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Arya's honor.


willofDorne

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I don't think even she believes the second description.

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“Give me the cup,” he told the Stranger, “for I shall drink deep. And if it tastes of gold and lion’s blood, so much the better. As I cannot be the hero, let me be the monster, and lesson them in fear in place of love.”
Mercy mouthed the last lines along with him. They were better lines than hers, and apt besides.

I don't think cold blooded murderer and traumatized child are mutually exclusive.

She is also not someone who only kills those she thinks deserve it. The Bolton guard had nothing to with deserving it or not. He was in her way.

She contemplated killing Gendry. He certainly did not deserve to die. She decided against it only because she felt she couldn't get away with it not that it would not be justice. She also later thought of killing Hot Pie. This would not cross the mind of someone who had a strong sense of justice.

Speaking of not killing because she couldn't get away with it that happened again with the woman who stole from her. Deserves doesn't mean much when she can come up with flimsy reasons for killing so I think it reflects more on the fact that killing is easy for her and became something she likes doing. She didn't kill that woman but she likely will kill Dunsen for simply stealing. Someone with a strong sense of justice would stop and think if that deserves death. They also would have given Dareon a semblance of a trial or have found a way to release him to a legal authority who has the right to sentence him.

I also think when it's said she cares about justice and the insurance man is used as an example what she actually did reflects the opposite. She came up with a flimsy reason-villain's beard. & kept trying to come up with reasons. That's not proof that she has a strong sense of justice. No, if she had she would have had a strong reason and wouldn't be looking for one and she would have asked the KM for proof of the man's crimes. She didn't. The KM said he may have done bad things but that doesn't matter. She accepted that. Also, I think the fact that she wanted to kill his guards ruins the justice argument.

But I think the justice argument doesn't make sense for the scenario she's in and what she's been through. GRRM was inspired by child soldiers.

So when you had first introduced Arya, you knew she was going to become an assassin?

Well she's not an assassin yet. You are assuming she is going to become one. She's an apprentice.

But she's already going around killing people and she's learned a lot of the secrets.

Not only in Ice and Fire — we also did this bit in the Wild Cards series, the whole thing of the child solider is a fascinating construct. We have this picture of children [as] so sweet and innocent. I think some of the recent history in Africa and some of the longer history have shown that under the right circumstances, they can become just as dangerous as men, and in some ways more dangerous. On some level, it’s almost a game to them.

http://observationdeck.io9.com/george-r-r-martin-the-complete-unedited-interview-886117845

By his own words for children in Arya's position they can be more dangerous than men and killing becomes almost a game to them. They like what they do. Many of them do worse things than Arya IRL and justice does not come into it. They actually have the tendency to commit atrocities not do justice. They become socialized and desensitized towards violence so it becomes easier and something they enjoy.

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This. I would add that she has become a cold-blooded killer who kills only those she deems "deserves" it. Kind of like Dexter, I suppose.

Deserves?

She thinks of killing the woman she sells her horse to when she isn't offered enough, that woman doesn't exactly strike as someone who "deserves" to die.

She's a cold-blooded murderer in my books.

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I don't think even she believes the second description.

Quote

“Give me the cup,” he told the Stranger, “for I shall drink deep. And if it tastes of gold and lion’s blood, so much the better. As I cannot be the hero, let me be the monster, and lesson them in fear in place of love.”

Mercy mouthed the last lines along with him. They were better lines than hers, and apt besides.

I don't think cold blooded murderer and traumatized child are mutually exclusive.

She is also not someone who only kills those she thinks deserve it. The Bolton guard had nothing to with deserving it or not. He was in her way.

She contemplated killing Gendry. He certainly did not deserve to die. She decided against it only because she felt she couldn't get away with it not that it would not be justice. She also later thought of killing Hot Pie. This would not cross the mind of someone who had a strong sense of justice.

Speaking of not killing because she couldn't get away with it that happened again with the woman who stole from her. Deserves doesn't mean much when she can come up with flimsy reasons for killing so I think it reflects more on the fact that killing is easy for her and became something she likes doing. She didn't kill that woman but she likely will kill Dunsen for simply stealing. Someone with a strong sense of justice would stop and think if that deserves death. They also would have given Dareon a semblance of a trial or have found a way to release him to a legal authority who has the right to sentence him.

I also think when it's said she cares about justice and the insurance man is used as an example what she actually did reflects the opposite. She came up with a flimsy reason-villain's beard. & kept trying to come up with reasons. That's not proof that she has a strong sense of justice. No, if she had she would have had a strong reason and wouldn't be looking for one and she would have asked the KM for proof of the man's crimes. She didn't. The KM said he may have done bad things but that doesn't matter. She accepted that. Also, I think the fact that she wanted to kill his guards ruins the justice argument.

