Plot holes (Real ones, not things you don't like)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I'm not sure if this is a plot hole, but it is something that has been bothering me. It concerns Jon Arryn's squire, Ser Hugh. Eddard wishes to question him about Jon Arryn's death, but the Mountain kills him in the Tourney before he is able to do it. This leads both the reader and Eddard to believe that the Lannisters paid him to kill Jon Arryn and then they killed him to shut him up. But, as we all know, it was Littlefinger and Lysa who conspired to kill Jon Arryn. I can't remember if Lysa said she poisoned her husband or paid Ser Hugh to do it, so it's either a plot hole or a red herring.

Red herring. The Mountain was being the Mountain that time.

[RumHam]

I'm not sure if this is a plot hole, but it is something that has been bothering me. It concerns Jon Arryn's squire, Ser Hugh. Eddard wishes to question him about Jon Arryn's death, but the Mountain kills him in the Tourney before he is able to do it. This leads both the reader and Eddard to believe that the Lannisters paid him to kill Jon Arryn and then they killed him to shut him up. But, as we all know, it was Littlefinger and Lysa who conspired to kill Jon Arryn. I can't remember if Lysa said she poisoned her husband or paid Ser Hugh to do it, so it's either a plot hole or a red herring.

I think the idea is that Gregor is just a monster, who saw a chance to kill somebody in a socially acceptable way and took it. So it was a coincidence. You might wonder if maybe Varys or Littlefinger paid him to do it, but how would they know his gorget wasn't fastened right?

[Ingelheim]

I'm not sure if this is a plot hole, but it is something that has been bothering me. It concerns Jon Arryn's squire, Ser Hugh. Eddard wishes to question him about Jon Arryn's death, but the Mountain kills him in the Tourney before he is able to do it. This leads both the reader and Eddard to believe that the Lannisters paid him to kill Jon Arryn and then they killed him to shut him up. But, as we all know, it was Littlefinger and Lysa who conspired to kill Jon Arryn. I can't remember if Lysa said she poisoned her husband or paid Ser Hugh to do it, so it's either a plot hole or a red herring.

Just a Red Herring. The Mountain is a monster, and killing is part of his self.

[grumkin77]

Found it in my book. "But his eyes fell on the wedding chalice, forgotten on the floor. He went and scooped it up. There was still a half-inch of deep purple wine in the bottom of it. Tyrion considered it for a moment, then poured it on the floor." Why? I don't recall his reasoning being revisited, and we were even inside his head at the time.

Tyrion acts stupid here, but we can't possibly cry "a plot hole!" every time a character does something stupid, illogical or inconsiderate :). As for Jaime not visiting Tyrion, it seems to me Jaime suspected Tyrion of poisoning his son, and he didn't want to ask him directly, fearing of what he might hear... He only dared to ask at the very last minute.

[Game of Thrones Reference]

Red herring. The Mountain was being the Mountain that time.

Thank you! That's what I figured. It was just really bad timing.

[Shagwell the mad jester]

Why did Roose Bolton legitimized Ramsay Snow instead of getting rid of him? He knows that Ramsay killed his only true born son and he could just conceive another child with Fat Walda.

I'm not sure, whether this is really a plot-hole, but that's been bewildering me as well. In a conversational tone he explains to Theon, that 1. ) He doesn't think Ramsay can rule the North being the madman he is and 2.) that he has killed Domeric and will kill all children he will have with Walda, but he doesn't care, because boy lords are the bane of every house.

So, what's his plan? There are only two possible outcomes, and both mean the doom of House Bolton: Ramsay rules and soon has the North against him, or he dies and "the bane of the house" comes with a young boy-lord.

Posters have pointed out, that the plan could be to let him beget a heir with fArya and then kill him (but that again would mean a boy-lord). Or that it was simply meant as a message to Ramsay ("I know that you killed my son"), which is almost certainly the case, but that it never was intended to make sense other than that.

But still - I'm not sure, what to make out of this.

[Ingelheim]

I'm not sure, whether this is really a plot-hole, but that's been bewildering me as well. In a conversational tone he explains to Theon, that 1. ) He doesn't think Ramsay can rule the North being the madman he is and 2.) that he has killed Domeric and will kill all children he will have with Walda, but he doesn't care, because boy lords are the bane of every house.

So, what's his plan? There are only two possible outcomes, and both mean the doom of House Bolton: Ramsay rules and soon has the North against him, or he dies and "the bane of the house" comes with a young boy-lord.

