovers from the Scar. Such a fabulous inversion of patriarchal power got perhaps two sentences?

Some spoilers from the Scar, and a quotation:

The Lovers are described as a strange ruling couple. They are only referred to as "The Lovers" and singularly as "The Lover".

"On the boss's island, a man who loves strongly enough will cut his woman's face..."

"He'll mark her, to make her hus, inscribe his property, notch it like wood. Spoil her just enough that no other will want her."

"Love, or lust, or something, some combination, overtook the boss. He courted the newcomer and quickly claimed her, with the masculine assertiveness he had been trained into. And by all accounts she welcomed his attentions and returned them, and she was his concubine. Until the day he decided that she was his entirely, and with a kind of clumsy bravado, he drew his knife after coition and cut her face."

"She was still, she let him do it...and then she took the knife and cut him back."

(Only China Mieville would refer to sex as coition btw. 0.o )

The Lovers are really weird and wonderful and just all around strange and odd. But yes, even they came across less as obsessive knifeplay fetishists than just plain boring in this panel. :P Which is a sad thing, since like in Angela Carter's "Bloody Chamber" short stories, I think it establishes that women who engage with and embrace their beastly natures can use that as a way to reach a state of reciprocity and empowerment.

Also, anyone who hasn't should read The Scar for the pure reason that it is a really great novel, if occasionally a bit pretentious and demanding frequent usage of a dictionary. (I will always love ab-dead instead of undead tho. Elegant.)

Yeah I was expecting much better from that one.

The Hobb talk on the same panel reminded me again of how much I'd loved her works and inspired me to plan a re-read, the Mieville one just turned me off completely.

The Hobb talk was so good I put her back on my to read list for serious after my debacle with translation issues a long time ago. It's probably better that someone who's actually read The Tawny Man does a write up on that since I have not. :p

[Lyanna Stark]

Splitting post since otherwise TL:DR

That angst is definitely very real in many cultures. Despite all the advantages bestowed on men by patriarchy, it can be just as limiting for us as for women. (Believe it or not, while liftning weights, shooting guns and making money is all well and good, sometimes it's nice to do something else. And drinking is no panacea.)

Reality is plenty emasculating for most men. I think a lot of men party turn to SFF for the power fantasies and shy away from "weak" characters.

Yeah, I think there's an intensely strong fear among men of somehow "not measuring up". And sop people escape to power fantasies... That just keep reinforcing the impossible standards.

Aha, so instant confirmation for my theory!! :D

At the same time, characters like Glokta, Tyrion, Locke Lamora and Miles Vorkosigan are so extremely popular and definitely not just among female fans, I imagine. Are they anomalies or Unique Snowflake characters or something else?

ETA: Great recap Lyanna :) Also I need to learn to play an instrument so I can start a band called "The Wang of Mighty Loving".

OMG how did I miss this before? You absolutely must start this band like yesterday. :D