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So, uh, I know the US criminal justice system was screwed up...


Galactus

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http://musicians4freedom.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/The-New-Jim-Crow-Ohio-State-Journal-of-Criminal-Law-by-Michelle-Alexander.pdf



But this? This is pretty crazy. And it's not even just the ludicrous sentencing, or the racial bias, it's how seemingly being labelled a felon seems to almost de-facto turn you into an outlaw.





Fees and fines. What do we expect people convicted of drug


felonies to do? Even if they manage to escape jail time and get

nothing more than probation, they will be discriminated against in

employment, denied public housing, locked out of the private

housing market, and possibly denied even food stamps. Apparently

what we expect them to do is to pay hundreds or thousands of

dollars in fees, fines, court costs, and accumulated back child

support—frequently as a condition of probation or parole.65 And

here’s the kicker: Even if a former prisoner manages to get a job, up

to 100% of their wages can be garnished to pay for the costs of their

imprisonment, court processing fees, and back payments in child

support.66 Yes, 100% of their wages can be garnished.



The fuck?



The denial of the right to vote to felons has always seemed fuzzy to me, but the more I read it sounds less like a badly implemented policy and more as a genuine plot to undermine democracy.


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http://musicians4freedom.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/The-New-Jim-Crow-Ohio-State-Journal-of-Criminal-Law-by-Michelle-Alexander.pdf

But this? This is pretty crazy. And it's not even just the ludicrous sentencing, or the racial bias, it's how seemingly being labelled a felon seems to almost de-facto turn you into an outlaw.

The fuck?

The denial of the right to vote to felons has always seemed fuzzy to me, but the more I read it sounds less like a badly implemented policy and more as a genuine plot to undermine democracy.

The only part that's questionable to me is the claim that 100% of their wages can be garnished to pay for costs of imprisonment, court processing fees, and back payments in child support. Where I practice, the first two would be treated differently than the last thing (the child support). And where I am completely opposed to 100% of a person's salary being garnished to pay for reimbursement for imprisonment and court processing fees, I am only opposed in a qualified sense to 100% of a person's salary being garnished to pay back child support. I don't think it's a good general policy, but I am not 100% opposed to it in the right circumstances.

**Edited to add: I was recently in Court in Pennsylvania for a personal matter. In the hallway outside of the courtroom, there were multiple posters up warning kids against the danger and legal consequences of underage drinking. Including the fact that you could be charged with it and it would result in a criminal history that would limit your ability to access jobs and that you could be denied scholarships or have your scholarships revoked if you were found guilty of underage drinking.

It's hard to imagine a more counterproductive strategy for combating underage drinking than inflicting a lifetime of punishment on kids who were otherwise (i) good students who earned merit scholarships or (ii) poor students who obtained need-based scholarships and who were actively pursuing higher education. It kind of boggles the mind.

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I'm curious how many other democratic countries take the task of making the lives of convicted drug felons into a nightmare to such extremes. Certainly not the case in Europe (as far as I know).



Will try to read the entire paper later when I have time, looks interesting.


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That's insane, charging inmates for the cost of their imprisonment. How are they supposed to ever get out of debt again once they are released? And even though paying child support / damages is OK, there should be a part of the wages they can keep for themselves. Otherwise there is no incentive to ever try to find work again, if you can't even use a small amount of your wages so that you can support yourself.


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That's insane, charging inmates for the cost of their imprisonment. How are they supposed to ever get out of debt again once they are released?

/sarcasm Well how else would you prevent people from taking advantage of the system and enjoying jail time for free? Warm cells, 3 meals a day, 24-hour security. Living the dream. Surely that can't be free!

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It's all part of the corrections-based economy. Prisons used to be largely self sufficient, with their own farming and dairy facilities that were operated by the inmates. Instead, today, they're effectively a long series of corporate subsidies to service providers - something which only drives the cost of incarceration up.


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So, the state makes felons out of offenders, often for low-level drug offenses, creates laws that impose exorbitant incarceration and probation fees on these felons, eventually release these felons on the condition that they find employment and pay their fees, with the caveat being that having a felony on your record greatly reduces the chance of being able to find employment, since you're obligated by law to report any felonies of which you've been convicted during the application process. The end result being that these former inmates are unable to meet the terms of their release and are cycled right back into the prison system.

In Germany, you even have the right to *lie* about your criminal record, if your crime has nothing to do with the job you want to get. And your criminal records are deleted after a certain time, to give you a chance on the job market. For juveniles, lesser crimes don't even show up on your criminal record, as it's a fact that many juveniles who screw up in their teens manage to lead a law-abiding life later, if they get the chance.

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The USA has one of the worst prison systems in the developed world. I caught this recently on Sky Atlantic:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pz3syET3DY



I particularly loved the bit about re-assuring potential investors that their felons had high re-conviction rates.



In the UK, we have this vague idea about prisons being, potentially, a means of rehabilitation.

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Exactly. If your aim is to have *low* re-conviction rates, your prison system can be actually humane and affordable. Without handing it over to private companies.



edit: Of course, the aim of rehabilitation can not always be reached, but a state can at least try.


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It's just so... Counterproductive. I don't even think the issue is the criminalization of drug use per se (other countries do that and don't seem to have the kind of issues the US does) but rahter the US insistence to permanently mark a person as "criminal" and then legalize discrimination based on that marker.


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it's very much been a race politics in the US historically. abolish slavery except for forced labor after conviction, and then go convict all of the local african-americans for ludicrous offenses like vagrancy, mischief, apodyopsis of a god fearing white woman, &c. strip convicts of civil & political rights, allow employers to refuse to hire convicts, and booyah no more blacks!


