Is Harrenhal Cursed?

[TheLionOfTheRock]

Harrenhal is believed by many of the small folk of Westeros to be cursed and even some of the nobility share this suspicion. But could it really be true? All the houses to have held Harrenhal, from Harren and his line to the Whents, have all suffered a fall from grace usually followed by extinction. The curse seems to have been more noticeable during the War of the Five Kings with those who lay claim to the castle usually coming to sticky ends:

Ser Amory Lorch: Kicked into bear pit naked and mauled to death

Vargo Hoat: Tortured to death by the Mountain and his men.

Gregor Clegane: Seemingly died agonising death from poison.

Tywin Lannister: Shot with a crossbow by his son while on the privy

Robb Stark (held in his name by Roose Bolton): Murdered along side his mother at the Red Wedding

Joffrey Baratheon (held in his name): Poisoned at his own wedding feast

Janos Slynt (held in title only): Sent to the Wall where later beheaded by Jon Snow

Is there a link? We will soon see equally sticky ends for Peytr Baelish and Roose Bolton? Or is this all just a big coincidence???

[Biter the Gallant]

It is difficult to decide, perhaps there is no curse, just the fact that if you get somehow the greatest castle, you will get also powerful and jelous political enemies with it.

But personally I think the curse is real. (Not just for the owner of the castle, but it is also a dark place for anyone else. I think the fact that the fatal tourney which started all the events leading to ASOIAF took place at Harrenhal hardly can be just a coincidence.) And I do not think that Baelish can avoid it by simply not entering the castle :-)

[Danelle]

It could be cursed, after all magic exists in Westeros but Harrenhal apparently affected its previous inhabitanta as well or was affected by them.

It was built as a palace for Harren the Black, evidence of his hybris and it was completed when Aegon landed. In order to build it, Harren destroyed weirwoods and this is likely the root of the curse.

The Houses that held the castle are now extinct, and by far the most notorious family were the Lothstons, and the most notorious member was Danelle, who was rumoured to bathe in the blood of children but also lead her army and assisted Bloodraven.

Several events that took place in Harrenhal, were crucial to the story, during the Dance

Prince Daemon and Prince Aemond fought over the castle, while riding their dragons and in the end both dragons and their riders were killed. If the kinslayer is accursed by gods, then this event might actually suggest that Harrenhal is tainted.

and there is also the famous tourney at Harrenhal where three events that had a great impact onthe story took place,

• Jaime became a KG knight
  
• The Knight of the Laughing Tree appeared
  
• Rhaegar Targaryen named Lyanna Stark as his queen of Love and Beauty, even though his wife and her betrothed were also present.
  

Additionaly Ashara Dayne was present and apparently Ned Stark was infatuated with her, and Aerys for the first time in years since Duskendale, left the Red Keep becaus eVarys had warned him that Rhaegar planned to turn the other lords against him.

The way I see it, the curse of Harrenhal is a combination of actual events that took place along with superstition. In Arya's COK chapters we are told that the original names of the towers in Harrenhal are lost and they are given new, macabre names such as Tower of Dread (I wonder if that was suppossed to foreshadow Arya's many names).

What is really odd, is that even though the Seven are worshipped in the Riverlands, the sept at Harrenhal has been ruined for years.

I wouldn't be surprised if GRRM's inspiration for Harrenhal was Vathek and the Castle of Otranto.

[TheLionOfTheRock]

I know I definitely would want nothing to do with Harrenhal, just in case.

And I do not think that Baelish can avoid it by simply not entering the castle :-)

Well, Janos Slynt never entered and look what happened to him.

Several events that took place in Harrenhal, were crucial to the story, during the Dance Prince Daemon and Prince Aemond fought over the castle, while riding their dragons and in the end both dragons and their riders were killed. If the kinslayer is accursed by gods, then this event might actually suggest that Harrenhal is tainted. and there is also the famous tourney at Harrenhal where three events that had a great impact onthe story took place,

• Jaime became a KG knight
  
• The Knight of the Laughing Tree appeared
  
• Rhaegar Targaryen named Lyanna Stark as his queen of Love and Beauty, even though his wife and her betrothed were also present.
  

Additionaly Ashara Dayne was present and apparently Ned Stark was infatuated with her, and Aerys for the first time in years since Duskendale, left the Red Keep because Varys had warned him that Rhaegar planned to turn the other lords against him.

That's also true. It seems like Harrenhal has been at the centre of these dark events for quite some time.

I

Harren destroyed weirwoods and this is likely the root of the curse.

What is really odd, is that even though the Seven are worshipped in the Riverlands, the sept at Harrenhal has been ruined for years.

Ahh, so there seems to be a link here, with the destruction of places of worship for both the Old Gods and the Seven.

[Crowford]

I tend to not assume supernatural causes as long as I can also reasonably assume non-supernatural. Obviously, magic exists, so I am not denying that there might be a curse, I just acknowledge that the idea of curses open a much bigger can of narrative worms than, say, glamor magic or skinchanging. If you start accepting that places are cursed, you'll also have to wrestle with questions like "who places a curse", "why do they place a curse" or "and how the fuck can a course "interact" with people in a way that they end up being killed by other people or have some kind of misfortune happen to them?".

