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Dagger and Coin II: Spoilers through The Spider's War


Rhom

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Beginning a new thread since the other is locked. For newcomers to the series, I believe there are also dedicated threads here for The Dragon's Path and The Tyrants Law.

 

Finished The Widows House tonight. Another fantastic read from Abraham who is quickly climbing to the top of my favorite authors list. I will say that there were quite a few typos in my book and I do have some disappointment in Orbit for that oversight.

 

Otherwise, what can I say?!!? Geder... Geder... Geder... Truly one of the most unique characters I have ever read. Most of my favorite moments were already discussed in the last thread. When he whispered to Analiese was right up there with the best moments of any series for me.

 

Also, big props to how Inys was handled from the drunken rant to the sulking in the graveyard; every note was handled just right.

 

Not many books could be written about war without the climax being some sort of battle, the fact that this one wraps up so neatly with nary a shot fired is just another example of Abraham doing something truly different dressed up as more of the same.

 

Lastly, the other thread is locked so I can't quote properly, but someone asked if Suddapal had been burned. Considering that in the epilogue, Capt Dannien is interrogating Fallon Broot regarding the troop dispensation for the city... I would say not.

 

Speaking of the epilogue; unless something big comes of Dannien and his revenge talk, that really did seem anti-climatic. It's nice to know what came of the campaign out there, but finishing on "Cithrin bel Sarcour secret queen of the world" would seem to be a much stronger closing point. :dunno:

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Fiat currency as the true weapon against tyrannts. What happens if Geder sees what's happening and tries the same thing to counter it. Antea, with the military sucess and Spider priests would seem to be in a better position to rely upon a currency based not on specie but on confidence.

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Speaking of the epilogue; unless something big comes of Dannien and his revenge talk, that really did seem anti-climatic. It's nice to know what came of the campaign out there, but finishing on "Cithrin bel Sarcour secret queen of the world" would seem to be a much stronger closing point. :dunno:

I don't think it's an epilogue -- in my version, it's called "Entr'acte" (i.e. something between the two books). It's probably important in that Antea is finally beginning to lose. That said, it's not as awesome as the previous entr'acte (which had the history of Inys), but then again few things are.

Fiat currency as the true weapon against tyrannts. What happens if Geder sees what's happening and tries the same thing to counter it. Antea, with the military sucess and Spider priests would seem to be in a better position to rely upon a currency based not on specie but on confidence.

It's not very likely. First, his empire is falling apart. By the time he learns of it, he might have bigger problems. Second, he doesn't have the gold to act as seed money. The letters of credit are somewhat plausible because everyone knows the Medean bank gave Northcoast boatloads of treasure against which they are being issued. The priests could help, but they seem to be otherwise occupied.
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Fiat currency as the true weapon against tyrannts. What happens if Geder sees what's happening and tries the same thing to counter it. Antea, with the military sucess and Spider priests would seem to be in a better position to rely upon a currency based not on specie but on confidence.

Except that it militates against their beliefs, being based on promises written down on paper.

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In fact I'm pretty sure the Spider Priests are going to see this whole idea as basically a blasphemy. Bits of paper that promise money that doesn't really exist? It's lies!

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Fiat currency as the true weapon against tyrannts. What happens if Geder sees what's happening and tries the same thing to counter it. Antea, with the military sucess and Spider priests would seem to be in a better position to rely upon a currency based not on specie but on confidence.

Geder has certainly foiled his share of schemes as the story has gone along. But, pretty much every move in his playbook is something that he's read in one of his various tomes of history. I think that will hamper his response to Cithrin's fiat currency plan, since no one has ever done anything like it before. He won't be able to read about when it happened if it's never happened.

I never count out those spider priests, though.

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Geder killed my enjoyment of this book. What a boring tit of a character. A significant portion of the book is devoted to his humdrum rationalizations and willful ignorance leading to the off screen atrocities he is responsible for.


