GRRM cheapening the series with 're-births'

[redroverman]

For me one of the great features of ASoIAF was that GRRM was able combine fantasy with historical fiction most vividly in my opinion by capturing the brutality and catastrophic consequences of war. There was always a feeling that your favorite character could die at any moment. Unfortunately, however, GRRM has dulled this sensation with his repetitive rebirthing/reanimation of clearly dead characters to the point I believe that it has become a mummer's farce.

Lets review:

First there was Beric Dondarrion, Okay he was revived from the dead what, six times? (possibly more?) Okay he was a very minor character in the story and I assumed he was just there to show that magic is re-emerging and strange things are happening in Westeros (plus as a way to put Arya and the Hound together). Besides, the first five times he died was not witnessed from a viewpoint, so its only really a footnote in the story.

Then there was Lady Stonehart, this was the big one for me. In my opinion this character is GRRM's single biggest blunder in the books. Her appearance cheapens the value of the outstanding set-piece that was the Red Wedding. Worse, she doesn't even add anything substantive to the plot, her presence is no more than the type of cheap thrill you expect from a low-budget horror film. On that note, I think D&D would do very well to completely axe LS from the TV show alltogether.

Then there was unGregor, aka Robert Strong. At this rate, no one in the Seven Kingdom's needn't worry about The Others and their army of wights because Westeros will have its very own army of zombies. Perhaps the television companies will even collaborate so that HBO's show will use the props from AMC's 'The Walking Dead'.

If Dondarrion and LS hadn't appeared, then Robert Strong wouldn't annoy me so much (especially if Cersei's trial ends up being an outstanding set-piece). But again. I feel like this is just a cheap thrill now.

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It's basically become consensus on these forums that Jon Snow will somehow be 're-born' following his (surely) fatal stab wounds. I think this captures my issue entirely. Everytime something happens to a character now we wonder if/how they will be reanimated. What will unJon do? Where is unBenjen? What role will unVictarion play?

I get that these are fantasy genre books, but I feel GRRM has spoiled them by cheapening the value of death. Let me be clear, I have no issue with characters escaping/cheating death (ie Mance), since the character never actually died.

But with characters that are clearly witnessed to be killed from a POV, they should remain dead. If the main arc of this story involves Jon being 'reborn' as AA or watever, then that should have been the only instance in which it happened. Now Jon's re-birth is basically taken for grantit and I can't see it being high quality

[Buried Treasure]

If you have a problem with a theory then shouldn't you be examining whether the theory is correct. We have confirmation that Boric died and that Cat died from Arya's Pov but what we know of Gregor is that he went from screaming in agony to seriously fucked up. Its only theory he did in between.

I don't have an issue with the resurrections because I theorise Gregor was healed like Dragon, without dying

dying. So there is only one resurrection ball that has been put in the series, beric juggled it a few times then passed it to Cat. And probably the whole point is to provide adequate setup for the third act revival of Jon so it isn't an ass pull.

[Leonardo]

Well LS is pretty awesome IMO. It males the consequences of the red wedding worse because now undead catelyn is a shade of her former self ravaging her own homeland. Its one of old Nan's stories come to life.

The only big rebirths are that of Jon Con and Aegon, one of whom has huge doubt as to actual parentage and set up one of my favorite arcs and themes of the series.

So in short

Nah

[redroverman]

The only big rebirths are that of Jon Con and Aegon, one of whom has huge doubt as to actual parentage and set up one of my favorite arcs and themes of the series.

So in short

Nah

You've missed my point. JonCon and fAegon aren't 'rebirths' since neither obviously died. fAegon wasn't 'reborn' because whoever he is, he obviously isn't the kid who's head was smashed against a wall by Gregor.

When I say rebirth, I'm talking purely about people who have actually died coming back to life.

[redroverman]

If you have a problem with a theory then shouldn't you be examining whether the theory is correct. We have confirmation that Boric died and that Cat died from Arya's Pov but what we know of Gregor is that he went from screaming in agony to seriously fucked up. Its only theory he did in between.

I don't have a problem with the theory at all, infact I rather quite like the theory. On the contrary, I just think the execution of the theory is cheapened because it might involve the same process that involved Beric/Cat or Gregor. Even the 'warging into Ghost' theory has been done before with the wildling guy that warged into his bird when he died. All I'm saying is that Jon's 'rebirth' would have had more of an impact, or atleast been more surprising if there was no precedent for it.

[Squab]

I agree to some extent that it has had a negative impact but it is fantasy. When i first read GOT, i was impressed with the cost most magic was with drogos resurrection basically useless and at the expense of their child. Now, not so much, so i can understand the use of the word cheapening in more than one sense.

Combine that with endless delays and the increasing number of POVs and i figure the next one ought to be good if he's hoping to keep sales strong.

I just hope it doesnt go traditional fantasy or even towards mills and boon (if you believe some reader speculation).

[Attitude]

snip

I totally disagree. Maybe it's a cheap trick, but at this point the only 'main' character that it happened to was Cat. If she was the first one, it would be cheap. Beric was just an introduction to this.

