Is it possible Ser Alliser Thorne and Ramsay are acting in unison?

[whitewolfwalking.]

Firstly, a lot of these subjects relating to this theory have been touched on before and I'm not stating this as canon just looking for feedback/other people's views.

The infamous pink letter is where we'll start..

There's a lot of debate about who wrote the letter i know but for the purposes of this theory I base it on Ramsay being the author due to the handwriting, knowledge of reek and the pink Bolton seal. The content however contains things which many claim Ramsay wouldn't know the details of. Examples being Mances true identity (Thorne being of the nights watch could know this) the knowledge of Stannis and lightbringer ( co conspirators we'll touch more on later) how to get under Jon's skin..

There's also the overuse of the word bastard.

I believe Thorne is in Winterfell after being sent on his ranging ( discussions about hooded man identity aplenty ). I also believe Thorne may have engineered the assasination of Jon by conspiring with other members of the nights watch. Perhaps knowing how Jon would react to the news in the letter? We know Thorne hates Jon and is probably miffed about being sent on that ranging. He could gain from the situation of Jon being displaced, perhaps as new lord commander?

This leads to the co conspirators, it's quite possible that Thorne had contact with fellow brothers, we know he and Slynt had somewhat of a following. This not only allows him to cross back over the wall, but also to keep an eye on events at the wall. Stannis departure, the political situation and discontent of some brothers (Bowen marsh etc). Trusting he had a contact at the wall this easily allows him to plot with other members, judging Jon would march on Winterfell leaving the co conspirators no choice other than to follow Thorne's plan, leaving leadership open for him to take. You can picture him saying " I'll show you all what that traitors bastard is really like.."

I feel Ramsay and Thorne have a lot to gain from each other in the short term and both seem to be cruel and not one to take being crossed lightly. I also feel this is more plausible than just one person knowing all the details contained in the letter or someone lying in the letter to trick Jon. Both Ramsay and Thorne benefit from Jon's death, it prevents reinforcements for Stannis from the north with Thorne in charge of the nights watch again and leaves only Stannis, who is stranded in the snow currently, in direct opposition of complete Bolton dominion over the north.

Thanks for reading and if this had been mentioned before I am sorry, please feel free to argue for or against this!

[Lopsang]

I think that's a good theory. I think Ramsay did write the pink letter. Thorne could have given Ramsay any information he needed to write the letter. I think Thorne also had a hand in assassinating Jon - but how Thorne could have gotten into Winterfell and why he would have tried to coax Jon out from the wall is questionable. It's possible he had no knowledge of the pink letter, told Ramsay some things he needed to know to write that letter, and just allied with Ramsay because he doesn't like Jon or Stannis and wants to help get rid of them.

[Narvi]

Thorne would first need to come back from his ranging on the other side of the wall. Don't see how you can do anything north of the wall. As big of a jerk as he is I still don't see him planning anything with anybody outside of the Night's Watch. Now if he had been there when Jon did his announcement of going south he would have been all over taking Jon out.

[bemused]

I think he was there (Castle Black) and was the one directing the whole assassination attempt ;) ,but I don't see how he can ever have been in communication with Ramsay.

[TheCourier]

I seriously doubt Ramsay wrote the pink letter, mainly because everything about it is un-Ramsaylike, not the strategic side of things. The hand writing is different, there's no skin which there normally seems to be in threat letters from him, he uses the word 'bastard' as an insult - something which Ramsay hates to hear, he calls the NW black crows - that's what the wildlings (and I think wildlings only) call them. Hence, I think it was Mance Rayder who wrote the pink letter, as some sort of betrayal, working with Val somehow, since she shows no emotion when Rattleshirt is killed, meaning she must know that Mance is alive, and they would probably be scheming something.

Also he said he saw the Stark kids at Winterfell before, and doesn't forget a face. He wold therefore know that it's actually Jeyne in Winterfell, and so he's clearly scheming since he does the escape plan anyway.

Obviously, since it's ASOIAF, I could be completely misinterpreting everything.

[Knight of the Teabags]

Thorne would first need to come back from his ranging on the other side of the wall. Don't see how you can do anything north of the wall. As big of a jerk as he is I still don't see him planning anything with anybody outside of the Night's Watch. Now if he had been there when Jon did his announcement of going south he would have been all over taking Jon out.

Agreed. I think people who think Ser Aliser is involved in any of the events that occur in the last Jon chapter of ADwD are seriously underestimating quite the bind Jon placed him in with the 'command' of the ranging.

It is kind of spelled out in the Jon chapter where he gives Ser Aliser the order. Jon thinks Ser Aliser to be a poor outdoorsman being from King's Landing and having spent his entire time on the Wall at Castle Black so he sends him with two veteran rangers. These men clearly dislike Ser Aliser as they show considerable glee at menacing him. Ser Aliser heads out into the snow with his tail between his legs.

Officially Ser Aliser is in command of the ranging, but in the reality of the situation that couldn't be further from the truth. Once out in the snow Ser Aliser is totally at the mercy of the two rangers (who are not his allies at all) due to their much greater survival skills and there being two of them vs one Ser Aliser(I seriously doubt they will respect his rank when it is his word against theirs). The reality of the situation is Jon has placed Ser Aliser under close arrest - in truth he is not the rangers' CO, he is really their prisoner!

