The return of the Feminism thread - Time of War edition

[Galactus]

I should note that the anime inbdustry seems to condense a lotof stuff that's in manga, the manga industry is huge, and with agigantic spread of subject matter and such. What gets animated tends to be far more.... Limited? Pandering? Than what might get published (at least outside the major magazines) (ironically original anime materal tends to be a bit moe adventurous than adapted stuff, not always f course, but often)

Another aspect that really makes me cringe is treatment of outright gender nonconformity in much of it, I assume the problematic representations are worse in shonen though.

.. Yes and no? Gender nonconformity is often feishishized, sometimes mocked, and so forth. The manga/anime industry clearly is a lot more *interested* in the subject than the equivalent wester media, whether or not they handle it any better is of course up for debate.

I certainly don't think somehting like Wandering Son would be a thing in the equivalent western industries. (whether or not it succeeds, the fact that i actually got adapted is pretty impressive to me)

[karaddin]

Yeah that was poorly worded, I wasn't intending to imply it's only bad but that when it is bad it really makes me cringe. I've got Wandering Son open in a tab on crunchyroll to watch when I'm in the right mood after hearing good things.

I'm more thinking about a number of antagonist characters in Bleach for example who all seem to have been brought back at the same time as another was introduced in an effort to make me stop reading it (which I really should do...)

There are also more mixed ones where the characters may be treated both as a punch line and a character on the good side, but from my perspective the good isn't outweighing the bad. I'm thinking one character from I think it was called DG.

But when they are genuinely good representations it is better than anything we are getting in 99.99% of western media. Definitely not meant to be a blanket condemnation.

[Galactus]

There are also more mixed ones where the characters may be treated both as a punch line and a character on the good side,

Yeah, that seems to be pretty common for minorities in general in manga/anime.

EDIT: Like say Haruhi's mom/dad in Ouran High School Host Club. Clearly treated as a sympatethic character and a great parent, but still at least in part a joke.

[Lily Valley]

ly, thanks for the cordelia's honor bits. initially thought y'all were talking about king lear and responded hurhnwtf?

Thought y'all were still taling about Buffy and had the same reaction.

[Galactus]

Thought y'all were still taling about Buffy and had the same reaction.

Me too :p

[Zorral]

Interesting reports and discussions. Thank you. Particularly for It's a Time of War. That business with the vast unpopulated lands of Middle Earth, which I brought up here, even, in a Tolkien discussion, and sure nuff, guys informed me I was Wrong and It Was A Time of War. :cool4:

One does fear however that it will never be time over for feminism 101: as an another example, when the inevitable dismissals of all the female characters of Boardwalk Empire are made, and women disagree, because many of we women -- women who also watch the series -- like seeing the female characters, what concern them, their relationships -- and quite a few of their scenes pass the Bechdel Test easily -- and women and their issues such as sufferage, reproductive information and rights, work, etc. are part of the historical fabric of this historical drama. But no, as far as the guys are concerned the only place for women in Boardwalk Empire that don't immediately pull it into non bloody boring interludes are the naked or nearly naked females who function as a scene's wall paper -- or as bloody punching bags to show badassery of Good Bad Guys. If one says these things, they are dismissed as, "The feminists are showing up. Har Har Har."

The other day, after a recapitulation of why, unlike what so many alternate history fans like to think, Wellington would by all accounts and purposes failed in the new world -- with many facts that show he would have, and not a single fact to show otherwise -- or even, in fact, that he ever was formally requested to come to the U.S. in the War of 1812 -- a well respected male sf author stepped in to set me straight by repeating everything I just said. What?

How can one tell when it is poor socialization vs just mansplain?

BTW -- my husband just discovered the term "mansplain". He loved it so much that "I just must mansplain to you, dear wife, what mansplaining is." Just one more reason I congratulate myself for having had the good sense to marry him -- great sense of humor. :)

[Commodore]

she's like, a feminist and stuff

[brook]

So... what exactly is your point?

[karaddin]

Commodore hates Beyonce I believe is the point. Pretty sure he's tried to link bomb on her in the past too unless I'm confusing him with some other inane post.

[brook]

Just wouldn't have picked him as a rad fem...

[Gears of the Beast]

she's like, a feminist and stuff

There are so many great examples of feminist hypocrisy and you have to pick one that isn't hypocrisy at all. 1/10 no effort.

