Is it time to end privilege?

[Ken Stone]

I sat on a "Women in Technology" panel a few months ago. I'm not a women but I am somewhat influential in the local tech community, which is why I was invited. There were 5 people on the panel, 2 men and 3 women. At some point the other man on the panel went on a grad school rant about privilege. White privilege, male privilege, able-bodied privilege, didn't-get-aborted privilege. The way he put the words together and the passion with which he did it was a thing of beauty. Ultimately it was a bunch of wind that makes no difference to anyone in real life but for that 4 minutes in a conference center in middle america, we were all spell-bound. Privilege.

In life you are born with the hand you are born with. How useful is it to spend your attention and energy pointing out the advantages that others have? There is plenty of research that shows that happiness comes from having an attitude of gratefulness about what you have. The people who are the most discontent are the ones who constantly measure themselves against others. Is a person who focuses on the "privilege" of others less likely to strive to achieve something difficult? Success tends to come after failing over and over again. It seems like carrying a privilege-mindset gives you a free out when times get tough.

[TerraPrime]

Ok.

[polishgenius]

Stopping talking about 'privilege' doesn't actually end it. Just so you know.

[Theda Baratheon]

I don't really understand. Privilege doesn't exist? Privilege doesn't matter? We should stop talking about privilege?

There are people that due to their gender, skin colour, class have a significantly easier time in achieving certain things. Now, this DOESN'T mean straight, white middle class man = destined for fame and success. Straight white middle class men get depression too, for example, it doesn't automatically mean an easy life BUT it is important to acknowledge there are people that are certainly LESS privileged, and in what ways? And why are they? And how can we combat this? I'm sorry, but to me, these are important questions and much better to question than to simply ignore and brush aside.

[Castel]

I sat on a "Women in Technology" panel a few months ago. I'm not a women but I am somewhat influential in the local tech community, which is why I was invited. There were 5 people on the panel, 2 men and 3 women. At some point the other man on the panel went on a grad school rant about privilege. White privilege, male privilege, able-bodied privilege, didn't-get-aborted privilege. The way he put the words together and the passion with which he did it was a thing of beauty. Ultimately it was a bunch of wind that makes no difference to anyone in real life but for that 4 minutes in a conference center in middle america, we were all spell-bound. Privilege.

In life you are born with the hand you are born with. How useful is it to spend your attention and energy pointing out the advantages that others have? There is plenty of research that shows that happiness comes from having an attitude of gratefulness about what you have. The people who are the most discontent are the ones who constantly measure themselves against others. Is a person who focuses on the "privilege" of others less likely to strive to achieve something difficult? Success tends to come after failing over and over again. It seems like carrying a privilege-mindset gives you a free out when times get tough.

This would make sense if privilege wasn't part of a political movement and didn't have a purpose beyond rationalization.

[eyenon15]

The point I get is that, on a personal level. Don't let being underprivileged be a reason you give up on success.

As in, the people who aren't white heterosexual men that do reach a high level of success don't give up because they had less oppurtunity.

This doesn't mean you can't acknowledge there is unfair privilege and do things to help.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Ken seems to be talking about the individual level, not the society or systemic level.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Triskle,

I think you're correct those principles are in conflict. Can they accomidate each other? Can a society exist where no group has priviledge over others?

[Stannisaurus2]

I think "privilege" is a very good concept to be familiar with and recognize in a society when you have it or when it works against you (although I don't like the word itself).

There will always be people who, let's say, "abuse" the concept either to blame every single failure to something other than themselves or to construct a group member identity even sometimes with a "them vs us" mentality or to feel and act "oppressed" or to focus on relatively unimportant dimensions of a society while ignoring the more important ones where they are privileged or to justify their hatred/discrimination against others etc

That doesn't mean that the concept itself is bad and we should not consider it, it just means that some people are twisting it for their own purposes.

[baxus]

There are people that due to their gender, skin colour, class have a significantly easier time in achieving certain things. Now, this DOESN'T mean straight, white middle class man = destined for fame and success. Straight white middle class men get depression too, for example, it doesn't automatically mean an easy life BUT it is important to acknowledge there are people that are certainly LESS privileged, and in what ways? And why are they? And how can we combat this? I'm sorry, but to me, these are important questions and much better to question than to simply ignore and brush aside.

Well, I'm a straight, white, middle class man and I still make 3-4 times less than a straight, white, middle class man of the same level education and ability that was born mere 1000kms westward.

A majority of people in any of the Western Europe countries had it much better than I did and they can bugger off with their excuses.

[Clueless Northman]

Thing is, the talk about privileges misses the big point, which is that only a small proportion of people - including white males - actually is privileged and truly benefits from it. The bulk of people gets the short end of the stick, including a majority of men and of whites, though they might get a slightly less shitty end.

A lot of people are nowhere near the earnings, position and influence they deserve, considering their actual worth and abilities, and that goes for women and men, whites, blacks, and others. Go tell an average white prole that he's privileged, and it'll go well. Nope, the bulk of people are being put down by those high above, and amongst those high above, it's quite obvious that a lot of them don't deserve their high places, their fortunes and their positions of power. These have privileges, and some if not many abused past privileges to get where they are now.