And yet it only works because Basrahap is shoring up his weak 'I'm just a victim'-conspiracy.



I understand the idea of portraying the character this way to show how banal and pathetic the source of social evil can be, but his rank stupidity is completely at odds with the volume of well timed but poorly motivated 'masterstokes' he pulls off.


DA is generally great with characters, but I lacked the patience to put up with this one and it really coloured my interpretation of the others.


Like, Geder's portrayal as an amplified edition of an underachieving neckbeard highlights how all of the other characters are well above the norm for intelligence, application and self awareness, usually possessing a single minor and largely ignored negative trait. (Cithrin is a high-functioning alcoholic, Wester is a callous killer, Clara is ... erm ... a cougar?)



Anyway, I am enjoying the series but, for me, this volume was the weakest so far.




Oh btw, did anyone else get the feeling that Cithrin was infected by the blood-spiders?


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I'm typing this with my eyes closed. I don't want to get spoiled.

I'm halfway through the Widow's House and damn, but if The Dagger and the Coin isn't shaping up as another great Abraham series!

I did catch Curethan's (?) post above that said Geder spoiled the series for him, but I don't get that at all. He's a fantastic antagonist - you feel sorry for him at the same time you want someone to slit his throat.

I'll tear myself away now before I do something I'll regret.

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Geder killed my enjoyment of this book. What a boring tit of a character. A significant portion of the book is devoted to his humdrum rationalizations and willful ignorance leading to the off screen atrocities he is responsible for.

And yet it only works because Basrahap is shoring up his weak 'I'm just a victim'-conspiracy.

I understand the idea of portraying the character this way to show how banal and pathetic the source of social evil can be, but his rank stupidity is completely at odds with the volume of well timed but poorly motivated 'masterstokes' he pulls off.

DA is generally great with characters, but I lacked the patience to put up with this one and it really coloured my interpretation of the others.

Like, Geder's portrayal as an amplified edition of an underachieving neckbeard highlights how all of the other characters are well above the norm for intelligence, application and self awareness, usually possessing a single minor and largely ignored negative trait. (Cithrin is a high-functioning alcoholic, Wester is a callous killer, Clara is ... erm ... a cougar?)

Anyway, I am enjoying the series but, for me, this volume was the weakest so far.

Oh btw, did anyone else get the feeling that Cithrin was infected by the blood-spiders?

:stunned:

To each their own, but I think Geder is unlike anything I've seen in fantasy and I love the character in all his neck beard glory.

And no, I don't think she was infected. Wester got her out of there. She wound up wallowing in self pity on the boat after that, but she wasn't described as being in the touch and go excruciating pain of a new initiate like we've seen before. (Like the infected assassin.)

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There are a couple of times through the series where Cithrin has said the "Listen to my voice" thing. Relying on memory here, but I want to say that she used it on Geder when she was getting him out of Dawson's failed coup and maybe once per book in the two books since. It stood out to me, although it never made me wonder if she had spiders in her blood or whatever. I feel like we would have seen that by now - hasn't she bled on the page? I can't say for sure if she has done so, though. It's not the craziest theory I ever heard.

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Finished the book a couple of days ago. I thought it was another good book in the series and I'm now looking forward to the final book.

Lastly, the other thread is locked so I can't quote properly, but someone asked if Suddapal had been burned. Considering that in the epilogue, Capt Dannien is interrogating Fallon Broot regarding the troop dispensation for the city... I would say not.

Speaking of the epilogue; unless something big comes of Dannien and his revenge talk, that really did seem anti-climatic. It's nice to know what came of the campaign out there, but finishing on "Cithrin bel Sarcour secret queen of the world" would seem to be a much stronger closing point. :dunno:

I agree Suddapal doesn't seem to have been burned yet, although Geder might still try to do it. I'm not sure whether there would be enough Antean soldiers left to carry it out since presumably Broot had a significant portion of the garrison with him when Dannien defeated him, also after Vanai the locals would probably spot the preparations and riot if they tried anything.

