Wyman was very wrong to eat the Freys (Changed thread title)

[Ser Eric]

Wyman Manderley had his son and men killed on the pretext of a wedding.

Wyman Manderley has his king killed on the pretext of a wedding.

Wyman Manderley was then forced to listen to bullshit about how his king turned into a wolf and killed his son.

Wyman Manderley was then asked to swear fealty to the same people who orchestrated the Wedding.

Wyman Manderley was then aksed to kill a complete innocent man for wanting to bring justice to his son and the North.

And to top it all off, Wyman Manderley was then asked to marry his precious grand daughter to the same family who killed his son.

Frey Pies were vengeance. Frey Pies were justice. Fuck Walder Frey and his nest of treasonous snakes.

Long live Wyman Manderley! If Wyman Manderley fancies a taste of the Freys, good on him though it wouldn't neccessarily be my choice of diet.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Them kids seem to make an excellent shield. It's additionally wrong to kill Symond Frey because he had fathered children, and it's even more wrong to kill Rhaegar Frey, because his had lost their mother already. That's an universal rule, right? Tywin Lannister had children. Aerys II had children. Craster had children. Janos Slynt, too. Killing those fuckers must be positively inexcusable, then. And it's even more bad news for the North: guess what, Fat Walda is pregnant! Which pretty much means Roose Bolton should be untouchable, because what'll happen to his child if he dies? According to civilized rules, fathers are allowed to murder anyone and everyone with impunity, but Manderly apparently didn't get the memo. :(

But hey, here's a thought. Manderly has offspring, too, so I guess he's OK after all?

[LordBloodraven]

I see many people in this forum who aren't disgusted at all by the idea of the Frey Pies. Some people even think Manderly was right to eat the Freys.

OK, so Rhaegar, Symond, and Jared are very unsympathetic people, and we're supposed to cheer when they die.

But Rhaegar had three children, aged 14, 11, and 9. Rhaegar's wife, Jeyne Beesbury, is already dead, so Wyman orphaned three innocent children. We know from Merrett's epilogue that Freys do not trust half-siblings. Now, Rhaegar's children have no close relatives in the Twins: their uncle is an outlaw and their great-aunt is married to Ser Leslyn Haigh. What will happen to these three children when Old Walder dies?

Symond had three children. Alesander Frey is a singer, and Cat grows wary when she learns Alesander, Olyvar, and Perwyn aren't at the Red Wedding. This suggests that Alesander was a decent person, and that he was one of the Freys who were close to Robb or Cat, like Olyvar or Perwyn. And Robb's own bannerman killed his father.

We know almost nothing about Symond's youngest son Bradamar, an 11-year-old, but we do know that he is a ward in Braavos so he knew nothing about the RW. As a ward, Bradamar probably didn't know his father very well, and then Wyman killed his father, before they could ever know each other well.

Wyman killed the Freys because of the Red Wedding. Well, how is killing unsuspecting guests at a wedding any more horrible than killing unsuspecting guests people on a road? Two wrongs don't make a right.

Also note that Wyman fed Fat Walda her own brothers. Fat Walda is a jolly woman and though she did know about the Red Wedding, she didn't really participate in the slaughter. Did Wyman really have to feed her human flesh?

And since the Peasebury men were killed for cannibalism, cannibalism is probably a crime. So while Wyman kills Freys for a crime they committed, he is committing a crime himself.

Frey pies were fair game. Look at what the Freys did in the RW? Thousands of people killed, by breaking social taboos and you dare compare it to the execution of three men guilty for the RW, and who were trying to steal White Harbour from its lawful Lord.

I bet Fat Walda liked it. Particularly, Rhaegar Frey pie. Weasely and tasty. To be washed with Arbor gold.

The irony

Ok, so I'll probably regret asking this, but in light of the "trollish" accusations, why did you choose to equate killing the 3 Freys with the RW? And why is the support for this about trying to play the world's smallest violin for the 3 Freys' kids, and not, for example, taking a position that murder is always wrong?

I guess I'm asking why, if this is genuine, Manderly's wrongness had to be equated to Walder Freys' wrt the RW in order to make the point that murder is wrong, and that, in spite of how our sympathies align, what Manderly did wasn't right in any objective sense, and why despite that, most of us don't care?

Another dig at "Stark-biased" posters, I wager. It will die out

Wyman Manderley had his son and men killed on the pretext of a wedding.

Wyman Manderley has his king killed on the pretext of a wedding.

Wyman Manderley was then forced to listen to bullshit about how his king turned into a wolf and killed his son.

Wyman Manderley was then asked to swear fealty to the same people who orchestrated the Wedding.

Wyman Manderley was then aksed to kill a complete innocent man for wanting to bring justice to his son and the North.

And to top it all off, Wyman Manderley was then asked to marry his precious grand daughter to the same family who killed his son.

Frey Pies were vengeance. Frey Pies were justice. Fuck Walder Frey and his nest of treasonous snakes.

