Rhaegal Targaryen Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 No word games, just facts people love to overlook to prove an invalid point, like the one you just made. When did the Blackfyres ever hold the throne? Oh that's right, NEVER. You are right they never did but the will soon conquer it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 No, but the leaders/ officers were. The guys at the bottom get no say on who, what, where and when they are fighting. They guys at the bottom still need to eat and get a payment, otherwise, they would easily leave for another company that actually gives them what they want and need, and that's not promises and old loyalties. And they guys at the bottom are often the ones risking their necks more than the officers and leaders. Point in case, if the GC is a BF loyalist to the bone, why accept Jon Connington into his ranks? A man known to be a Targaryen loyalist who actually fought for them in a rebellion in first place? He was even very close to be their next leader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 No word games, just facts people love to overlook to prove an invalid point, like the one you just made. When did the Blackfyres ever hold the throne? Oh that's right, NEVER. Again, you seem to intentionally misconstrue the point. Your point seems to be that Illyrio and Varys are stupid if their goal is a BF "restoration" and elimination of Targs because the BF are Targs. Don't you think I and V know this? Of course you know that they do. They believe that Deamon Blackfyre was the rightful king. They think he had the throne and was usurped. Whether they are right or wrong is irrelevant. If they are BF loyalists, that is what they believe. So their desire is to install a descendant of the BF line and potentially eliminate any challenge from the Targ line that usurped the throne from DB. Why is that either hard to understand or stupid? If that is their desire -- then it is their desire. How is the fact that they view these two Targ lines as different lines stupid--they are entitled to view these lines any way they want. Now maybe they are really trying to merge the lines through a marriage of (f)Aegon and Dany, but that is a different issue. I simply don't think anyone is forgetting the facts that you have laid out, and I don't see any mistake that I have made. What invalid point am I trying to make--I am not claiming that BF ever had the throne--just that BF loyalists believe they either had the throne or were entitled to the throne. That is what they believe--it is neither stupid or not stupid--it is their opinion, and one they are willing to kill to pursue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastStark Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 You are right they never did but the will soon conquer it. When? Aegon is no Blackfyre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 What if Bitterseel married a daughter of Daemon? Ok, what if? I am not sure what you are getting at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Please stop that whole Lys stuff. Aerion just was in exile there for some years in his youth. He returned soon, married, and eventually had one legitimate child. Yeah, Varys/Illyrio/Serra could descend from various cadet branches of the dragon tree, but we should not take Varys (alleged) birth in Lys as a connection between him and Aerion. Just because I visited London last week, doesn't mean that I'm related to Queen Elizabeth(although I'm German, and she also has very prominent German ancestors, so we can never know...). It would make much more sense to assume that Varys and Illyrio are distant Blackfyre cousins, descended from various children of Daemon I. I'd also not be surprised if Illyrio was actually a descendant of Bittersteel - which could explain why Illyrio seems to feel that he very much controls the Golden Company.That particular fallacy is a false analogy.If nothing else is written about Aerion and his son we'll have an unused Checkov's gun. Until we have some resolution or see some purpose for it, speculation is to be expected. The Brightfyre theory ties up a few loose threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 When? Aegon is no Blackfyre Even if Aegon was a Blackfyre, I still see no point. Varys and Illyrio will secretely high-five to each other knowing they fool everybody? Because no one can know about the real origin of the kid. If they do, then his legitimacy is over, he's not Rhaegar's son, and we'll have another war and conflict, what Varys says/claims he doesn't want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegal Targaryen Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Ok, what if? I am not sure what you are getting at. You said that you think Illyrio is a desceandant of Biterseel who might be his grandfather if what i say is true. Biterseel+Daughter of Daemon=A daughter who was married to an ally of Maelys in the war of the Nipenny Kings and the child produced by that union is Illyrio,not sure if the timelines work through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegal Targaryen Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 When? Aegon is no Blackfyre He is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegal Targaryen Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Even if Aegon was a Blackfyre, I still see no point. Varys and Illyrio will secretely high-five to each other knowing they fool everybody? Because no one can know about the real origin of the kid. If they do, then his legitimacy is over, he's not Rhaegar's son, and we'll have another war and conflict, what Varys says/claims he doesn't want. They mean to pass him as Rhaegar s son and what better way than a marriage to Daenerys?If they marry everyone will think he is who he claim to be but based on Faegon s actions,we will soon see a second DWD and Dany will spread her propaganda.BTW love your image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 You said that you think Illyrio is a desceandant of Biterseel who might be his grandfather if what i say is true. Biterseel+Daughter of Daemon=A daughter who was married to an ally of Maelys in the war of the Nipenny Kings and the child produced by that union is Illyrio,not sure if the timelines work through. Oh, now I see. But no--that would cut out Varys and his sister from the equation, and I think the motivation of Varys needs to be to avenge his sister and their ancestors' claim to the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Even if Aegon was a Blackfyre, I still see no point. Varys and Illyrio will secretely high-five to each other knowing they fool everybody? Because no one can know about the real origin of the kid. If they do, then his legitimacy is over, he's not Rhaegar's son, and we'll have another war and conflict, what Varys says/claims he doesn't want. I think we have to assume one of two possibilities. Either they really don't care if anyone else knows it is a BF restoration--they only care if it is factually a BF restoration and are fine with the world thinking it is a Targ restoration. OR, they plan to marry (f)Aegon to Dany and reveal his true identity after they are married and after (f)Aegon is installed as king. Who could start a war then--his own wife? