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Why did Oberyn lose?


Trogdor Targaryen

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After Sandor and Tyrion won their Trials by Combat, I had developed a certain trust that trials by combat would yield genuine results. Based on this reasoning I was beginning to believe that Cersei would be found guilty after the fall of Robert Strong during the upcoming trial, which will have an outstanding Impact on the course of events.


However, I realized that there is one Trial by combat, which we, as the readers, know ended with an innocent person being declared guilty by the "God's". This made me think, at first that these trials are actually UNreliable, but then I started to consider what that trial was really judging.


The Red Viper managed to take an unexpected lead against The Mountain earlier on in the fight and would have come out victorious, except the Trial shifted from judging Tyrion as the defendant, against the crown as the accuser, to judging Tywin as the defendant, Oberyn as the accuser. I feel that this is why Gregor was mortally wounded and brought to a point of seeming hopelessness, yet still won in the end.


Tyrion was innocent so Gregor, the Champion of the accuser of him failed, and lost his own trial, but when Oberyn became the accuser of Tywin, he lost as the incorrect accuser. It seems like he was right, though, as we know that the mountain IS responsible for killing Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys but he was just the executor of the "order" from Tywin. Tywin certainly ordered the death of Aegon and Rhaenys to eliminate the threat to the targaryen children returning to claim the throne. However, according to Tywin, he never ordered the murder of Elia, which was unnecessary, but only neglected to mention not to kill her. Oberyn was fixated primarily on demanding that Gregor admit who gave the order to kill Elia, which is a crime to place upon Gregor, the champion, not on Tywin, the accused.


This might just be me justifying faith in these trials by combat, but I like to believe that the "gods" are actually paying attention to this kind of matter, and that there's validity to these trials by combat.


Do any of you think this makes sense? Or am I losing my mind trying to convince myself that this is true?


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Yes, you are trying to convince yourself :cheers:



There are no gods interfering with trials by combat. Actually, we'll never have gods interfering. At least not in such a way to prove their existance.



Your example of the Hound succeeding in his trial because of his innocence? He was definitely guilty, admitted it himself.


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Oberyn lost because he meant to.



I often hear people bewailing the fact that Oberyn died so soon after he was introduced and mention this as yet another way the fates toy with Tyrion.



I disagree-I think Oberyn had made up his mind to die long before he stepped onto the arena. He offered to be Tyrion's champion after careful consideration and he did so both as a final "fuck you" to Tywin and to galvanise Dorne into an uprising.



Consider, if Gregor's confession is all he wanted, what a paltry prize that is to risk one's life for: it's like getting Payne to confess to Ned's murder-what impact would it have, what justice would it bring?



Then consider his weapon: a spear tipped with a slow acting poison. If he meant to win, why would he use a slow acting poison?



And if he had won, what would he have acheived? Gregor's life and nothing else-Tywin would have all his children living and his only lose would be an unmanageable heir who could in death be lionised and martyred.



Whereas, if he lost willingly, Tywin is forced to sentence his own son to death as both a kinslayer and a regicide. The Lannister family is disgraced and the royal family stained by the death of the boy king at his own wedding feast. He also provides a fresh cause to rally the Dornish as a united front behind Daenerys when she arrives.



And this I feel not only enhances his character but makes it more badass. He ensures that Tywin's son would die a kinslayer and a regicide.



He serves the Lannisters what they've been feeding Dorne for fifteen years: injustice.



He couldn't get Elia justice but he died-and died willingly-getting the closest thing he could find: vengeance.


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Why do you think the gods got it right in Sandor's trial? He most certainly did kill Mycah.

Yeah, this. "If the Gods were good..." Beric would have finished the Hound off in their trial.

I do think you have too much faith in trials by combat, or perhaps more generally the Gods. The Gods (take your pick) are generally not so good in ASOIAF.

ETA: Still, a nice analysis of the trial, and the shifting focus of accusation, certainly agree with that point.

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Why do bad guys always in the movies before they kill the main good guy they always say something like finally i got you and it gives the main good guy time to get away and live whilst the bad guy should have just walked up to him and put a bullet in his brain this is the same thing (sorta)


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Why do you think the gods got it right in Sandor's trial? He most certainly did kill Mycah.

I consider Sandor to be innocent in the case of Mycah because he was just following his orders. Just like Oberyn considered Tywin the guilty party in the case of Elia being murdered, Joffery is the one who ordered Mycah be murdered, and therefore, Joffery is the one whose hands Mycah's blood is on. Even before I got to the trial which cleared Sandor's name, I considered him innocent of that particular offense.

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I consider Sandor to be innocent in the case of Mycah because he was just following his orders. Just like Oberyn considered Tywin the guilty party in the case of Elia being murdered, Joffery is the one who ordered Mycah be murdered, and therefore, Joffery is the one whose hands Mycah's blood is on. Even before I got to the trial which cleared Sandor's name, I considered him innocent of that particular offense.

He still killed him though and laughed about it more then once :/ Like a what 10 year old child running away from the hound on horse back just to be butchered Justice wins !

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There is no divine justice in ASOIAF, especially under the auspices of the Seven. Tyrion and Sandor won their trials by combat, righteously and unrighteously because they had/were the better fighter.

Oberyn lost his because he let his passions get ahead of him and didn't finish Gregor off, allowing the big lump to pop his brain like a sheet of bubble wrap.

From a plot PoV, Tyrion winning set up the precedent of trial by combat and kept a dynamic character in play, while Sandor winning illustrated that there is no divine justice, allowed the concept of the resurrection via fire kiss into the books and kept a dynamic character in play.

Oberyn lost, because he was fundamentally one dimensional and it's more compelling from a plot PoV that he be another gallant hero to die at the hands of the nasty Lannisters, but also that it pushes Doran & Dorne as a whole further towards rebellion AND sets up Ser Robert Strong - who wouldn't have been an option if Oberyn had won and properly finished him off.

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Oberyn lost because shit happens and life isn't fair.

There's nothing more to it.

Agree.

In some other fantasy/magic series, "good guys" always win. In ASOIAF and real life, they can lose.

For instance, when Tyrion announced he wanted his TbC in the show, some Unsullied were sure Jaime would fight for him because as he was training with Bronn, he would "unleash" his chi and win by the power of love. And that... well, yeah.

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He was way too cocky and too sure about his win.



He didn't pay attention as he should have once he buried his spear in Ser Gregor.



And he was too obsessed with his thoughts for revenge on Elia Martell. He let his feelings get in his way.


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Obviously, it's the emotional baggage, right?



From an outsider's perspective, it simply looks like he attached too much emotion to the fight.


Without Oberyn's attempts at achieving some sort of catharsis through this fight, I think it's clear to everyone that he would have made short work of it and won handily.



Now, wether or not the way this fight played out was a machination of some larger plan (which I hear a lot!) is up for debate. But that is simply how it looks to me at first glance.


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If a master sets his dogs on a child and one of the dogs rips the child's throat out are not all the dogs equally guilty of killing the child?


No, it's the master who set the dogs on the child in the first place that should receive all of the blame, the dogs are just doing what they were raised to do and being obedient to their master. They're good dogs, just with a bad master.


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