Wyman was very wrong to eat the Freys (Changed thread title)

[Ser Eric]

If cannibalism's wrong I don't want to be right. :drool: :drool: :drool:

I know your joking but if murder is fine then how the hell does it matter what you do with the body? Winter is coming and food is scarce. Might as well use it :drool:

[butterbumps!]

No, it isn't and we cannot. It betrays EVERYTHING a person like Eddard Stark stood for.

Manderly deserved justice, right. But not revenge.

Revenge is the path to hell. Always. And even in a world like Westeros. GRRM gave us so many example...

This is what I wrote in the recent MMD/Dany thread about revenge and justice...

Did you read what I wrote?:

Which, to everyone who isn't bothered by Frey Pies: As someone who is not at all bothered by them, I just want to put out there that trying to defend them on moral or justice grounds isn't really a tenable position (murder is really the issue). I think this is one of those times we can say "Yea it's immoral, but I don't care."

I pretty explicitly stated that trying to defend this act on moral or just grounds was untenable. So correcting me by pointing out that revenge=/= justice, and that this is not justice makes no sense.

Not sure why you bolded the part where I said "this is one of those times we can say 'Yea it's immoral, but I don't care," addressed to those who might have felt compelled to try to defend Manderly's actions on either moral or just grounds. Are you arguing that I should care that Manderly did this? Even though I've plainly stated that the whole thing was immoral, and am not trying to play this off otherwise?

[The Wolves]

No, it isn't and we cannot. It betrays EVERYTHING a person like Eddard Stark stood for.

Manderly deserved justice, right. But not revenge.

When was any house ever going to get justice for the RW, with the crown actively backing and condoning that behavior?

And when have justice ever been given to anybody in Westeros?

[Arakan]

Please tell me, how Wyman Manderley should have gone about getting justice and vengeance?

Have an open and fair trial where all the Freys vouch for the wolf killing his son while his remaining son gets beheaded by the same people. I wonder why Wyman didn't go down that route...

Right now I have no answer...and yes, justice is much more complicated than revenge!

I like Manderly quite alot and he DERSERVED justice, and those Freys who were guilty of the RW deserve to be punished but you tell me that the only thing Manderly could have done was killing those three Freys, butchering them and feeding them to their family?

Do you think someone like Eddard Stark, Robb or Jon would approve such form of revenge?

Arya maybe but she is on a downward spiral herself...

Maybe I have to add that I am an opponent of killing everyone who bears the name "Frey" just because her or she bears the name "Frey".

[ChillyPolly]

Please tell me, how Wyman Manderley should have gone about getting justice and vengeance?

Maybe he shouldn't go about it, if it is, in the circumstances, unobtainable except by forbidden means. Is that concept really so hard?

[Mithras]

By the way, I do not blame Manderly for acting sneakily. I do not think he murdered them as well. He had every right to catch and execute them. He also have every right to hide his true allegiance and even lie in a situation where revealing your cloak will get you and your family killed.

The only thing I object is the Frey Pie thing. Everything about the death of these Freys can be explained with reference to laws and justice but Frey Pies have nothing to do with justice. It is 100 % revenge.

[Ser Eric]

Right now I have no answer...and yes, justice is much more complicated than revenge!

I like Manderly quite alot and he DERSERVED justice, and those Freys who were guilty of the RW deserve to be punished but you tell me that the only thing Manderly could have done was killing those three Freys, butchering them and feeding them to their family?

Do you think someone like Eddard Stark, Robb or Jon would approve such form of revenge?

Arya maybe but she is on a downward spiral herself...

Maybe I have to add that I am an opponent of killing everyone who bears the name "Frey" just because her or she bears the name "Frey".

You have no answer because there is none. A "trial" would have achieved nothing

Manderley wanted justice and he deserved justice. But he was never going to have it for different reasons. So, he took matters into his own hands. Good on him.

The Freys killed were part of the RW and were helping covering up the true events. Fair game.

Maybe he shouldn't go about it, if it is, in the circumstances, unobtainable except by forbidden means. Is that concept really so hard?

Idealistic nonsense. Not going about it also means handing over his grand daughter to the killers of his son.

[dielsis]

People should read those passages carefully as GRRM is showing us what the concepts of "revenge", "vendetta", "blood feud" actually mean. At the end of the day nothing more than a descent into violence and more violence, an endless circle. Who was right or wrong rather sooner than later is completely irrelevant.

…

This list can go on and on...the message we should take out of it: revenge is BULLSHIT. Justice is what is needed.

This is very well said.

I feel like there may be some misunderstandings going on in this thread - from the view of it being awesome and the view of it being wrong.

I'm non-violent and against weapons/harming others so I would never advocate any of the supposed "justices" or "revenges" enacted in these books. Yet, one of my favorite scenes is "Only Cat" from a literary standpoint - the actual events of that scene are unequivocally awful. Petyr is a terrible person. He's incredibly well-written, though, and I appreciate that part of it.