Long live Wyman Manderley! If Wyman Manderley fancies a taste of the Freys, good on him though it wouldn't neccessarily be my choice of diet.

:agree:

[butterbumps!]

Another dig at "Stark-biased" posters, I wager. It will die out

Yea, my suspicion was that this was supposed to elicit the response from fans that was being disputed in the Stark bias threads. Like, proving that Stark fans' moral compass skews only to Starks or something. Kind of an indirect way of justifying those threads.

But, problematically, this takes such an absurdly extreme stance about it, that it's kind of just entrapment.

Which, to everyone who isn't bothered by Frey Pies: As someone who is not at all bothered by them, I just want to put out there that trying to defend them on moral or justice grounds isn't really a tenable position (murder is really the issue). I think this is one of those times we can say "Yea it's immoral, but I don't care."

[cxvb]

I guess I'm asking why, if this is genuine, Manderly's wrongness had to be equated to Walder Freys' wrt the RW

There's your answer, it isn't genuine. (Or so blinkered that it objectively indistinguishable from a troll at which point we, not having access to the mind behind the post, might as well treat is at that which it de facto is.)

A pity, I think the responses to Frey pies are an interesting topic. Then again if the topic wasn't interesting to some, it wouldn't work and with the amount of troll threads around here, some scattershot bait is bound to work.

[Chebyshov]

Which, to everyone who isn't bothered by Frey Pies: As someone who is not at all bothered by them, I just want to put out there that trying to defend them on moral or justice grounds isn't really a tenable position (murder is really the issue). I think this is one of those times we can say "Yea it's immoral, but I don't care."

/thread

I think that's the crux of it right there.

[Mithras]

As someone who is not at all bothered by them, I just want to put out there that trying to defend them on moral or justice grounds isn't really a tenable position (murder is really the issue). I think this is one of those times we can say "Yea it's immoral, but I don't care."

It is interesting that LS gets more shit by just hanging as many Freys as she can her hands on get whereas Wyman is praised for the Frey Pies.

[LordStoneheart]

Which, to everyone who isn't bothered by Frey Pies: As someone who is not at all bothered by them, I just want to put out there that trying to defend them on moral or justice grounds isn't really a tenable position (murder is really the issue). I think this is one of those times we can say "Yea it's immoral, but I don't care."

and butterbumps! comes in to the win the thread!! :bowdown:

Of course it was vengeance but no one can say it wasn't a deserved retaliation.

[LordStoneheart]

It is interesting that LS gets more shit by just hanging as many Freys as she can her hands on get whereas Wyman is praised for the Frey Pies.

I suspect it has something to do with LS being Catelyn and Manderly being in the presence of Davos the Stannislicker for a scene. :lol:

[Storyrook]

Two wrongs don't make a right, unless you are awesome. Wyman Manderly is awesome. So it's fine with me.

Joking aside, I'm in the "it's wrong but doesn't bother me" camp. I don't always dislike or disapprove of fictional characters I'd consider horrible people in real life, and this is one of those occasions. That's partly down to GRRM's writing of Wyman as a sympathetic character up to that point. It's also because if the RW doesn't beg for a good revenge fantasy, I don't know what does.

It's interesting though that so many jump to the conclusion that being fine with Frey pie comes from a place of Stark worship. That is definitely not the case with me. Robb and Catelyn Stark, to be frank, both annoyed the crap out of me. (Robb less so, but still.) Had they died in a less brutal way and brought fewer people down with them, I'm not sure how much it would have bothered me. I feel more sympathy for those of Robb's men who died at the RW than for Robb himself.

I don't love Wyman Manderly as a Stark-by-proxy, I love him as a character in his own right. I think he's a fantastic example of one of my favorite things about this series: minor characters drawn extraordinarily well. The North Remembers speech is one of my favorite moments across all the books so far. He has his good qualities (loyalty, patience, cleverness) and bad qualities (cannabalism) but above all I find him interesting. (I also love Doran Martell, so maybe I just have a thing for doughy, seemingly weak guys who are secretly badasses plotting revenge.)

No, I don't think I'd have advised him to make a pie out of the Freys. But it made me laugh when he did. :dunno:

[Knight Of Winter]

Objectively speaking, it's wrong to have your unsuspecting guests killed (and giving guest gifts is just a technicality - The moment you'll no longer my guests I'll have you killed ). But, practically, I don't give a damn about them - what Freys did was so disgusting and reprehensible that they won't get an ounce of sympathy or pity from me no matter what misfortune befalls them.

Besides, I'm wondering how stupid exactly Jared, Symond and Rhaegar must have been. They arrived to a man whose son and bannermen they brutally murdered, while making up insulting stories about said son's death and proposing pretty humiliating marriages for Wyman's daughters; all while returning their only hostage. Did they really expect no comeuppance from him?