Posters have pointed out, that the plan could be to let him beget a heir with fArya and then kill him (but that again would mean a boy-lord). Or that it was simply meant as a message to Ramsay ("I know that you killed my son"), which is almost certainly the case, but that it never was intended to make sense other than that.

But still - I'm not sure, what to make out of this.

You missed another option: Ramsay has a son with fArya, both Bolton and Stark. Then Roose kills Ramsay and rises his grandson as his heir.

Now you would say "That's exactly what I said". But it's not, since in this option, Roose lives long enough to take care of the children into an adult.

Which is more interesting to me is that Roose seems to believe he won't live much longer. He is not young, but I doubt he is even in his 50s.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Why did Roose Bolton legitimized Ramsay Snow instead of getting rid of him? He knows that Ramsay killed his only true born son and he could just conceive another child with Fat Walda.

I'm not sure, whether this is really a plot-hole, but that's been bewildering me as well. In a conversational tone he explains to Theon, that 1. ) He doesn't think Ramsay can rule the North being the madman he is and 2.) that he has killed Domeric and will kill all children he will have with Walda, but he doesn't care, because boy lords are the bane of every house.

So, what's his plan? There are only two possible outcomes, and both mean the doom of House Bolton: Ramsay rules and soon has the North against him, or he dies and "the bane of the house" comes with a young boy-lord.

Posters have pointed out, that the plan could be to let him beget a heir with fArya and then kill him (but that again would mean a boy-lord). Or that it was simply meant as a message to Ramsay ("I know that you killed my son"), which is almost certainly the case, but that it never was intended to make sense other than that.

But still - I'm not sure, what to make out of this.

Same case with Tywin and both Tyrion and Gregor.

1. He can't kill him because he's his son, and he's kinda expected to provide for him. Also, remember that the mother was dangerous because she could have told Ned how the kid was conceived and Bolton could have lost his head.

2. Ramsay is Roose's own Mountain. He can get ride of enemies he doesn't like and he always can blame it on him being a wild bastard boy. But if he behaves, he's useful to him, as he is now because he will provide a Bolton-Stark heir to rule the North.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Which is more interesting to me is that Roose seems to believe he won't live much longer. He is not young, but I doubt he is even in his 50s.

Hence, the theory of him being actually older than he's expected. I don't believe it but it's not completely far-fetched in an universe with Dragons and zombies. Maybe he's more than 100 and he has managed to look younger somehow.

Which is also odd considering that the actor playing him is only 39, when everybody else is around 45-50 (except Pascall).

[Ingelheim]

Hence, the theory of him being actually older than he's expected. I don't believe it but it's not completely far-fetched in an universe with Dragons and zombies. Maybe he's more than 100 and he has managed to look younger somehow.

Which is also odd considering that the actor playing him is only 39, when everybody else is around 45-50 (except Pascall).

Yeah, but if he is a hundred years old, maybe even older, I don't think he would have any problem living another 20 years, because, of course, he would be a magical being.

But Roose speaks like he will be dead in 5 years, maybe even sooner. Which is interesting, for sure.

[Tormund GiantsMANE]

legitimizing Ramsay puts Roose back on the hook for his actions IMHO. Before he was a Bolton, his misdeeds were the acts of a bastard boy. Now his actions come under the Bolton name....any behavior unbecoming of a lord will bring scorn on their family. This may give Roose an "out" for kinslaying.....word gets out about Ramsay's hunting trips or torture of Theon Greyjoy might be reason enough to offer him up. What would the sit down with Euron Greyjoy and Ramsay Bolton look like?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Yeah, but if he is a hundred years old, maybe even older, I don't think he would have any problem living another 20 years, because, of course, he would be a magical being.

But Roose speaks like he will be dead in 5 years, maybe even sooner. Which is interesting, for sure.

maybe the pact he made with the devil has an expiration date.

[Shagwell the mad jester]

You missed another option: Ramsay has a son with fArya, both Bolton and Stark. Then Roose kills Ramsay and rises his grandson as his heir.

Now you would say "That's exactly what I said". But it's not, since in this option, Roose lives long enough to take care of the children into an adult.

Which is more interesting to me is that Roose seems to believe he won't live much longer. He is not young, but I doubt he is even in his 50s.

This plan makes sense, except that he expects not to live that long.

You are right, this is a very interesting point. IIRC he was in his 40s when described at first. Does he know something we don't or is this just some kind of decadent morbidity that matches his "gothic" appearance (the reason I actually like him somehow)?

[Ingelheim]

This plan makes sense, except that he expects not to live that long.

You are right, this is a very interesting point. IIRC he was in his 40s when described at first. Does he know something we don't or is this just some kind of decadent morbidity that matches his "gothic" appearance (the reason I actually like him somehow)?