But I think the justice argument doesn't make sense for the scenario she's in and what she's been through. GRRM was inspired by child soldiers.

http://observationdeck.io9.com/george-r-r-martin-the-complete-unedited-interview-886117845

By his own words for children in Arya's position they can be more dangerous than men and killing becomes almost a game to them. They like what they do. Many of them do worse things than Arya IRL and justice does not come into it. They actually have the tendency to commit atrocities not do justice. They become socialized and desensitized towards violence so it becomes easier and something they enjoy.

While I agree with the beginning of your post I disagree with the parts you wrote about Gendry and Hot Pie, she would never have killed them she was just an angry confused child who had nothing but time to think.

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While I agree with the beginning of your post I disagree with the parts you wrote about Gendry and Hot Pie, she would never have killed them she was just an angry confused child who had nothing but time to think.

The problem is that she contemplated doing it especially Gendry. She actually sized him up and compared his abilities to hers and if she would be able to kill him. Her reasoning for not doing it was not because of justice. The problem is also that she even thought of it instead of thinking well maybe I can get him to sympathize with me. No, her immediate solution was to kill. She thought he was too strong for her so she decided not to kill.

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She is screwed up. BUT she is interesting & bad ass. One of my favorite characters. I think she has her own sort of honor or code.

If this series is meant to tell us anything its that, just like IRL no one (pun intended) is all good or all bad.

She isn't a cold blooded murderer & she isn't the Batman of Westeros either.

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She is an angry and efficient killer, traumatized child, and tries to conflate her killing often with revenge and a sense of punishing those she deems worthy due to the crimes they have commited. However killing is also a tool to her and something she is good at, the soldier she killed to escape with Gendy and Hot Pie being an example of someone she killed who didn't necessarilly deserve it. I imagine she will kill more people in search of her goals who will not deserve it but it would be the efficient/deemed necessary by her for her to do.


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Joffrey definitely skewed her idea of justice when he cut her father's head off. Since that traumatizing moment she has been in survival mode and is told to be anything other than herself. Boy, Arry, Lumpyface, Weasel, No One, Squab, Salty, Cat of the Canals, Beth, The Blind Girl, The Ugly Little Girl, Mercy... She is forced to wear "masks" long before the Kindly Man places a real one on her face. When she is able to hide behind these masks it is easier to kill because she isn't Arya Stark of the honorable house Winterfell. Combine that with her now very skewed sense of what justice means, zero stability, her being driven by revenge, and then learning the ways of the Faceless Men, she's going to shed some blood. But in her eyes it is for justice. To kill in cold blood means you have no emotion in the act. Arya's desire to cross people off her list is driven by her emotions of hatred, her desire for revenge, and for justice. Her enthusiasm for self defense is helping her stay alive. The longer she is alive the more names she can cross off. She may have had thoughts of murdering people but she didn't actually do it. She just THOUGHT about it. It was purely for survival. Gendry found out her secret. Kill him or trust him? She chose to trust him. Her honor is with her family and she will do whatever it takes to avenge them.


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. To kill in cold blood means you have no emotion in the act. Arya's desire to cross people off her list is driven by her emotions of hatred, her desire for revenge, and for justice. Her enthusiasm for self defense is helping her stay alive. The longer she is alive the more names she can cross off. She may have had thoughts of murdering people but she didn't actually do it. She just THOUGHT about it. It was purely for survival. Gendry found out her secret. Kill him or trust him? She chose to trust him. Her honor is with her family and she will do whatever it takes to avenge them.

She was capable of killing without emotion since book 2. She did it then. In her latest chapter she is emotionally detached. I think she had moments early on where she was capable of acting that way but by twow it has become the forefront of her personality.

ETA: Also, her latest kills are all premeditated murder rather than crimes of passion or self defense.

Anyways, Dunsen is going to Braavos and is on her list. She's likely going to kill him. She will seek him out and get him into a position where she can kill him. It won't be because her life's at stake or any of her friends. She's going to kill him because he took Gendry's helm not because he's a terrible person.

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She was capable of killing without emotion since book 2. She did it then. In her latest chapter she is emotionally detached. I think she had moments early on where she was capable of acting that way but by twow it has become the forefront of her personality.

Anyways, Dunsen is going to Braavos and is on her list. She's likely going to kill him. She will seek him out and get him into a position where she can kill him. It won't be because her life's at stake or any of her friends. She's going to kill him because he took Gendry's helm not because he's a terrible person.

Capable maybe but who has she killed without emotion?

The stable boy? it was kill or be killed. survival mode. all her men were slain. i'd say her emotions were running pretty high.