I think the entr'acte might be intending to reiterate one of Kit's points throughout the book that the Anteans aren't the real enemy, it's the chaos caused by the spider priests. Dannien's stated intentions to do to Antea what they did to the Timzinae homelands is exactly the sort of thing that Morade would have wanted to happen.

Oh btw, did anyone else get the feeling that Cithrin was infected by the blood-spiders?

I also wondered if that was about to happen, but I don't think there's any evidence that it did.

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I think the entr'acte might be intending to reiterate one of Kit's points throughout the book that the Anteans aren't the real enemy, it's the chaos caused by the spider priests. Dannien's stated intentions to do to Antea what they did to the Timzinae homelands is exactly the sort of thing that Morade would have wanted to happen.

Exactly. You're cheering for the guys defeating Broot... but they're like the rebel spider priest. The harbingers of more war.

Geder killed my enjoyment of this book. What a boring tit of a character.

Each to their own, of course. But personally I think the reason the book works - and the series, to an extent - is that Geder is a tremendously rounded and convincing character. To take an example: one thing that makes the character work is that his father and his foster son (which is essentially what Aster is) are good people, and they both love him, for perfectly valid reasons. And he loves them, genuinely and sincerely. In fact, Geder is a pretty good foster father for Aster, much of the time. (Though he's not a particularly great son: not bad, or anything, but not particularly good either.)

Those loving relationships give him depth beyond being either just a villain, or a deluded fool. They allow us to see him as a human being. Without them, the pathos of Geder's despair at the end of this book is absent.

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Exactly. You're cheering for the guys defeating Broot... but they're like the rebel spider priest. The harbingers of more war.

Each to their own, of course. But personally I think the reason the book works - and the series, to an extent - is that Geder is a tremendously rounded and convincing character. To take an example: one thing that makes the character work is that his father and his foster son (which is essentially what Aster is) are good people, and they both love him, for perfectly valid reasons. And he loves them, genuinely and sincerely. In fact, Geder is a pretty good foster father for Aster, much of the time. (Though he's not a particularly great son: not bad, or anything, but not particularly good either.)

Those loving relationships give him depth beyond being either just a villain, or a deluded fool. They allow us to see him as a human being. Without them, the pathos of Geder's despair at the end of this book is absent.

Agree. Especially as it regards Aster. The scene where he got the black eye and Geder just talked him through it felt very real. Even down to having the guards just go stand around outside the other kid's palace.

Besides, we all know a few Geders. Picked on and never quite fit in. Daydream. Romantic, but clueless. He's probably one of the most "real" characters I've ever read.

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There are a couple of times through the series where Cithrin has said the "Listen to my voice" thing. Relying on memory here, but I want to say that she used it on Geder when she was getting him out of Dawson's failed coup and maybe once per book in the two books since. It stood out to me, although it never made me wonder if she had spiders in her blood or whatever. I feel like we would have seen that by now - hasn't she bled on the page? I can't say for sure if she has done so, though. It's not the craziest theory I ever heard.

Inys would have surely noticed that Cithrin has become one of the tainted. So I am reasonably confident that she is clean.

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It's interesting to see your different perspectives on Geder.

Each to their own, of course. But personally I think the reason the book works - and the series, to an extent - is that Geder is a tremendously rounded and convincing character. To take an example: one thing that makes the character work is that his father and his foster son (which is essentially what Aster is) are good people, and they both love him, for perfectly valid reasons. And he loves them, genuinely and sincerely. In fact, Geder is a pretty good foster father for Aster, much of the time. (Though he's not a particularly great son: not bad, or anything, but not particularly good either.)

Those loving relationships give him depth beyond being either just a villain, or a deluded fool. They allow us to see him as a human being. Without them, the pathos of Geder's despair at the end of this book is absent.

See, I thought he was doing a terrible job with Aster. Getting his rival beat up for instance, whining to him and generally being a bad example.