That's why Roose is such an interesting character for me.

If he were an average guy in his late 40s, he would have more than enough time to teach his grandson how to be a proper Bolton Lord. In fact, he would make him a Roose 2.0

We know he is a Lord since he was in his 20s. I doubt he would have a problem with his grandson being a Lord if he is in his 20s as well.

He would kill Ramsay (which would give him quite a better reputation among the Northern lords), and he would spend the next 20-25 years teaching his half "Stark" grandson.

But he doesn't expect to live much longer. Which either means he is dying or he expects to die in battle.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Found it in my book. "But his eyes fell on the wedding chalice, forgotten on the floor. He went and scooped it up. There was still a half-inch of deep purple wine in the bottom of it. Tyrion considered it for a moment, then poured it on the floor." Why? I don't recall his reasoning being revisited, and we were even inside his head at the time. Of course someone will some in and say "we do irrational things during a commotion."

I may be completely wrong but I always thought he dumped it because he knew at that point Joff had been poisoned & either didn't want to be standing there holding the poisoned wine or didn't want any evidence left behind that the wine was poisoned. Why? No idea lol

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Found it in my book. "But his eyes fell on the wedding chalice, forgotten on the floor. He went and scooped it up. There was still a half-inch of deep purple wine in the bottom of it. Tyrion considered it for a moment, then poured it on the floor." Why? I don't recall his reasoning being revisited, and we were even inside his head at the time. Of course someone will some in and say "we do irrational things during a commotion."

I may be completely wrong but I always thought he dumped it because he knew at that point Joff had been poisoned & either didn't want to be standing there holding the poisoned wine or didn't want any evidence left behind that the wine was poisoned. Why? No idea lol

He was the last one who served the King the wine. He knew they would try to get him involved. No wine, no evidence, no blame.

Or so he thought.

If anything, I think the plot hole was him to be so naive pretending that lack of evidence would be enough for him to get free. He should have simply run away or start screaming: "look! the wine is poisoned! someone has poisoned the King!!". Spilling the wine was a bad idea because in fact, he was seen doing that and it was extremely suspicious.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

You missed another option: Ramsay has a son with fArya, both Bolton and Stark. Then Roose kills Ramsay and rises his grandson as his heir.

Now you would say "That's exactly what I said". But it's not, since in this option, Roose lives long enough to take care of the children into an adult.

Which is more interesting to me is that Roose seems to believe he won't live much longer. He is not young, but I doubt he is even in his 50s.

Yeah, but if he is a hundred years old, maybe even older, I don't think he would have any problem living another 20 years, because, of course, he would be a magical being.

But Roose speaks like he will be dead in 5 years, maybe even sooner. Which is interesting, for sure.

That's why Roose is such an interesting character for me.

If he were an average guy in his late 40s, he would have more than enough time to teach his grandson how to be a proper Bolton Lord. In fact, he would make him a Roose 2.0

We know he is a Lord since he was in his 20s. I doubt he would have a problem with his grandson being a Lord if he is in his 20s as well.

He would kill Ramsay (which would give him quite a better reputation among the Northern lords), and he would spend the next 20-25 years teaching his half "Stark" grandson.

But he doesn't expect to live much longer. Which either means he is dying or he expects to die in battle.

About Roose's age:

Theon tells us that Roose is well past 40, but doesn't look like it. We know that Roose had his first son born around 280AC. On average, a Lord is 20-25 when his firstborn child is born. However, Domeric was one of three children, and his mother Bethany was not Roose's first wife, suggesting that Roose was older than that when Domeric was born.

Putting Roose's age somewhere in his 50ties, most likely.

When Roose speaks about him not living long enough to see a new son to adulthood (16) , he isn't speaking only of his age. His age doesn't have anything to do with it. A dire winter is coming, and Roose is in the middle of a war. Chances are incredibly high that Roose will either die due to winter, or due to the fighting. So he can get his wife pregnant (in fact, he did get his wife pregnant, IIRC), but he won't live long enough due to circumstances. His age hasn't gotten much to do with it.

[The Wolves]

Why Elia and the heirs were in KL and not on Dragonstone.

I know Rhaella and Viserys went there after Aerys killed the Starks but it seemed like Elia and her children were always in KL.

And by tradition Rhaegar with his family should have been living on Dragonstone.

[TheKingUpNorth]

Why does Illyrio give all his Dragon Eggs to Dany instead of keeping some for Aegon?

[grumkin77]

Maybe he's more than 100 and he has managed to look younger somehow.

Leeches :) ?