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Is fAegon the last of the Blackfyre line of Targaryens? If so...


Bloodrobin

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They join a Targaryen because the color does not matter, black or red, a dragon is still a dragon.

The Blackfyres have fought the Targaryens 5 or 6 times before and now all of a sudden it is "whatever, they are both Dragons"?

That doesn't seem like the motives of a group of soldiers that upon their death dip their skull in gold and promise to keep them till they get back to Westeros under a Blackfyre.

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Actually, the GC was never made up out of Westerosi and Blackfyre loyalists only. The Essosi and the Summer Islander among the officers shouldn't get a fig about the Blackfyre cause, and the same seems to be true for Strickland, and the other exiles/descendants of exiles as well.



They want spoils of war (i.e. lands and castles), and perhaps revenge for old debts if they are actually of old noble blood from Westeros, but they are certainly not fighting for the Blackfyre cause.


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Actually, the GC was never made up out of Westerosi and Blackfyre loyalists only. The Essosi and the Summer Islander among the officers shouldn't get a fig about the Blackfyre cause, and the same seems to be true for Strickland, and the other exiles/descendants of exiles as well.

They want spoils of war (i.e. lands and castles), and perhaps revenge for old debts if they are actually of old noble blood from Westeros, but they are certainly not fighting for the Blackfyre cause.

No, but the leaders/ officers were. The guys at the bottom get no say on who, what, where and when they are fighting.

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It makes more sense to think that Serra is the Brightframe than a Blackfyre since she is from Lys.Illyrio could very well be a Blackfyre through his mother but if we follow the Henry VIII parallel Serra and Varys are Blackfyres but i dont think it could be said that the Blackfyre male line is extinct as long as Varys lives.

The male line becomes extinct once all male descendants of male descendants of male descendants, etc. have died without any living male descendant. If a female Blackfyre has a son, that son does not start a new male Blackfyre line, but is a male of a female Blackfyre line. So if Varys is the son of a Blackfyre mother, he is of a female Blackfyre line and not a male Blackfyre line.

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The male line becomes extinct once all male descendants of male descendants of male descendants, etc. have died without any living male descendant. If a female Blackfyre has a son, that son does not start a new male Blackfyre line, but is a male of a female Blackfyre line. So if Varys is the son of a Blackfyre mother, he is of a female Blackfyre line and not a male Blackfyre line.

Ah Thanks for pointing that out but it would make more sense for him and Serra to be the Brightframes in the story since they are from Lys and not the Blackfyres,could be wrong through.

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"Young, and a king," he said. "A king must have an heir. If I should die in my next battle, the kingdom must not die with me."

Catelyn V, Storm

Too bad the George ain't 20 years younger...

I don't think the story is being written to see a Blackfyre claim survive. I would expect Varys and Illyrio to doe with their bright prince.

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Ah Thanks for pointing that out but it would make more sense for him and Serra to be the Brightframes in the story since they are from Lys and not the Blackfyres,could be wrong through.

The only problem I see with that theory is that it would really make Illyrio the rightful "Blackfyre" king if he is a Blackfyre and father of (f)Aegon. Whereas if the idea is to bring back the Blackfyre dynasty, (f)Aegon could only be the "rightful" Blackfyre heir is Illyrio is not a Blackfyre. But I get you point about Lys, and apparently Illyrio looks like one of the last known Blackfyre male descendants. I am keeping my mind open on these details--the only possibility I have mostly ruled out is (f)Aegon being the real Aegon. That option would just mess with the story arcs way too much.

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The Blackfyres have fought the Targaryens 5 or 6 times before and now all of a sudden it is "whatever, they are both Dragons"?

That doesn't seem like the motives of a group of soldiers that upon their death dip their skull in gold and promise to keep them till they get back to Westeros under a Blackfyre.

I don't think that they mind whether they get their lands and titles back under a Blackfyre or a Targaryen king, hence "a dragon is still a dragon".