Harrenhal is an important castle in a central location. But it's only really relevant in times of war, because in peacetime holding Harrenhal just means that you are sitting in an ugly, half-destroyed castle that everyone claims is haunted. So it tends to change hands quickly, and be given to people as a quick "rise to high nobility"-card, even though those people don't actually plan on ruling from there, like Slynt and Littlefinger. That means it has, on average, more holders than other castles, and that alone will mean that more of them die horribly. Then there is the fact that the people holding it are often at war, another reason to die sooner. And lastly, for people like Slynt and Littlefinger at least, it presented a stepping stone toward greater political influence. Meaning it's a magnet for envy.

All the people you mentioned died in a completely logical and probable series of events, which resulted from their actions and the actions of others. There was no trace of some kind of freak bad luck that affected them against all odds, which would be a good indicator for a curse (in a fantasy setting only, of course). Otherwise you are having to assume that the curse and/or the person who put the curse, influenced both the Red Wedding, that Tyrion shoots his father, and that Slynt falls out of favor in King's Landing and ends up at the wall. Supernatural? Possible. But not necessary, so I assume no.

As for Harrenhal being the focal point for many important events, well, this also has to do with it's importance as a stronghold. Of course many important events will take place there, and most of them will have tragic consequences, because MOST events that are remembered for any significant amount of time are those with bad consequences. The same could be said for places like Dragonstone, Oldtown or, obviously, King's Landing.

[Gronzag]

I like to think that the Old Gods cursed it for cutting down all those weirwood trees that were used in construction

[Lord Damian]

Magic has returned to the world so it is possible. I wonder if old Harren the Black as he knew he was about to die/secumb to the flames, screamed out a curse upon all who would take up residence in his castle.

[TheLionOfTheRock]

I like to think that the Old Gods cursed it for cutting down all those weirwood trees that were used in construction

So it's actually MADE from the weirwood of the trees?

[Nittanian]

So it's actually MADE from the weirwood of the trees?

Forty years it had taken, rising like a great shadow on the shore of the lake while Harren's armies plundered his neighbors for stone, lumber, gold, and workers. Thousands of captives died in his quarries, chained to his sledges, or laboring on his five colossal towers. Men froze by winter and sweltered in summer. Weirwoods that had stood three thousand years were cut down for beams and rafters. Harren had beggared the riverlands and the Iron Islands alike to ornament his dream.

[TheLionOfTheRock]

Thank you

[jeyneofthed'Ubervilles]

Maybe the Green Men send bad Juju after any Lord of Harrenhall who might look to the Isle of Faces as a timber resource.

[HexMachina]

I know I definitely would want nothing to do with Harrenhal, just in case.

Well, Janos Slynt never entered and look what happened to him.

That's also true. It seems like Harrenhal has been at the centre of these dark events for quite some time.

I

Ahh, so there seems to be a link here, with the destruction of places of worship for both the Old Gods and the Seven.

We also learned from...the Westerlands reading, I think it was, that

The Great Council which elected Egg as the King was held there. And from the recent Fire and Blood reading at LonCon, we know Harren the Red massacred the entire castle in the reign of King Aenys

[The Bloody Hound]

I thought that the curse was possibly another way of foreshadowing Littlefinger's death.

[Mithras]

There is also this possible difficulty of conception in women related to Harrenhal.

And we should not forget that Harrenhal is very close to the God's Eye where green men live.

[HexMachina]

There is also this possible difficulty of conception in women related to Harrenhal.

And we should not forget that Harrenhal is very close to the God's Eye where green men live.

What do you mean about the conception thing? I'm not really recalling anything there...

[Nittanian]

What do you mean about the conception thing? I'm not really recalling anything there...

One theory: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/71667-adwd-spoilers-harrenhals-curse/

[RumHam]

I personally don't think it's cursed. There's an explanation for the fall of each the houses I think. It's just a big target and a little unlucky.

Hoare - Balerion.

Qohorys - Harren the Red killed them and fled.

Harroway - Well Maegor married one, and we know all his wives failed to give him children. I'm guessing he was pissed and took them out. Possibly Balerion again.

Towers - No idea.

Strong - Almost certainly died out with Larys at the end of the Dance. Most of the family was killed by Vhagar when Aemond attacked.

Lothston - Lord/Lady went mad and had to be taken down.

Whent - Joffrey gives her 30 seconds to swear fealty before giving her lands away.

[HexMachina]

Strong - Almost certainly died out with Larys at the end of the Dance. Most of the family was killed by Vhagar when Aemond attacked.

There would be female Strongs with the Blacks though, wouldn't there?

ETA:

HelenaAndTheMachine, on 27 Aug 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

One theory: http://asoiaf.wester...rrenhals-curse/

Thank you :)

[King of Vaes Tolorro]

Unless a red priest goes there, we cannot truly know. Mellisandre told us of the powers of the walls of Storms End, the power of the Wall .But I doubt it is haunted. The Ghost was Arya.

[TheLionOfTheRock]

Whent - Joffrey gives her 30 seconds to swear fealty before giving her lands away.

Ha! Yeah, that was not a good way to start his reign "I think I'll just give this butcher's son who snitched on Ned Stark some lands, but which ones. oh I know! How about those of one of the most notable and infamous castles in the realm that is currently owned by someone who is neither openly rebelling against me, nor sworn to someone who is openly against me! Why? Shit and giggles, that's why!" Joffrey was Batshit cray cray