I don't know what he will do with UnCat, but I assume she has a role to play, else he wouldn't do it.

As for Robert Strong. I think that will play a part in Cersei's pov, also not sure how. But it also shows us that magic is becoming stronger again. Which is a (big) part of this entire series aswell.

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As for Jon, Benjen and all the others you name. The only (main) POV character is Jon. And I am not sure he will become UnJon. You haven't read everything on the forum about this subject, that's clear, because most people think he won't be revived by Mel. (Better yet, I've seen a great post about this subject which explains his 'assassination' in such a way that Jon is just barely hurt and might just stand up and fight at the beginning of tWoW).

As for the others (Benjen etc.) I think that's just crackpot/wishful thinking.

If you have a problem with a theory then shouldn't you be examining whether the theory is correct. We have confirmation that Boric died and that Cat died from Arya's Pov but what we know of Gregor is that he went from screaming in agony to seriously fucked up. Its only theory he did in between.

I don't have an issue with the resurrections because I theorise Gregor was healed like Dragon, without dying

dying. So there is only one resurrection ball that has been put in the series, beric juggled it a few times then passed it to Cat. And probably the whole point is to provide adequate setup for the third act revival of Jon so it isn't an ass pull.

Where does this happen? Is it in aDwD of a tWoW chapter? (Would be nice if you could give me a quote, as a spoiler..)

[Kienn]

Realistically, if magic existed eternal life/resurrection is the very first thing that would be developed at any cost.

Why don't more fantasy books have it at all?

[redroverman]

(Better yet, I've seen a great post about this subject which explains his 'assassination' in such a way that Jon is just barely hurt and might just stand up and fight at the beginning of tWoW).

Do you have a link to that post? I'd be really interested to read that.

[Attitude]

Do you have a link to that post? I'd be really interested to read that.

http://asoiaf.wester...tter/?p=6143302

It's a long post, but worth it IMO. I don't say he's without a doubt right with this, but he did a good job there and it looks plausible.

[FireAndBlood.]

Where does this happen? Is it in aDwD of a tWoW chapter? (Would be nice if you could give me a quote, as a spoiler..)

A Storm of Swords.

[Pod The Impaler]

The first person being "reborn" was in the prologue of AGOT.

What role necromancy has in this whole thing is not yet fully known, but when considering it, keep that in mind.

[Attitude]

A Storm of Swords.

I think I misinterpreted his statement there (I get it now after a rereading it). I thought he was talking about their 'final' death and I haven't seen UnCat die.. I was afraid I missed something in Arya's tWoW sample chapter.

[FreeParking]

The first person being "reborn" was in the prologue of AGOT.

What role necromancy has in this whole thing is not yet fully known, but when considering it, keep that in mind.

There is a narrative difference between someone being reborn after a dozen pages and someone being reborn after two and a half books where you have been inside their head and have been part of the most heart-wrenching plot point up until that point (arguably still is). Oh, and supposedly Uncat is still looking for her children. Night's Watchman number one tries to kill Night's Watchman number two after he he turns, which we did not get a hint of during his living period.

[Game Of Thrones]

Then there was Lady Stonehart, this was the big one for me. In my opinion this character is GRRM's single biggest blunder in the books. Her appearance cheapens the value of the outstanding set-piece that was the Red Wedding. Worse, she doesn't even add anything substantive to the plot, her presence is no more than the type of cheap thrill you expect from a low-budget horror film. On that note, I think D&D would do very well to completely axe LS from the TV show alltogether.

It's amazing how so many people somehow know LS is useless without having read TWOW or ADOS.

LOL, from this alone.

[Attitude]

It's amazing how so many people somehow know LS is useless without having read TWOW or ADOS.

LOL, from this alone.

Agreed. Same with the 'fact' that Jon will become UnJon (not to mention UnBenjen etc.). There are so many theories on this forum, and many (most?) are crackpot.

If you have a good look at the entire Jon happening, including in his story arc, you can pretty much say: He will not become UnJon. It doesn't fit. At least, that's what I've figured out with some help from the people on this forum!

[FreeParking]

Jon isn't dead. Whether he is resurrected or not, I do not know. But he is not dead, which means it is either another resurrection or another fake death. Both cause me to shrug my shoulder at this point.

[chrisdaw]

The undead was a part of this series from the very first chapter. The morality and cost of bringing back the dead a theme from the first book. What cheapens a series is character arcs that cease before a satisfying conclusion.

[Squab]

The undead was a part of this series from the very first chapter. The morality and cost of bringing back the dead a theme from the first book. What cheapens a series is character arcs that cease before a satisfying conclusion.

And plot armour

[LordStoneheart]

What Pod and Chris said. bringing back the dead was a theme starting there, but since it is magic it took a long time to get there.

I'll say this a thousand times to a thousand Stoneheart haters until my thousandth resurrection. Lady Stoneheart is in part a response to Gandalf the Grey. She was also heavily foreshadowed and hinted beforehand. 98% will probably miss it but it is there.