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I don't necessarily believe that (f)Aegon is the last Blackfyre or even the the Blackfyre that would technically be the Blackfyre in line for the Throne. Varys and Illyrio's plan seem to pre-date (f)Aegon's birth, so I would say that he is the Blackfyre that is approximately the age of the real Aegon and they are using him for their plan.

In the end, I think that their plan boils down to; put a Blackfyre on the Iron Throne (any Blackfyre) and extinguish the Targaryen line. Even if no one knows that they did it, they will have succeeded in winning the Blackfyre rebellion.

1)No proof Aegon is fake

2)If the plan does indeed predate Aegons birth( and for arguments sake I'll say he is a Blackfyre), that would be a pretty stupid plan to have with no Blackfyre to put on the throne, unless the plan is to just get the Targaryens out of power.

3)Everyone seems to forget this little fact, Blackfyre = Targaryen. The Blackfyres are Targaryens, the founder was a king's bastard(whose mother was also a Targaryen), then he got legitimized(hence he was a Targaryen), then decided to change his surname to Blackfyre(the same name of the sword that was given to him by his father the king, which is also the same sword Aegon the conquer used) and thought that he was given that sword because his father wanted him to rule instead of his true born son, hence the Blackfyre rebellions.

4)You can't extinguish the Targaryens without killing all the Blackfyres too, again a stupid plan if that is their plan.

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Please stop that whole Lys stuff. Aerion just was in exile there for some years in his youth. He returned soon, married, and eventually had one legitimate child. Yeah, Varys/Illyrio/Serra could descend from various cadet branches of the dragon tree, but we should not take Varys (alleged) birth in Lys as a connection between him and Aerion. Just because I visited London last week, doesn't mean that I'm related to Queen Elizabeth(although I'm German, and she also has very prominent German ancestors, so we can never know...).



It would make much more sense to assume that Varys and Illyrio are distant Blackfyre cousins, descended from various children of Daemon I.



I'd also not be surprised if Illyrio was actually a descendant of Bittersteel - which could explain why Illyrio seems to feel that he very much controls the Golden Company.


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1)No proof Aegon is fake

2)If the plan does indeed predate Aegons birth( and for arguments sake I'll say he is a Blackfyre), that would be a pretty stupid plan to have with no Blackfyre to put on the throne, unless the plan is to just get the Targaryens out of power.

3)Everyone seems to forget this little fact, Blackfyre = Targaryen. The Blackfyres are Targaryens, the founder was a king's bastard(whose mother was also a Targaryen), then he got legitimized(hence he was a Targaryen), then decided to change his surname to Blackfyre(the same name of the sword that was given to him by his father the king, which is also the same sword Aegon the conquer used) and thought that he was given that sword because his father wanted him to rule instead of his true born son, hence the Blackfyre rebellions.

4)You can't extinguish the Targaryens without killing all the Blackfyres too, again a stupid plan if that is their plan.

I think you are playing a little word game here. Most people understand this history. People are "short-handing" when they say that the Blackfyre goal is to extinguish the Targaryens. What people really mean is that they want to wipe out the line that took the throne from the Blackfyres, who should have had the throne. So while people don't go into that level of detail, it should be obvious what they really mean, and you are arguing semantics. It appears that Illyrio and Varys want to wipe out the Targs that took the throne from the Blackfyres. That is what people mean--so it is not a stupid plan if that is their plan because it could succeed if (f)Aegon is the last Blackfyre and he manages to take the throne and keep it from Dany.

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Please stop that whole Lys stuff. Aerion just was in exile there for some years in his youth. He returned soon, married, and eventually had one legitimate child. Yeah, Varys/Illyrio/Serra could descend from various cadet branches of the dragon tree, but we should not take Varys (alleged) birth in Lys as a connection between him and Aerion. Just because I visited London last week, doesn't mean that I'm related to Queen Elizabeth(although I'm German, and she also has very prominent German ancestors, so we can never know...).

It would make much more sense to assume that Varys and Illyrio are distant Blackfyre cousins, descended from various children of Daemon I.