For future reference check out /r/TumblrInAction.

[Commodore]

Commodore hates Beyonce I believe is the point. Pretty sure he's tried to link bomb on her in the past too unless I'm confusing him with some other inane post.

I probably have posted something about her before. .

That her strip show passes as a demonstration of feminism or talent doesn't speak well of our culture.

Her act seems to define feminism as the ability/willingness to get a man off.

She's perhaps one notch above Minaj (who is a black caricature bordering on minstrel show), which isn't saying much.

Alicia Keys or Whitney Houston she is not.

[Gears of the Beast]

I probably have posted something about her before. .

That her strip show passes as a demonstration of feminism or talent doesn't speak well of our culture.

Her act seems to define feminism as the ability/willingness to get a man off.

She's perhaps one notch above Minaj (who is a black caricature bordering on minstrel show), which isn't saying much.

Alicia Keys or Whitney Houston she is not.

Just because someone identifies as a feminist doesn't mean anything they do must therefore be considered a "demonstration of feminism". As far as I know there isn't anything about her act that is in conflict with feminism.

[brook]

Whitney Houston she is not.

Better a woman be used as a punching bag than demonstrate sexuality?

[karaddin]

I probably have posted something about her before. .

That her strip show passes as a demonstration of feminism or talent doesn't speak well of our culture.

Her act seems to define feminism as the ability/willingness to get a man off.

She's perhaps one notch above Minaj (who is a black caricature bordering on minstrel show), which isn't saying much.

Alicia Keys or Whitney Houston she is not.

I said this to you last time. She isn't speaking to you. She isn't speaking to me either. That we don't get her doesn't mean that she is a failure or lacking in talent, it's just honed for a different audience. She speaks to black women of reclaiming and owning their bodies and their sexuality in a way that other performers normally don't, and black women get a whole lot of mixed and awful messages about their bodies and sexuality that need countering like this.

Obviously I can't speak as an authority on this, I listen to black women who find her music incredibly meaningful and empowering. Obviously it's not all black women either, I understand that bell hooks is not a fan for reasons you pretend to care about, but that she speaks to some is enough for me to listen to someone like Janet Mock when she speaks of how important it is having voices like Beyonce.

[Lyanna Stark]

I probably have posted something about her before. .

That her strip show passes as a demonstration of feminism or talent doesn't speak well of our culture.

Her act seems to define feminism as the ability/willingness to get a man off.

She's perhaps one notch above Minaj (who is a black caricature bordering on minstrel show), which isn't saying much.

Alicia Keys or Whitney Houston she is not.

So someone who is outspoken about self-identifying as a feminist is bad because....?? reasons?

This is totally idiotic. Beoynce is pretty spot on liberal feminist. There is nothing wrong with that. I might not agree with everything she does or says, but that doesn't mean she's automatically a Bad Feminist. I don't know he stance on trans-women inclusing and a few other things, but in general she seems inclined towards inclusions, not exclusion, and that seems like a good thing to me.

Plus the possibly most important fact: because Bey is outspoken about being a feminist, more young women will be inspired to become feminists, and it has become more ok to self-identify as a feminist. The net good of this cannot even be quantified. Beyonce can reach people that theoretical works on feminism and Tumblr feminism would never reach.

I'm also not sure why Alicia Keyes and Whitney would be better icons for feminism.

[danro]

If anything, the male genitalia would get in the way.

Ain't that the thruth! I've done a few long marches (Nijmegen 4-daagse and others) and let me tell you in no uncertain terms: they are a serious design flaw when it comes to extreme distance running or hiking.

[Gears of the Beast]

Speaking of Beyonce, how did you guys feel about that "ban bossy" campaign? Sorry if its been discussed but I'm legitimately curious.

[TrueMetis]

Speaking of Beyonce, how did you guys feel about that "ban bossy" campaign? Sorry if its been discussed but I'm legitimately curious.

My first thought is that "bossy" is pretty much the tamest insult ever, I mean is that really an insult people are throwing around past 2nd grade? I get what their trying to do but they aren't doing it very well.

[brook]

Well I was under the impression that it was targeting the way we speak to very young girls in ways which discourage them from speaking out/taking leadership so it seems natural that the term they choose is lame/used by children.

I'll admit I haven't paid enough attention to the campaign to have strong feelings either way. I agree with what they are trying to do in principle but I can't really comment on what they are doing about it.