Why do you care that Jon is a bastard?

[Hypnomagica]

Just something that has always puzzled me. I've seen many threads discussing Jon's potential inheritance of Winterfell/The North, and in all of these discussions it has been a common thing to see someone saying that Jon should never inhereit WF because he is not true born. This argument being that even though Jon is now technically legitimate, the fact that he is not "true born" means that he would be stealing WF form Bran because Bran was born to Lady Catelyn.

My question, why is this something that people of modern sensibilities should care about? Jon is as much a Stark as any of his other siblings which is all that would matter in modern Western society in regards to inheritance. I get that his bastardy is a negative mark in the WOIAF but why are so many readers so against Jon inheriting WF before his younger brothers?

[Pilusmagnus]

Jon is in the Night's Watch. Night's watchmen can hold no lands and their vows are taken for life. That's all we need to discuss.

[Hypnomagica]

Jon is in the Night's Watch. Night's watchmen can hold no lands and their vows are taken for life. That's all we need to discuss.

Except that is not the point of this discussion, I am not trying to argue whether or not Jon SHOULD inherit the throne, just why some people care that his mother was not Catelyn in the event of his being absolved of his fights or whatever other circumstances that would put him in the running for ruling WF.

[Pilusmagnus]

Well those people who care about it are stupid, because Jon CANNOT inherit Winterfell. There's no point in discussing whether he is a bastard or not. He cannot and he will not.

[Hypnomagica]

Well those people who care about it are stupid, because Jon CANNOT inherit Winterfell. There's no point in discussing whether he is a bastard or not. He cannot and he will not.

You're free to have your opinion but if you aren't going to even address the actual topic I have to wonder why you bothered to post here in the first place.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Well those people who care about it are stupid, because Jon CANNOT inherit Winterfell. There's no point in discussing whether he is a bastard or not. He cannot and he will not.

You have read the next two books? :eek: Please say more!

@OP, I believe that some people mostly haters tend to refer to Jon's parentage in various ways as an insult. I don't believe that anyone actually cares if he isn't or not. However I believe that saying for example X plus J equals B but since we know that A is there then H cannot be K is just what is in the books and not personal preference.

[Lord Bowie]

So does this line of thought makes Joffrey king?

I'm all for "blood is not that important" and I truly believe that all this genetics and heirs, hidden Targs, bastards, Starks are better and so on doesn't matter in today's society and specially in my own life and personal opinion. BUT, in the world of Ice and Fire, it matters. A lot. GRRM has his own rules regarding genes and magic, so there must be always a Stark in Winterfell and Jon is not one.

[Hypnomagica]

So does this line of thought makes Joffrey king?

I'm all for "blood is not that important" and I truly believe that all this genetics and heirs, hidden Targs, bastards, Starks are better and so on doesn't matter in today's society and specially in my own life and personal opinion. BUT, in the world of Ice and Fire, it matters. A lot. GRRM has his own rules regarding genes and magic, so there must be always a Stark in Winterfell and Jon is not one.

Except that he is. Robb legitimized him, which makes him legally as much a Stark as any of his siblings. And from a magical blood line perspective he always was, as demonstrated by the fact that he is a warg and "all of the Stark children are wargs".

[Biter the Gallant]

Well those people who care about it are stupid, because Jon CANNOT inherit Winterfell. There's no point in discussing whether he is a bastard or not. He cannot and he will not.

Of course he can. People can be released of their Night's watch wows, it is just very uncommon. Otherwise the temptations of Aemon to become king would not have been real... Actually, Stannis has given Jon the possibility. If he decides that way, he now could be one of the lords marching with Stannis's host.

[WarLord]

If Jon's fathet is a Stark like Ned or Brandon then he has a right to Winterfell if he gets legitimised.

But if his father is not a Stark but a Targareyn then he has no right to Winterfell; though he will have rights to Targareyn claims.

Someone with Targaryen father has no right to Winterfell as long as any boy or girl from the male line is alive.

[Mokymok]

If Jon's fathet is a Stark like Ned or Brandon then he has a right to Winterfell if he gets legitimised.

But if his father is not a Stark but a Targareyn then he has no right to Winterfell; though he will have rights to Targareyn claims.

Someone with Targaryen father has no right to Winterfell as long as any boy or girl from the male line is alive.

[sj4iy]

Actually, I've seen quite the opposite reaction...people like the fact that he is a bastard, and don't like the possibility of Jon being true born (ie: legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna) because they think it would "undermine" everything he's worked for. However, I think having grown up in that type if life has made him more sympathetic to the common man, and more understanding of people like the Wildlings. No matter what happens to him after this or what they call him, he won't lose that or forget the lessons he learned.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Someone with Targaryen father has no right to Winterfell as long as any boy or girl from the male line is alive.

I have to disagree. For example if Jon who has a Targ father is Rickard's only living grandchild he comes before Rickard's bothers, if he had any. Those brothers would had come from male line and Jon from female but he comes first.

[sj4iy]

If Jon's fathet is a Stark like Ned or Brandon then he has a right to Winterfell if he gets legitimised.

But if his father is not a Stark but a Targareyn then he has no right to Winterfell; though he will have rights to Targareyn claims.