I'd also not be surprised if Illyrio was actually a descendant of Bittersteel - which could explain why Illyrio seems to feel that he very much controls the Golden Company.

I actually agree with your conclusions here, in term of the theory of who is a descendant of whom. It makes more sense to me--story wise--for Varys to be Blackfyre and Illyrio to be Bittersteel. I have suspected this for a while.

But the theory that Varys is a descendant of a Brighflame bastard is not as attenuate as you suggest. As I say over and over again--this is a story and not real life. So in real life, if someone suggests that because you were in London 18 years ago, some random 18 year old who was born in London is your child, that is far fetched. But in a story--where hidden identities are revealed first through very subtle clues, the Lys connection could be a clue to Brightflame given that Lys is not connected to that many characters in the story, but we know Aerion spent some time there in exile and Varys and his sister were from there. So in a fictional story, that could be a clue to them being Aerion's descendants. But as I said, in this case, I think the Illyrio as Bittersteel and Varys as Blackfyre works better.

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I don't think that they mind whether they get their lands and titles back under a Blackfyre or a Targaryen king, hence "a dragon is still a dragon".

That is far from all that Illyrio said to Tyrion, however. And, indeed, the color of the dragon remark was an offhand deflection to Tyrion's own incredulity that the Golden Company would support any but a Blackfyre . . . a deflection Tyrion appears not to believe. (Frankly, I see Tyrion's incredulity as a flag that the reader should likewise question what Illyrio is saying, which I suspect was the trigger for the Blackfyre theories to begin with).

Illyrio also explains that the Golden Company---which has prided itself on never breaking a contract in well over a hundred years---is breaking a contract now because another contract is writ "in blood." What blood is of foundational importance to the Golden Company? Only Blackfyre. After all, "beneath the gold, the bitter steel." It is also not as though the Company following a Blackfyre into war against the Targaryens is a distant memory; the War of the Ninepenny Kings was within the living memory of a fair number of characters in the story (Barristan killed Maelys after all).

If they just wanted to go home, or are happy to support any Targaryen, Robert's Rebellion offered the pretty good opportunity---offer to protect Aerys in return for a pardon, or request a pardon from the (generally pardon-happy) Robert Baratheon who hates Targaryens. That they are leaving for Westeros now, and breaking a contract to do so, is suggestive.

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The only problem I see with that theory is that it would really make Illyrio the rightful "Blackfyre" king if he is a Blackfyre and father of (f)Aegon. Whereas if the idea is to bring back the Blackfyre dynasty, (f)Aegon could only be the "rightful" Blackfyre heir is Illyrio is not a Blackfyre. But I get you point about Lys, and apparently Illyrio looks like one of the last known Blackfyre male descendants. I am keeping my mind open on these details--the only possibility I have mostly ruled out is (f)Aegon being the real Aegon. That option would just mess with the story arcs way too much.

Illyrio s mother could be a a daughter/niece/cousin of Maelys and his father an an ally of Maelys in the war of the Ninepenny Kings.Btw Mopatis might not even be his true surname,Illyrio has so many parells with Aegon the Unlikely that i always tend to think he is a BF from the female line.Illyrio would be the rightful Blackfyre heir,you are right but i believe that since he and Varys decided that they cant win by something their forefathers tried and lost their lives,they started a new strategy by eleminating the Targ family and disguise their Blackfyre into a Targ,i dont think that Varys wants to extinct the Targ family,he wants Dany and Aegon to marry so the lines of Dareon and Daemon can become one thus ending the war.BTW i kinda pity Aegon either way he is doomed and i would be sad to see him learn his true parentage,his whole life would be a lie.

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The Blackfyres have fought the Targaryens 5 or 6 times before and now all of a sudden it is "whatever, they are both Dragons"?

That doesn't seem like the motives of a group of soldiers that upon their death dip their skull in gold and promise to keep them till they get back to Westeros under a Blackfyre.

It's not "whatever". There is no more male Blackfyre to follow(assuming Aegon is real), and most important which everyone loves to forget, they want to go home, so badly that they will follow any dragon there.