His father is the one person who should be trying to get Geder to understand the consequences of his political decisions, but he just wrings his hands and acts helpless instead of giving him a kick up the butt.

I'm not really sure why they come across as good people.

Everyone else, baring Basrahip, pretty much hate him anyway.

But hey, I don't want to argue that his character isn't effective - just wanted to express my reaction.

I guess I just didn't feel sorry for him at all, so I spent all my time reading about him wanting to slit his throat :D

re: Spider-Cithrin -

I thought she might have been infected at Port Oliva when the spider priest is messily killed near her.

She spends time sick in her cabin on the voyage after that and we don't get her PoV for the journey.

I don't think she directly interacts with the dragon after that either.

Then she's all super convincing with the king and the head of the bank.

eta. I really want to see Sologin's reaction to capitalism saving the world.
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It's interesting to see your different perspectives on Geder.

See, I thought he was doing a terrible job with Aster. Getting his rival beat up for instance, whining to him and generally being a bad example.

His father is the one person who should be trying to get Geder to understand the consequences of his political decisions, but he just wrings his hands and acts helpless instead of giving him a kick up the butt.

I'm not really sure why they come across as good people.

Everyone else, baring Basrahip, pretty much hate him anyway.

But hey, I don't want to argue that his character isn't effective - just wanted to express my reaction.

I guess I just didn't feel sorry for him at all, so I spent all my time reading about him wanting to slit his throat :D

re: Spider-Cithrin -

I thought she might have been infected at Port Oliva when the spider priest is messily killed near her.

She spends time sick in her cabin on the voyage after that and we don't get her PoV for the journey.

I don't think she directly interacts with the dragon after that either.

Then she's all super convincing with the king and the head of the bank.

eta. I really want to see Sologin's reaction to capitalism saving the world.

I'm not sure we're reading that passage the same way, and maybe I'm misunderstanding the example you're using. Are you talking about when Aster gets a black eye? If so, no one gets beat up in that sequence except Aster. In fact, I think he does exactly what you say he should do there. He sits down with Aster and asks what happened, then he asks Aster what he thinks should happen, they rationalize that the dueling arena is not the best solution for it, and then accept it as a learning moment. Then he mischievously suggests having the royal guard hang around outside the other kid's compound for a night or two. In my reading of the scene, it was a very real interaction for a kid that age getting into a "fight on the playground after school."

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I'm now wondering what's going to happen in the final book. I'm a bit afraid that Kit might be destined to have to die for the threat of the spiders to ever be truly eradicated, unless they can come up with a way to 'cure' someone of the spiders having anyone infected around might be seen as a risk by many of the spiders' opponents even if Kit is on their side - Inys might trust Marcus but I'm still not sure he trusts Kit.



I'm assuming at some point in the final book we're going to get a face-to-face confrontation between Cithrin and Geder, although I'm not sure under what circumstances it might happen. Perhaps Cithrin might get kidnapped or otherwise captured, I can imagine the Anteans at least trying to do that even if Marcus will be ready to stop the threat.



I'm guessing if there's another big battle then it might be part of a civil war between forces lead by Jorey and Barriath Kalliam against those loyal to Geder, the story does seem to be leading up to that happening. At the moment the Anteans seem to have a lot of potential problems with their military, they can't rely on their army in Porte Oliva and Broot's army has been routed. I'd also think Cithrin's money might be able to compromise some of the mercenaries they're starting to rely on, but the priests may be a good defence against that.


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I'm now wondering what's going to happen in the final book. I'm a bit afraid that Kit might be destined to have to die for the threat of the spiders to ever be truly eradicated, unless they can come up with a way to 'cure' someone of the spiders having anyone infected around might be seen as a risk by many of the spiders' opponents even if Kit is on their side - Inys might trust Marcus but I'm still not sure he trusts Kit.

It's not a question of trusting, or not trusting, Kit. If his blood is spilled...

So yeah, Kit has to die to end the spider threat. I've been assuming that since we found out what was going on.

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