The same goes for our Rat Cook-loving "friend," Wyman: Despicable, cheap ass, reprehensible move. In book context, that duplicity and willingness to sidestep morals is amazingly executed.

However, regarding my thought on misunderstanding: Someone mentioned "rape advocacy" - would there actually be discussion of such a thing if there wasn't a ban? It may be me underestimating the maturity of the posters here, if that's the case (I'm fairly new and operating under "assume positive intent").

[Ser RoddyRuinuous]

When I figured out Frey Pies, I had three stages of reaction:

1. MUWAHAHAHA! This is what you get, Freys, when you mess with the North AND Ser Davos.

2. Eww.

3. My gods, the Boltons are screwed.

[Trigger Warning]

Were the Starks fair game for the Freys then?

I don't particularly care about Manderly's actions but the way he went about it was hardly justice, just vengeance and what the Freys did to Robb was also just vengeance, not justice.

[ChillyPolly]

Idealistic nonsense. Not going about it also means handing over his grand daughter to the killers of his son.

How does murdering and eating the Freys protect his son or his Daughter?

[The Marquis de Leech]

By the way, I do not blame Manderly for acting sneakily. I do not think he murdered them as well. He had every right to catch and execute them.

Execution implies judicial process. Do you honestly think he granted the three a trial?

[The Bloody Hound]

How does murdering and eating the Freys protect his son or his Daughter?

His grand daughter was betrothed to a Frey, IIRC it was one of the Freys killed.

Eta, she was engaged to Little Walder, who was found dead at Winterfell. So it's irrelevant to the 3 freys killed outside WH.

[LordBloodraven]

Execution implies judicial process. Do you honestly think he granted the three a trial?

Kangaroo court. We just don't know really

[Jon's Queen Consort]

the man deserved to die.

What exactly Rhaegar had done that deserve to die for?

[Arakan]

This is very well said.

I feel like there may be some misunderstandings going on in this thread - from the view of it being awesome and the view of it being wrong.

I'm non-violent and against weapons/harming others so I would never advocate any of the supposed "justices" or "revenges" enacted in these books. Yet, one of my favorite scenes is "Only Cat" from a literary standpoint - the actual events of that scene are unequivocally awful. Petyr is a terrible person. He's incredibly well-written, though, and I appreciate that part of it.

The same goes for our Rat Cook-loving "friend," Wyman: Despicable, cheap ass, reprehensible move. In book context, that duplicity and willingness to sidestep morals is amazingly executed.

However, regarding my thought on misunderstanding: Someone mentioned "rape advocacy" - would there actually be discussion of such a thing if there wasn't a ban? It may be me underestimating the maturity of the posters here, if that's the case (I'm fairly new and operating under "assume positive intent").

This is the crucial point. On these boards, 16 year olds are often discussing with 50 year olds which gets easily forgotten (as everywhere on the internet).

I do not mean it in any patronizing or condescending way but I just have to look at myself and how my views about many things in life have dramatically changed over the years.

[kiasyd]

Everyone seems to agree that Manderly claimed revenge, not justice. If he is entitled to justice, it follows he was wronged. However, in Westeros current administration the government is corrupt and actually sponsored the injustice in question.

Westeros is back in the state of nature: Rebellions, war and slaughter are erupting everywhere, and the current administration isn't capable of holding the realm together. In such an state, it makes no sense to talk about justice - it simply doesn't exist anymore.

As many have said, the basic fact is that Manderly murdered three Freys - it is murder, and as butterbumps! (and others) said, obviously immoral. However, with the realm back in the state of nature, Manderly felt entitled to exact his revenge... Who can blame him? Three Freys are an homeopathic drop of blood the ocean that Westeros sunk to. It makes no sense to judge characters actions by our own current moral and social standards.

*sigh*... In these discussion I always end up remembering that Weasel little girl, who follows Arya around in aCoK. It's a joke to talk about justice in current Westeros.

Back on the Frey Pies - narratively speaking, I think the scene was great and very enjoyable in a Tarantino-way. :laugh:

[Minuteman]

The pies were described as being pork and Manderly's trip was very long. I think it likely he killed them and fed them to pigs which he in turn put into the pies. So he only ate the Frey's metaphorically. I just don't buy the cannibalism part given the way Manderly behaved otherwise.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Please tell me, how Wyman Manderley should have gone about getting justice and vengeance?

I agree with this.

It is the same with Walder. How else was he going to get justice and vengeance for the loss of Ryman, Cleos and Tion lives or the Frey soldiers lives who must have been sacrificed winning Robb his victories.

[Torph]

Before reading this thread I had absolutely no idea that this was even a possibility and now find myself hoping that it's 100% factual...