Someone with Targaryen father has no right to Winterfell as long as any boy or girl from the male line is alive.

Not true at all. He's still half-Stark on his mother's side, and we clearly see that in the North, women are allowed in the line of succession as long as their are no male heirs. Without Benjen, Jon would be 6th in line for Winterfell after all of Eddard's children. If female heirs were disallowed, we wouldn't see Robb worry about Sansa inheriting Winterfell nor would we see Alys Karstark's plight.

[WarLord]

I have to disagree. For example if Jon who has a Targ father is Rickard's only living grandchild he comes before Rickard's bothers, if he had any. Those brothers would had come from male line and Jon from female but he comes first.

But that will only happen if all of Eddards children die.

[UnmaskedLurker]

While there is no singular view regarding Jon as a bastard, I agree with sj4iy that the most common view of people who care about whether Jon is a bastard want him to be a bastard because they think being a bastard is so tied into his identity that it would somehow change Jon if he really is not a bastard--and the theme that a bastard is able to accomplish anything notwithstanding birth circumstances will be undermined if Jon really was the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

But as to the inheritance of WF, I think people are simply applying the rules of Westeros and think the "in-story" rules should be followed by the people living in Westeros. So I think many people believe that Jon would be "stealing" WF from Bran or Rickon (if Bran never returns from the tree) if Jon took WF ahead of them. In other words, yes, Robb made Jon his heir, but only due to a mistake of fact. Even a legitimized bastard--under the rules of the North in Westeros--would normally inherit only after "true born" children. So people are not imposing their own modern sensibilities--where titles should be eliminated and inheritance should be divided fairly among all children--but applying what they think would be "right" under the rules under which these characters are living. So if Jon somehow uses Robb's will to take WF from Bran or Rickon, then Jon somehow is cheating them out of their rightful inheritance that Robb would have wanted for them if Robb knew they were still alive. Personally, I think Jon would abdicate in favor of Bran or Rickon under these circumstances, so it would not be an issue. But many people get caught up in the "legalistic" arguments of whose rights supercede whose under the rules set up by GRRM for these characters.

This issue of Jon not being entitled to inherit because he is of the NW is also, of course, an issue. But I think there are reasons to believe Jon might be relieved of these vows or possibly that the NW might be dissolved after the Wall falls. But there are those people who like the idea that Jon took this vow and is so honorable that he would never break the vow to take a title. Of course, that line of thinking has nothing to do with Jon being a bastard.

[Mokymok]

If he was legitimized, it was because Robb thought that Bran, Rickon and Arya were dead. If not for that, Robb wouldn't even have thought about Jon.

[DamoDega]

My question, why is this something that people of modern sensibilities should care about? Jon is as much a Stark as any of his other siblings which is all that would matter in modern Western society in regards to inheritance. I get that his bastardy is a negative mark in the WOIAF but why are so many readers so against Jon inheriting WF before his younger brothers?

I don't get this

ASOIAF is not about today, our society or our "modern sensibilities"

I don't read pretending to blend that world into mine, or judge it based on what today society pushed in my head

And that's imho is a disease ever more common in all media the more things go on, ASOIAF TV show itself (that i really love, but is not the point) is a good example

[Panther2000]

Very good point, I always wondered the same thing. Just in general( outside of the story) there is NO DIFFERENCE between Adopted kids, Bio kids, half kids, etc. In a family they all should be treated the same. If raised together in a family, then they are family.

It kind of pisses me off when the MEDIA makes the difference between Angelina & Brads kids. I loved that brad had to set them straight at 1 point. Their kids are their KIDS, not matter what.

Now in regards to the story, It is the story & that is how things went back in the day. Hell, even So called TRUE BORNS, were killing each other off so they could they could be the only 1's. So much for The ROYALS. Frankly, I have always found them the Worst of man kind. There were very few worthy of being ROYAL & thought of his fellow man.

I think that Jon being "a Bastard" & being treated the way he has by CAT & other members of the Stark household( not Rob, Bran, Araya, & Rickon) actually works in his favor. Jon looks at the bigger picture, the world is not just black & white, there is many shades of grey. Just like Giantsbane stated on the show, Jon is a Wilding at heart now. Not a crazed widling but, according to laws of Westeros he might as well be one now. Thank god, he went to The Wall, otherwise he would have been killed right along with Rob at the Red Wedding. Not to mention that he has a greater outlook on the value all life & become who he REALLY IS. I think the same could ALMOST be said for Tyrion ( though he isn't a bastard, "But all dwarves are Bastards in their fathers eyes").

[UnmaskedLurker]

If he was legitimized, it was because Robb thought that Bran, Rickon and Arya were dead. If not for that, Robb wouldn't even have thought about Jon.

Perhaps true--but so what? Robb did what he did. Whether Robb would have done things differently if he knew the actually truth about Bran, Rickon and Arya really does not matter. Robb's will still says what it says (assuming it comes to light), and I believe would still have the force of "law" in the North. Now I agree that Jon would not try to enforce his right to WF over Bran, Rickon or Arya--but that is a different issue (as is Jon's vows to NW).