Ser Lorch's men? again, kill or be killed. she even saves a few lives during (the end of) that battle.

Chiswyck the rapist? justice.

Weese the child abuser? justice. especially since she was the child.

Her last of 3 names? a ploy that helped her, her friends, and her captured Northmen escape.

The gate guard? kill or be killed. or worse, get recaptured by people who flay.

The Tickler? justice for the people he tortured.

Dareon the deserter? justice.

Dunsen, one of the Mountain's men? she has not killed. but im sure she could come up with a better reason to than him just stealing her friend's most prized possession.

The Mountain comes to mind when i try to think of someone who possibly kills without emotion. but i actually think he enjoys it.

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Capable maybe but who has she killed without emotion?

The stable boy? it was kill or be killed. survival mode. all her men were slain. i'd say her emotions were running pretty high.

Ser Lorch's men? again, kill or be killed. she even saves a few lives during (the end of) that battle.

Chiswyck the rapist? justice.

Weese the child abuser? justice. especially since she was the child.

Her last of 3 names? a ploy that helped her, her friends, and her captured Northmen escape.

The gate guard? kill or be killed. or worse, get recaptured by people who flay.

The Tickler? justice for the people he tortured.

Dareon the deserter? justice.

Dunsen, one of the Mountain's men? she has not killed. but im sure she could come up with a better reason to than him just stealing her friend's most prized possession.

The Mountain comes to mind when i try to think of someone who possibly kills without emotion. but i actually think he enjoys it.

Having a motive doesn't mean that it was done with emotion.

The Bolton guard was done without emotion. He did nothing to her. He could have been a nice man who had a family. It's not like he can tell Roose no I don't want to go when he called the men in his region. If he didn't do his job he would get flayed like that stable boy likely got flayed who she made take horses for her so she could flee.

She had no emotion while doing it and afterwards she said so what the rain will wash the blood off. Hot Pie was horrified.

ETA:Oh, and if one counts the Weasel soup she got Jaqen to kill a bunch of people one of whom Gendry liked. He was pissed at her. The Northmen were already going to overtake Harrenhal. Jaqen tried to tell her that.

She killed the insurance man who did nothing to her. That was another kill without emotion. She had to be stopped from killing his guards as well.

Daeron also did nothing to her. She just didn't like him but there was no emotional connection. If there was and he was say Jon Snow who had successfully deserted like he wanted to do she likely wouldn't have killed him.

Dunsen is already on her list meaning she already wants him dead. She didn't take him off. She never thinks hey maybe he doesn't deserve to die for stealing. Like I said it reflects her earlier wish to kill that woman simply for cheating her. The only reason why she didn't was because she realized that there would be too many witnesses not because she realized that it wasn't a good reason to murder someone.

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I think Arya has a great deal of honour. She is still enthusiastic about justice. Not sure about self-defense, since she's clearly traumatized by the loss of her family and lost a lot of hope for herself.



Honour is not the antithesis of ruthlessness or a willingness to kill with cause. She is still a girl who has kept to her code and her vows. I do not think it has gone unaltered by her situation, but deep inside she is still a Stark or Winterfell, no matter if the Faceless Men have no use for her brand of honour.







Capable maybe but who has she killed without emotion?


The stable boy? it was kill or be killed. survival mode. all her men were slain. i'd say her emotions were running pretty high.


Ser Lorch's men? again, kill or be killed. she even saves a few lives during (the end of) that battle.


Chiswyck the rapist? justice.


Weese the child abuser? justice. especially since she was the child.


Her last of 3 names? a ploy that helped her, her friends, and her captured Northmen escape.


The gate guard? kill or be killed. or worse, get recaptured by people who flay.


The Tickler? justice for the people he tortured.


Dareon the deserter? justice.


Dunsen, one of the Mountain's men? she has not killed. but im sure she could come up with a better reason to than him just stealing her friend's most prized possession.







This is how I see it. Arya has not killed just for gain or base enjoyment.



However, it is a progression she is going through. It started with a purely defensive kill (the stable boy).



The most morally questionable kill she has made is the "insurance man". He had nothing to do with her nor she with him; she carried out a contract killing to prove herself to her new commanders - were she a soldier, ordered to kill it would not be too different, only the motives behind it (which are not hers to question).


With Raff, it was still justice (since he killed Lommy), but she shows a degree of sly cunning and confidence that disturbs some; he was her prey.


Now, if she encounters Dunsen again, and slays him only because of a helmet, then that's questionable.



However, she let The Hound live; she took him off the death list before he was abandoned. That is a sign she still has some amount of mercy in her.








Queen and Goddess. Those who oppose this will die!






LONG MAY SHE REIGN ! HAILS ! \m/

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