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That is far from all that Illyrio said to Tyrion, however. And, indeed, the color of the dragon remark was an offhand deflection to Tyrion's own incredulity that the Golden Company would support any but a Blackfyre . . . a deflection Tyrion appears not to believe. (Frankly, I see Tyrion's incredulity as a flag that the reader should likewise question what Illyrio is saying, which I suspect was the trigger for the Blackfyre theories to begin with).

Illyrio also explains that the Golden Company---which has prided itself on never breaking a contract in well over a hundred years---is breaking a contract now because another contract is writ "in blood." What blood is of foundational importance to the Golden Company? Only Blackfyre. After all, "beneath the gold, the bitter steel." It is also not as though the Company following a Blackfyre into war against the Targaryens is a distant memory; the War of the Ninepenny Kings was within the living memory of a fair number of characters in the story (Barristan killed Maelys after all).

If they just wanted to go home, or are happy to support any Targaryen, Robert's Rebellion offered the pretty good opportunity---offer to protect Aerys in return for a pardon, or request a pardon from the (generally pardon-happy) Robert Baratheon who hates Targaryens. That they are leaving for Westeros now, and breaking a contract to do so, is suggestive.

No other Targaryen King would have given the GC members the titles and lands they consider rightfully theirs back. Robert had no need for the GCs swords and would not have insulted lords who served under him by giving their lands to Blackfyre supporters.

How is it far from what Illyrion said? Blackfyre blood is Targaryen blood, remember.

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I think you are playing a little word game here. Most people understand this history. People are "short-handing" when they say that the Blackfyre goal is to extinguish the Targaryens. What people really mean is that they want to wipe out the line that took the throne from the Blackfyres, who should have had the throne. So while people don't go into that level of detail, it should be obvious what they really mean, and you are arguing semantics. It appears that Illyrio and Varys want to wipe out the Targs that took the throne from the Blackfyres. That is what people mean--so it is not a stupid plan if that is their plan because it could succeed if (f)Aegon is the last Blackfyre and he manages to take the throne and keep it from Dany.

Also i dont think that Aegon is the last Blackfyre desceandant,Daemon had 7 sons and 3 daughters,they would have children as well but like you i tend to believe Aegon will be the last try for the Blackfyres.Daemon was killed by 7 arrows,6 wars have taken place,Aegon will be the last.

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I think you are playing a little word game here. Most people understand this history. People are "short-handing" when they say that the Blackfyre goal is to extinguish the Targaryens. What people really mean is that they want to wipe out the line that took the throne from the Blackfyres, who should have had the throne. So while people don't go into that level of detail, it should be obvious what they really mean, and you are arguing semantics. It appears that Illyrio and Varys want to wipe out the Targs that took the throne from the Blackfyres. That is what people mean--so it is not a stupid plan if that is their plan because it could succeed if (f)Aegon is the last Blackfyre and he manages to take the throne and keep it from Dany.

No word games, just facts people love to overlook to prove an invalid point, like the one you just made. When did the Blackfyres ever hold the throne? Oh that's right, NEVER.

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I actually agree with your conclusions here, in term of the theory of who is a descendant of whom. It makes more sense to me--story wise--for Varys to be Blackfyre and Illyrio to be Bittersteel. I have suspected this for a while.

But the theory that Varys is a descendant of a Brighflame bastard is not as attenuate as you suggest. As I say over and over again--this is a story and not real life. So in real life, if someone suggests that because you were in London 18 years ago, some random 18 year old who was born in London is your child, that is far fetched. But in a story--where hidden identities are revealed first through very subtle clues, the Lys connection could be a clue to Brightflame given that Lys is not connected to that many characters in the story, but we know Aerion spent some time there in exile and Varys and his sister were from there. So in a fictional story, that could be a clue to them being Aerion's descendants. But as I said, in this case, I think the Illyrio as Bittersteel and Varys as Blackfyre works better.

What if Bitterseel married a daughter of Daemon?

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