Ingelheim Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 It does make sense. No, it doesn't. Real life example: Imagine if I had hired a guy to kill another guy. And he had killed him. You know what happens? We both go to jail. The same here. Tywin didn't break the guest right directly, but he made Walder break it. Same situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyBanana Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 That is right Aerys slighted Tywin, and Tywin paid him back in kind with the Sack even if there were other motivations behind it. That was his payback to Aerys and that is where the payback stopped. I was under the impression that "paying back in kind" means doing the exact same thing someone else did to you. Here i see you using it differently, however. Or did Tywin secretly visit Aegon and Rhaenys before they were killed, refused some marriage proposals with the comment "the servant has become the master", then laughed at them while he was evilly twirling his bushy beard? If not, you got some explainin' to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Of course he wouldn't kill him, a tool for every task in his OWN words. Gregor is useful to him and so long as Robert isn't going to force the issue why would he waste such a valuable war asset to please the Dornish? All right, enough answer for me. I truly believe we are talking about two different guys named Tywin. I really do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 I was under the impression that "paying back in kind" means doing the exact same thing someone else did to you. Here i see you using it differently, however. Or did Tywin secretly visit Aegon and Rhaenys before they were killed, refused some marriage proposals with the comment "the servant has become the master", then laughed at them while he was evilly twirling his bushy beard? If not, you got some explainin' to do. Using treachery to repay treachery. Like Robert said the Targaryans knew that coin well. If you are going to reply at least pick more than three words to try and argue semantics over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyBanana Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Using treachery to repay treachery. Like Robert said the Targaryans knew that coin well. If you are going to reply at least pick more than three words to try and argue semantics over. Aerys refused a marriage proposal and took away Tywin's heir but without killing him. I'll be very generous here and give you Joanna's bedding ceremony even though it's hardly comparable to rape. Aerys didn't sack Lannisport or kill any Lannisters. Tywin's men sacked KL and killed three Targaryens. That's not the same, which is what you argued "paying back in kind" is supposed to imply in another thread. I just want to understand your reasoning because i don't get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nastydream Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Aerys refused a marriage proposal and took away Tywin's heir but without killing him. I'll be very generous here and give you Joanna's bedding ceremony even though it's hardly comparable to rape. Aerys didn't sack Lannisport or kill any Lannisters. That's not the same, which is what you argued "paying back in kind" is supposed to imply in another thread. I just want to understand your reasoning because i don't get it. Refusing a marriage=pillage and rape also lmao @ your signature Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Aerys refused a marriage proposal and took away Tywin's heir but without killing him. I'll be very generous here and give you Joanna's bedding ceremony even though it's hardly comparable to rape. Aerys didn't sack Lannisport or kill any Lannisters. That's not the same, which is what you argued "paying back in kind" is supposed to imply in another thread. I just want to understand your reasoning because i don't get it. We don't know what happened so it may very well of been rape if he used the Lord's Right. The situations don't have be exact mirrors. The Northman didn't go Gregor level atrocities on the West but they still raped and killed innocents, it doesn't mean they racked up the exact same body counts. Tywin's repaid Aerys' treachery, stealing his heir, murdering nobles and starting a war, possibly raping Tywin's wife, etc. with his own treachery by posing as an ally to gain entrance and sack the city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyBanana Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 We don't know what happened so it may very well of been rape if he used the Lord's Right. The situations don't have be exact mirrors. The Northman didn't go Gregor level atrocities on the West but they still raped and killed innocents, it doesn't mean they racked up the exact same body counts. Tywin's repaid Aerys' treachery, stealing his heir, murdering nobles and starting a war, possibly raping Tywin's wife, etc. with his own treachery by posing as an ally to gain entrance and sack the city. That's what i thought. So there is a difference. A bit off-topic, but what do you think about Tywin joining the rebells earlier if Jaime hadn't been in the KG? He certainly had reasons and it could only improve his position in Westeros because his time at KL's court was basically over as long as Aerys was still in