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Plot holes (Real ones, not things you don't like)


FreeParking

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This is a continuation of this thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/114572-plot-holes-real-ones-not-things-you-dont-like/

To start off: Why did Jaime not talk to Tyrion when he returned to King's Landing? He was Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, yet he didn't do anything until the end of the book.

To be fair, it isn't like Jaime could do much and he likely didn't want to get Tyrion's hopes up.

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To be fair, it isn't like Jaime could do much and he likely didn't want to get Tyrion's hopes up.

I call bullshit. Couldn't do much? Except get Varys to do some stuff when necessary. Didn't want to get Tyrion's hopes up? You're right. Tyrion is dead meat. Why should Jaime care two shits about him? Except, you know, when Tyrion's life is on the line. Jaime is the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. If I recall correctly Tyrion wasn't taken to the Black Cells until after the duel. Jaime was there for the farce of a trial. At no point did he decide to talk to his brother. There is no reason for this. Jaime asked Tyrion if he killed Joffrey. If he cared he could have asked him this earlier. He chose not to. Don't try to rationalize something GRRM did for narrative sake.

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Why doesn't Tyrion tell Jorah that he was friends with his father? Tyrion would definitely know of the family connection. I couldn't stop thinking about this in every Tyrion-Jorah chapter.

I never even thought of this. Did Tyrion at least think about Jeor when speaking to Jorah?

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I call bullshit. Couldn't do much? Except get Varys to do some stuff when necessary. Didn't want to get Tyrion's hopes up? You're right. Tyrion is dead meat. Why should Jaime care two shits about him? Except, you know, when Tyrion's life is on the line. Jaime is the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. If I recall correctly Tyrion wasn't taken to the Black Cells until after the duel. Jaime was there for the farce of a trial. At no point did he decide to talk to his brother. There is no reason for this. Jaime asked Tyrion if he killed Joffrey. If he cared he could have asked him this earlier. He chose not to. Don't try to rationalize something GRRM did for narrative sake.

What does being LC of the Kingsguard matter? It isn't like that position makes him a judge, and was he even there for the trial? He was likely waiting to see what the outcome was while hoping for the best.

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What does being LC of the Kingsguard matter? It isn't like that position makes him a judge, and was he even there for the trial? He was likely waiting to see what the outcome was while hoping for the best.

Who is Kevan? Yet, he went and talked to Tyrion. I can see no reason why the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, his own brother, wouldn't be allowed have a word with him. And why await the outcome of the trial? Why not talk to the brother you supposedly love before then?

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Who is Kevan? Yet, he went and talked to Tyrion. I can see no reason why the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, his own brother, wouldn't be allowed have a word with him. And why await the outcome of the trial? Why not talk to the brother you supposedly love before then?

Kevan was likely assigned to be the person that helps Tyrion prepare his defense, Jaime has a lot on his plate when he returns and has no idea what went down. Moreover, Cersei would be angry if he visited her son's murderer.

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As far as I remember, he didn't at all. Surely George didn't forget!

I believe Jorah smacks Tyrion around a bit because he is talking about Dany (to get under his skin). Later Tyrion is trying to keep Jorah alive. If what you say is true, we have Tyrion trying to irritate Jorah and Tyrion trying to protect him, and yet he never thinks about Jeor at all through this spectrum of feelings. Odd.

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Kevan was likely assigned to be the person that helps Tyrion prepare his defense, Jaime has a lot on his plate when he returns and has no idea what went down. Moreover, Cersei would be angry if he visited her son's murderer.

1/3; 1/11; 1/24

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aj_uNZmcJaTddG9BVU5tRnJJTE5KcE5JRkFha1ZfNUE#gid=8

This was the link I used for dates. Feel free to use another one. Jaime arrives in KL on 1/3. 1/11 the duel occurs. That is eight days since his arrival that the head of the King's security didn't even question the suspect. 1/24 Jaime helps him escape. That is twenty-one days since his arrival back in KL. Never talked to his brother. The head of the King's security has plenty of reason to question the suspect in private. Instead he decides to help him escape, only questioning him afterwards, for...reasons.

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What does being LC of the Kingsguard matter? It isn't like that position makes him a judge, and was he even there for the trial? He was likely waiting to see what the outcome was while hoping for the best.