[Mithras]

I suspect it has something to do with LS being Catelyn and Manderly being in the presence of Davos the Stannislicker for a scene. :lol:

We do not know if Wyman gave any trial to those Freys (honestly, he didnot have to given their statements in his court) but LS at least gives trials.

[The King in Black]

We do not know if Wyman gave any trial to those Freys (honestly, he didnot have to given their statements in his court) but LS at least gives trials.

The freys say robb turned to a wolf...

Even Alan Shore couldn't win this one.

[House Hendrix of Rock]

I'm still undecided on if it is human flesh or if those freys were fed to the pigs and the pigs into pies.

[Mithras]

Objectively speaking, it's wrong to have your unsuspecting guests killed (and giving guest gifts is just a technicality - The moment you'll no longer my guests I'll have you killed ). But, practically, I don't give a damn about them - what Freys did was so disgusting and reprehensible that they won't get an ounce of sympathy or pity from me no matter what misfortune befalls them.

No one says that it was an honorable act. Yes the Freys thought that they can trust Wyman just like Robb trusted Walder and Wyman betrayed their trust. But technically speaking, he is a lord and he has a right to arrest criminals and judge them in his domains. Freys openly lied to him and made hidden threats to him and bought people in his court to spy on him. Even without any reference to the RW, he had the right to catch and execute them and since he is not a fat fool, he did that secretly.

However, feeding them to Boltons and Freys was sick and wrong. He can lie to save his neck and his people about the missing Freys but serving them in the wedding serves no good except grisly revenge.

Besides, I'm wondering how stupid exactly Jared, Symond and Rhaegar must have been. They arrived to a man whose son and bannermen they brutally murdered, while making up insulting stories about said son's death and proposing pretty humiliating marriages for Wyman's daughters; all while returning their only hostage. Did they really expect no comeuppance from him?

They thought that he is a fat old fool and they showed mailed fist behind those warm words. They had the backing of the IT. And they had his son and heir as a hostage.

[JonBranRickon]

Wyman Manderley had his son and men killed on the pretext of a wedding.

Wyman Manderley has his king killed on the pretext of a wedding.

Wyman Manderley was then forced to listen to bullshit about how his king turned into a wolf and killed his son.

Wyman Manderley was then asked to swear fealty to the same people who orchestrated the Wedding.

Wyman Manderley was then aksed to kill a complete innocent man for wanting to bring justice to his son and the North.

And to top it all off, Wyman Manderley was then asked to marry his precious grand daughter to the same family who killed his son.

Frey Pies were vengeance. Frey Pies were justice. Fuck Walder Frey and his nest of treasonous snakes.

Long live Wyman Manderley! If Wyman Manderley fancies a taste of the Freys, good on him though it wouldn't neccessarily be my choice of diet.

You have hit the nail on the head - any discussion about morals goes out the door when you think of the atrocities he has suffered. The Freys, Lannisters and Boltons have no moral code.

[Game Of Thrones]

Manderly was trying to avenge his son, who was murdered in a particularly underhanded, treacherous and dishonourable way. That's something people sympathize with.

Generally we don't care that much that Walder didn't bag Robb as a son-in-law. It is a bit daft to expect readers to view these two events in the same way.

But yes, if you like to write sermons about how vengeance is wrong you are going to get into a muddle defending one and not the other.

I never defended the RW. I have no idea why people are claiming that I did.

[Game Of Thrones]

Yea, my suspicion was that this was supposed to elicit the response from fans that was being disputed in the Stark bias threads. Like, proving that Stark fans' moral compass skews only to Starks or something. Kind of an indirect way of justifying those threads.

If you actually see my posts on the Stark bias threads, it's pretty obvious that's not true.

[Knight Of Winter]

1) No one says that it was an honorable act. Yes the Freys thought that they can trust Wyman just like Robb trusted Walder and Wyman betrayed their trust. But technically speaking, he is a lord and he has a right to arrest criminals and judge them in his domains. Freys openly lied to him and made hidden threats to him and bought people in his court to spy on him. Even without any reference to the RW, he had the right to catch and execute them and since he is not a fat fool, he did that secretly.

However, feeding them to Boltons and Freys was sick and wrong. He can lie to save his neck and his people about the missing Freys but serving them in the wedding serves no good except grisly revenge.

2)T hey thought that he is a fat old fool and they showed mailed fist behind those warm words. They had the backing of the IT. And they had his son and heir as a hostage.

1) No, it's not honourable by any stretch of imagination; but as I said - at this point I don't care what exactly happens to RW participants. They can get chased down, hanged, cheated, killed or eaten - and all I'll think is They had it coming.

2) I know, but sheer lack of thinking on Freys' part is beyond stupid. Especially given how they just came to return their only hostage.

[sj4iy]

This is fiction. I can't be bothered to get outraged about fiction.

I laughed when I figured out what he had done. It made me like him. I wouldn't have done the same for a situation like that in real life, but this isn't real life.