But it's quite obvious this is first of all a distraction designed to divide the base before a real revolt can be achived, and "fighting privileges" is a red herring. You need to fight, bring down and fully replace the overall political, social and economic system. Anything short of that is useless in the long run and won't improve the lot of the society or of mankind as a whole, it'll just replace the few corrupt assholes on the top by a new bunch of fresh brand new corrupt assholes.

Heck, even if the mass of footsoldiers fighting privileges are obviously well-meaning people that want to improve things, it's quite obvious that most of the people at the top of these movements don't give a rat's ass about overthrowing the system to build a better one, they don't give a fuck about the Left, they don't give a fuck about getting rid of capitalism, they don't even give a fuck about the people they claim to fight for, they're just there to rig the system so that they could have their seats at the top of the current system and would be able to fully exploit it for their own benefit. Well, if you want to stop privileges, you don't rig the game to end up on top, you refuse to play the game.

[Commodore]

what are your proposed means for ending privilege?

[emberling]

Thing is, the talk about privileges misses the big point, which is that only a small proportion of people - including white males - actually is privileged and truly benefits from it. The bulk of people gets the short end of the stick, including a majority of men and of whites, though they might get a slightly less shitty end.

A lot of people are nowhere near the earnings, position and influence they deserve, considering their actual worth and abilities, and that goes for women and men, whites, blacks, and others. Go tell an average white prole that he's privileged, and it'll go well. Nope, the bulk of people are being put down by those high above, and amongst those high above, it's quite obvious that a lot of them don't deserve their high places, their fortunes and their positions of power. These have privileges, and some if not many abused past privileges to get where they are now.

Fundamental misunderstanding of the concept of privilege. It doesn't go away if a bigger fish exists. Everyone gets stuck on the name - people assume that if they "have privilege" then they should be getting stuff, so they must not have it. But mostly, having privilege is having the freedom not to put up with extra bullshit. All it means is, in your construct, how shitty the end of your stick is. You get to grab the less shitty part? That's a privilege you have that others don't.

[Disturber of Peace]

what are your proposed means for ending privilege?

Privilege Awareness Guide-a-worm-into-your-asshole Challenge!

[SeanF]

Any able-bodied person is privileged who lives in a society that has low crime rates, where war is rare, that has a high GDP per head, where electricity and water always run, and where they can vote the government out of office. North Americans, Western Europeans, Japanese and Australasians are the privileged minority of the world.

[Tears of Lys]

Everyone should be privileged in that they are free to talk about the privilege of others, and change the situation if they can. I hope that all people are granted that privilege.

When it comes to actually accomplishing that goal, though, I have less hope.

It's funny. The deposition I'm working on right now is one long argument about attorney-client privilege and what the witness should be allowed to talk about or not. It got quite heated. Hee-hee.

[MerenthaClone]

Fundamental misunderstanding of the concept of privilege. It doesn't go away if a bigger fish exists. Everyone gets stuck on the name - people assume that if they "have privilege" then they should be getting stuff, so they must not have it. But mostly, having privilege is having the freedom not to put up with extra bullshit. All it means is, in your construct, how shitty the end of your stick is. You get to grab the less shitty part? That's a privilege you have that others don't.

This. Its, in most common discussion of the topic, grossly misunderstood and misapplied most of the time. Its, honestly, not a particularly useful concept beyond "Social Justice 101" level discussion because its so vague, relative, and non-diagnostic.

Any able-bodied person is privileged who lives in a society that has low crime rates, where war is rare, that has a high GDP per head, where electricity and water always run, and where they can vote the government out of office. North Americans, Western Europeans, Japanese and Australasians are the privileged minority of the world.

Its also a very, very, very relative condition.

edit: What I mean is that while its a useful concept to understand and be aware of, its not a particularly useful concept in practice. Understanding that I don't come from a population that's been historically underserved by the medical community is good, and can help my practice, for instance.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

Any able-bodied person is privileged who lives in a society that has low crime rates, where war is rare, that has a high GDP per head, where electricity and water always run, and where they can vote the government out of office. North Americans, Western Europeans, Japanese and Australasians are the privileged minority of the world.

Yeah. The world GDP per capita is about 12 500 US dollars PPP adjusted. These are the yearly earnings everyone "deserve" assuming an equal distribution of wealth.

[AverageGuy]

Ultimately it was a bunch of wind that makes no difference to anyone in real life but for that 4 minutes in a conference center in middle america, we were all spell-bound. Privilege.

You're not getting away from the word if you're sitting on panels discussing women or minorities in tech. Further, the internet being so fond of shorthand for complex concepts, just being online enough means you'll probably run into it daily. Getting annoyed with it seems like it would also be just "a bunch of wind." Sorry.

[Stannisaurus2]

The only dimension from where (somewhat) safe deductions about a person's overall privilege can be made is social class. Anyone who is underprivileged in any other dimension may still end up on top in an overall comparison with privileged people from that dimension. Generalizing between people based on their country doesn't work.