Yeah, well, the whole trial is a bit of a stretch. Everyone but Cersei seems to sit back and do nothing. Tywin doesn't seem to care about the stain on his family's honour when he could easily have Joffrey's death ruled an accident (Pycelle would oblige) or let Tyrion go because the evidence is weak. No matter how much he hates his son, your family member having killed the king always beats your family member not having done so in terms of family reputation.
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I'll ad my own from the previous thread: Why Hoster never warned Arryn about Littlefinger?

Embarrassment. He didn't want to bring up the topic of Lysa's out of wedlock child or the abortion. Which he would have to do, because Arryn probably doesn't provide him with a list of all the minor nobles he takes to King's Landing. Maybe Arryn mentioned it off-handedly, but again Hoster would have to bring it up himself, because simply saying LF is a bad seed is not going to be enough. And if Hoster beats about the bush, Arryn will connect the dots.

Also, as far as Hoster is concerned, the affair is over and done with, it was a youthful folly and is no longer an issue. Even if it isn't, the worst Hoster would think LF capable of his having another affair with Lysa. Which in some circles was considered the norm among nobility, at worst embarrasses Arryn but is not really a good enough reason for Hoster to raise a fuss about.

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Tyrion poured the wine on the floor just for the convinence of the plot... He had no reason to do it at all.

Found it in my book. "But his eyes fell on the wedding chalice, forgotten on the floor. He went and scooped it up. There was still a half-inch of deep purple wine in the bottom of it. Tyrion considered it for a moment, then poured it on the floor." Why? I don't recall his reasoning being revisited, and we were even inside his head at the time. Of course someone will some in and say "we do irrational things during a commotion."

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1/3; 1/11; 1/24

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aj_uNZmcJaTddG9BVU5tRnJJTE5KcE5JRkFha1ZfNUE#gid=8

This was the link I used for dates. Feel free to use another one. Jaime arrives in KL on 1/3. 1/11 the duel occurs. That is eight days since his arrival that the head of the King's security didn't even question the suspect. 1/24 Jaime helps him escape. That is twenty-one days since his arrival back in KL. Never talked to his brother. The head of the King's security has plenty of reason to question the suspect in private. Instead he decides to help him escape, only questioning him afterwards, for...reasons.

I'm sorry but why should Jaime necessarily have gone to see Tyrion? I'm not following you at all. He wasn't even at the wedding so he's no help on that count. He's also dealing with his physical impairment and his relationship with Cersie.

Tyrion's life is only in danger after the trial. Not before it and we know Jaime was keeping up with the happenings of the trial.

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I'm sorry but why should Jaime necessarily have gone to see Tyrion? I'm not following you at all. He wasn't even at the wedding so he's no help on that count. He's also dealing with his physical impairment and his relationship with Cersie.

For starters, he might have simply wanted to know, whether his brother murdered his son. Second, it would matter to his job how it's possible to poison the king. Third, it's kind of customary to check on your relatives after a prolonged absence. Fourth, he might have wanted to make sure, Tyrion doesn't use the first day of the trial to demand trial by combat and name his brother as his champion.

Tyrion's life is only in danger after the trial. Not before it and we know Jaime was keeping up with the happenings of the trial.

Tyrions life was in danger the moment he was accused of murdering the king. Especially given the legal system in Westeros.
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For starters, he might have simply wanted to know, whether his brother murdered his son. Second, it would matter to his job how it's possible to poison the king. Third, it's kind of customary to check on your relatives after a prolonged absence. Fourth, he might have wanted to make sure, Tyrion doesn't use the first day of the trial to demand trial by combat and name his brother as his champion.

Tyrions life was in danger the moment he was accused of murdering the king. Especially given the legal system in Westeros.

1. He's scared to find out whether Tyrion killed Joffrey. This becomes obvious when he tries to make excuses for why Tyrion killed Joffrey to Cersie. Jaime also thinks Joffrey deserved to die.

2. He sees Tyrion at the trial. He has no reason to specifically meet him, especially with Cersie's single minded agenda of seeing Tyrion killed. It's quite clear that Cersie is one of the reasons Jaime does not go to Tyrion.

3. Jaime doesnt seem to care much for Joffrey or kings in general at the point. Also, point 1. He's reluctant to find out.

4. Jaime does not even think Tyrion knows he's at the trial and hence, in his mind, there's no risk of Tyrion naming him as champion.

No it isn't. He's undergoing a trial and he's not likely to be killed before it's taken place.

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