power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 That's what i thought. So there is a difference. A bit off-topic, but what do you think about Tywin joining the rebells earlier if Jaime hadn't been in the KG? He certainly had reasons and it could only improve his position in Westeros because his time at KL's court was basically over as long as Aerys was still in power. Between the extent of the pillaging? Yes. It means they pillaged him back, not that they did the exact same amount of damage and killing. If Jaime married Lysa like Tywin and Hoster seemed to be planning then yes I think they would of joined the moment the Tullys did. If not then I think after Bells and the rebels had all the momentum going I could see him showing up at the Trident without telling anyone whose side he'd taken smashing the loyalist mid battle or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Of course he wouldn't kill him, a tool for every task in his OWN words. Gregor is useful to him and so long as Robert isn't going to force the issue why would he waste such a valuable war asset to please the Dornish? If Gregor is going around killing raping and killing princess by his own decision, then he isn't useful. As then he is wild dog that is causing problems for you and your house. Because one unaccountable fighter isn't worth a kingdom being pissed off against you and your kin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Tywin is ruthless and brutal in his actions, sure. He can be quite petty, esp. if he thinks he got slighted, sure. IMO he is the "classic" warlord. I do not see any relevant differences to let's say Cesar, Alexander, Charlemagne, Tamerlan, Napoleon to just name a few. I dont like him but I dont see him as the big EVIL. Everything discussion related to Elia is at the end of the day just personal opinion. The pillaging in the RL is awful, but only because we read about it, i.e. we know what happens. I guess the raiding of Daario in the Mereen hinterland is quite similar to the RL raidings (knowing Daario's character and the character of mercenaries in general) with the big difference that we dont read about it. Thus no one will blame Dany for it, but Tywin is the big evil. It's all mostly selective perception of the reader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 I was under the impression that "paying back in kind" means doing the exact same thing someone else did to you. According to many Stark fans, it doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 If Gregor is going around killing raping and killing princess by his own decision, then he isn't useful. As then he is wild dog that is causing problems for you and your house. Because one unaccountable fighter isn't worth a kingdom being pissed off against you and your kin. Killing Gregor would mean admitting that Tywin was guilty for the rape and killing of Ellia. As Roose Bolton said, what a subordinate does reflects on the Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nastydream Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Tywin is ruthless and brutal in his actions, sure.He can be quite petty, esp. if he thinks he got slighted, sure.IMO he is the "classic" warlord. I do not see any relevant differences to let's say Cesar, Alexander, Charlemagne, Tamerlan, Napoleon to just name a few. I dont like him but I dont see him as the big EVIL.Everything discussion related to Elia is at the end of the day just personal opinion.The pillaging in the RL is awful, but only because we read about it, i.e. we know what happens. I guess the raiding of Daario in the Mereen hinterland is quite similar to the RL raidings (knowing Daario's character and the character of mercenaries in general) with the big difference that we dont read about it. Thus no one will blame Dany for it, but Tywin is the big evil.It's all mostly selective perception of the reader.Do you have to bring Dany in everything?Geez people we get it you don't like her.No need for every thread to go like "yea but did that and you didn't say anything" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Dany is a worse ruler than Tywin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nastydream Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Dany is a worse ruler than Tywin. :agree: That wasn't even his point lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Dany is a worse ruler than Tywin. :agree: That isn't what he was talking about... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 I agree with his opinion, and added that she is a worse ruler, partially because of what he said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Killing Gregor would mean admitting that Tywin was guilty for the rape and killing of Ellia. As Roose Bolton said, what a subordinate does reflects on the Lord. No, it would be Tywin publicly declaring his disapproval of Gregor's act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nastydream Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Killing Gregor would mean admitting that Tywin was guilty for the rape and killing of Ellia. As Roose Bolton said, what a subordinate does reflects on the Lord. Which he was. Killing Gregor would at least prove he has some humanity left(jk he doesn't but it would mean good pr) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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