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegal Targaryen Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Oh, now I see. But no--that would cut out Varys and his sister from the equation, and I think the motivation of Varys needs to be to avenge his sister and their ancestors' claim to the throne. Either way theory works but i really want to know what happened to Aerion s son,he must have felt a little cheated from his birthright,i wish we get more info about him,the excuse no sane man wanted Aerion s blood on the IT is a little lame.Egg became king and 30 years later,his mad grandson became king and look what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Viserys Targaryen IV Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 1)No proof Aegon is fake You are right, just guess at this point. but there is no proof he is real either. 2)If the plan does indeed predate Aegons birth( and for arguments sake I'll say he is a Blackfyre), that would be a pretty stupid plan to have with no Blackfyre to put on the throne, unless the plan is to just get the Targaryens out of power. If they have a female Blackfyre, they can have a child pretty soon after they need one. Their goal is simple, destroy the Targaryens, and put a Blackfyre on the Throne. 3)Everyone seems to forget this little fact, Blackfyre = Targaryen. The Blackfyres are Targaryens, the founder was a king's bastard(whose mother was also a Targaryen), then he got legitimized(hence he was a Targaryen), then decided to change his surname to Blackfyre(the same name of the sword that was given to him by his father the king, which is also the same sword Aegon the conquer used) and thought that he was given that sword because his father wanted him to rule instead of his true born son, hence the Blackfyre rebellions. Ask a Targaryen if a Blackfyre is a Targaryen. Ask a Blackfyre if they are the same as a Targaryen. They have fought each other 5 or 6 times. If they are all the same what the reason for the wars? The Blackfyres think they are the rightful rulers and the Targaryens think they are, They do not think they are the same thing 4)You can't extinguish the Targaryens without killing all the Blackfyres too, again a stupid plan if that is their plan. Not true at all, there is a reason they use the Blackfyre name instead of the Targaryen name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 In the TV show, I don't remember Daemon Blackfyre or anything related to Blackfyre Rebellions being mentioned. Aerion OTOH was mentioned by Joffrey in Season 3. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastStark Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Again, you seem to intentionally misconstrue the point. Your point seems to be that Illyrio and Varys are stupid if their goal is a BF "restoration" and elimination of Targs because the BF are Targs. Don't you think I and V know this? Of course you know that they do. They believe that Deamon Blackfyre was the rightful king. They think he had the throne and was usurped. Whether they are right or wrong is irrelevant. If they are BF loyalists, that is what they believe. So their desire is to install a descendant of the BF line and potentially eliminate any challenge from the Targ line that usurped the throne from DB. Why is that either hard to understand or stupid? If that is their desire -- then it is their desire. How is the fact that they view these two Targ lines as different lines stupid--they are entitled to view these lines any way they want. Now maybe they are really trying to merge the lines through a marriage of (f)Aegon and Dany, but that is a different issue. I simply don't think anyone is forgetting the facts that you have laid out, and I don't see any mistake that I have made. What invalid point am I trying to make--I am not claiming that BF ever had the throne--just that BF loyalists believe they either had the throne or were entitled to the throne. That is what they believe--it is neither stupid or not stupid--it is their opinion, and one they are willing to kill to pursue. Calling a bird a dolphin doesn't change what it really is no matter how much I believe it. So yes it is stupid. Deamon was never the rightful king by all the laws in westeros, but of course they would over look that little detail. Because what are the laws for if they don't help you in your own goals. But I guess if I believe that I am a vampire strongly enough it will happen, according to what "they believe". Blackfyre=Targaryen no matter which way you slice it, eliminating all the Targaryens would include killing all Blackfyres. Believing one way or the other doesn't change the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastStark Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 He is. no proof Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 They mean to pass him as Rhaegar s son and what better way than a marriage to Daenerys?If they marry everyone will think he is who he claim to be but based on Faegon s actions,we will soon see a second DWD and Dany will spread her propaganda.BTW love your image. Thanks. But that's kind of my point. If they meant to pass him as R's son, he is still -allegedly- not his son. Marriage or not, his children have no claim if people find out, even if he has them with Dany. It's a similar case for Joffrey, T and M. Even if they weren't product of incest, they aren't the king's son despite the fact the King has been fooled into acknowledge them as such. In this scenario, Aegon wouldn't be Rhaegar's son, he's not a Targaryen who follows him in line. He has no claim nor rights, and lords would realise they have been fooled by a kid: that's the recipe for a rebellion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegal Targaryen Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 I think we have to assume one of two possibilities. Either they really don't care if anyone else knows it is a BF restoration--they only care if it is factually a BF restoration and are fine with the world thinking it is a Targ restoration. OR, they plan to marry (f)Aegon to Dany and reveal his true identity after they are married and after (f)Aegon is installed as king. Who could start a war then--his own wife? A marriage to Dany provides legitimacy but if Arianne marries Aegon which is what s probably gonna happen,he still gains legitimacy,right?The problem now is that Dany wont like that and we will have our Dance with Dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Either way theory works but i really want to know what happened to Aerion s son,he must have felt a little cheated from his birthright,i wish we get more info about him,the excuse no sane man wanted Aerion s blood on the IT is a little lame.Egg became king and 30 years later,his mad grandson became king and look what happened. I thought it was not just that he has the blood of Aerion but also that Westeros was in turmoil and needed a king that would lead them clearly--and a 3-year old with a regent for the next 13 years put the country too much at risk. I thought that was the main excuse for passing the boy up. But I agree 100%. I want to know what happened to him and his descendants (if any). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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