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It's just so... Counterproductive. I don't even think the issue is the criminalization of drug use per se (other countries do that and don't seem to have the kind of issues the US does) but rahter the US insistence to permanently mark a person as "criminal" and then legalize discrimination based on that marker.

Hey hundreds of thousands of people risk everything coming over to the US every year, if some of the guys all ready over here show any signs of being deviant or aberrant it would be stupid not to single them out.

it's very much been a race politics in the US historically. abolish slavery except for forced labor after conviction, and then go convict all of the local african-americans for ludicrous offenses like vagrancy, mischief, apodyopsis of a god fearing white woman, &c. strip convicts of civil & political rights, allow employers to refuse to hire convicts, and booyah no more blacks!

That's not fair, they go after the White and Hispanic guys too, its just harder to get them, the Whites have money for lawyers and the Hispanic guy can always go back to his country or assume a new identity, the Hispanic guy also has a big advantage to begin with, he starts off with a blank slate. Keep in mind that the prisons aren't stuffed with black women, its just the men who really draw the scrutiny.

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As great as this country is, it does some fucked-up shit.



The other thing is that because these guys have a hard time finding employment due to their criminal past they turn to, wait for it ... crime!



So, as The Great Unwashed stated, they're recycled back into the prison system.


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yawn, just a return of debtors prison and the wonderful old system of private law vs public law. As everyone knows, there are two legal systems, one for the monied gentry and one for everyone else. For example:

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-08-28/nation-of-privilege-versus-rule-of-law

In 2010, Martin Erzinger, a private-wealth manager for Morgan Stanley Smith Barney, was the driver in a hit-and-run of a bicyclist in Eagle, Colorado. The victim suffered spinal injuries and brain bleeding. But the prosecutor dropped felony charges against Erzinger, giving the following justification:

Felony convictions have some pretty serious job implications for someone in Mr. Erzinger's profession, and that entered into it," [prosecutor] Hurlbert said. "When you're talking about restitution, you don't want to take away his ability to pay.

So a rich guy got a lighter sentence because a heavier sentence would prevent him from being rich. Obviously, this get-out-of-jail-free card isn't available to someone from the middle class

Earlier this year, Texas teenager Ethan Couch drove drunk and killed four people, but was punished only with rehab and probation. Part of Couch’s defense was that, having been raised rich, he didn’t know any better

Earlier this year, an heir to the du Pont fortune got little more than a wrist slap after raping his 3-year-old daughter. The reason:

A judge who sentenced a wealthy du Pont heir to probation in the rape of his three-year-old daughter said in court documents that he would "not fare well" in prison, reports Delaware's News Journal.

And then there was the recent case of wealthy Washington state businessman Shaun Goodman, who got a minimal sentence for his seventh DUI, for the following reason:

According to Washington Courts, anyone with a BAC above .15 with two or more prior offenses, must face mandatory jail time of 120 days…However, Judge Christine Schaller gave Goodman a year of work release. Defense attorney Paul Strophy argued that Goodman's business would fail and his client's employees would be out of a job if Goodman wasn't present for work.

Again, that is a get-out-of-jail free card that middle-class Americans, white or black, can never use.

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Hey hundreds of thousands of people risk everything coming over to the US every year, if some of the guys all ready over here show any signs of being deviant or aberrant it would be stupid not to single them out.

That's not fair, they go after the White and Hispanic guys too, its just harder to get them, the Whites have money for lawyers and the Hispanic guy can always go back to his country or assume a new identity, the Hispanic guy also has a big advantage to begin with, he starts off with a blank slate. Keep in mind that the prisons aren't stuffed with black women, its just the men who really draw the scrutiny.

What are you talking about? How is a non-violent guy nickel-and-diming on the corner some kind of monster or threat to society? These guys usually stop once they get into their 20s and go on to be productive members of society. They also stop after their first arrest and, again, go on to be productive members of society.

I'm sure you've never done anything that could have been misconstrued as being deviant or aberrant.

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Read the entire article. Didn't follow through on all of the sourced data (seemed like too daunting a task) and although some of the statistics are presented in a way that fits the narrative a bit too well, I do not harbour a sliver of doubt that the essence of the issue is exactly as presented. I have long known some of the facts from this article, but to see them all synthesized in one place with sourced material allowed me to fill in the few missing pieces of the puzzle.



I have only one question for anyone, who is familiar with the relevant statutes - can a convicted felon leave the US by legal means - does it depend on the felony, whether he's on probation, parole or has served his sentence - and seek asylum in another country if he falls victim to the mass incarceration machine? Which countries would be likely to offer asylum and what is the best way to plead for one?



If the above is possible, it should be the option pursued by every victim of that system. Absolutely no doubt about it. Discrimination of such a level, and in a society that otherwise professes equality on a daily basis, should not be endured by any human being in today's world if there is escape possible.


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What are you talking about? How is a non-violent guy nickel-and-diming on the corner some kind of monster or threat to society? These guys usually stop once they get into their 20s and go on to be productive members of society. They also stop after their first arrest and, again, go on to be productive members of society.

I'm sure you've never done anything that could have been misconstrued as being deviant or aberrant.

I was sort of being sarcastic and no I've never been caught doing anything deviant or aberrant. Still its way harder for the guy who has.

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I was sort of being sarcastic and no I've never been caught doing anything deviant or aberrant. Still its way harder for the guy who has.

He didn't say whether or not you've been caught, but whether you've done anything period. Everybody has.

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Believe me, not getting caught is the important part. Just ask all those poor guys who are in jail.

It's not just about not getting caught, it's about not looking like an easy target. In the US, a dedicated prosecutor could probably get you into prison. But why would they bother with a nice upstanding person like you who can afford a lawyer and probably won't plea bargain when the world is so full of soft targets?

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