Once he is out in the snow with two unsympathetic rangers Ser Aliser is not going to be plotting with anyone.

[mediterraneo]

I don't think that Thorne has anything to do with the mad skinner.

There is no reason in the books to believe he is nothing more than a harsh trainer for a military corp, as any mareine's drill sergent.

He is bitter, he doesn't like "the usurper's dogs" that pardoned rapers and murderers but sent him to the Wall for his loyalty to the Targarien, but there is no reason to believe that he would have liked the panic-induced plot by Marsh.

I may be wrong. But Thorne is a warrior, and warriors don't tend to stab their fellow army members during military crisises.

AND Thorne is a southern man, not the type of people Ramsay would respect or consider. And trust would be very difficult between them, in both directions.

I don't believe that Thorne plotted in any way "against" Jon, out of the electoral context in which he was supposed to choose a leader of his liking.
I may be wrong, but if he did, it is very difficult to believe a strange axis between a southern watchmen and the mad skinner.

Did they ever even meet themselves?

What would Ramsay offer to Thorne, that it is in his power to give him?

[Varamyr6skins]

Here we go

Cersei and her councilors decide to deal with Jon Snow by heading his request for more men and sending him some hired knives in disguise as raw recruits. Note there were 2 westernmen sent to the wall...So we know there's def. some plotting going on amongst the brothers.

Thorne could have easily have killed the 2 men he was sent to range with and ride hard for Eastwatch....The man Cotter Pyke left as castellan of Eastwatch I believe is Glendan, (name may be off) Whatever the name the man was a crony of sorts with Janos Slynt and Alliser Thorne. Jone remembers fondly of how Ser Glendans boot felt slamming into his ribs when Jon was dragged out of his bed towards the end of A Storm of Swords. There Ser Alliser could have a foothold to plot on the Lord Commanders downfall as well as have a source of communicating with Iron Throne AND WINTERFELL via East Watch's ravens.

One can conclude that it is possible that Thorne and the Boltons (and / or the Iron Throne) could have coordinated an attack on Jon, Thorne and Ser Glendan could easily have reached out to Bowen Marsh and given Marsh's stance on a lot of issues with Jon he would have been more easily persuaded.

I see it as a lot of the brothers were on the edge of the fence about Jon, and maybe some trash talking from ABG - Alliser, Bowen, Ser Glendan had them leaning to one side and once the Pink letter came and Jon gave his speech at the shieldhall those Brothers on the edge of the fence or leaning would have been pushed.

Alliser Thorne may be the 999th Lord Commander

[unitron]

Cersei's plan involved having Osney seducing Margaery and getting caught, and being sent, along with 100 men, to the Wall instead of being executed and once there killing Jon, but The Faith gets hold of him and gets him to give evidence against her instead of Margaery, at which point the High Septon takes Cersei prisoner, so unless she put an alternate version of that plan into effect before hand, Jon's stabbing can't be blamed on her.

[AdmiralKyrd]

I spent hours upon hours going over this in the summer, have written stuff I haven't posted anywhere that I plan to do later. In summary, albeit not so short summary....

The theory is sketchy at best, kind of like a lot of ASOIAF theories. You get half information here and there, but it does potentially fit.

Things I've thought about, several of which are somewhat original that I have not seen posted anywhere else:

0.5. Sending Alliser off to range by itself is...weak. He either doesn't come back, just gets killed, or becomes a wight. The payoff is so incredibly low for Jon's main antagonist at this point that it's almost like he's being written away from Castle Black to do other important things.

1. The timeline in the North in ADWD is VERY mappable, unlike other areas in ASOIAF. You can actually plot all army movements with reasonable accuracy. This is largely due to Stannis' army being constantly on the move, other armies moving around everywhere and arriving at specific times, and Asha's disposition of days in her march. Once you have that all done, there is plenty of time for Ser Alliser Thorne to reach Winterfell, either overland on horse from Eastwatch or via Eastwatch->White Harbor->White Knife->Winterfell.

2. Ser Alliser wants out. He does not want to be in the Night's Watch. He never did, especially now. The Lannisters just made Ramsay Snow a legit heir to the entire North (IIRC it's known at the Wall). Alliser goes on and on about Stannis being a "false king," and probably realizes he can get a reprieve from King's Landing if he helps them. In his mind, he would also be 'saving' the NW from a traitor/turncloak. It's a win-win from his POV.

3. Ser Alliser could be the Hooded Man, largely due to the HM's attitude, language, on-edge nature at being in WF, and cruel laugh at the misfortune that has befallen Theon. If he was just at Eastwatch he probably has heard from Cotter Pyke about Theon. Also I think the Wall in general knows about Theon being a Bolton hostage, although don't quote me on this one. Alliser has the lowest opinion of Starks and probably considers Theon to be another one of them, hence his rare usage of the word "kinslayer" being used on Theon. Theon also was given an Iron Kraken cloak pin for fArya's Wedding, meaning if he's wearing it (not said in text) anyone familiar with the sigils of great houses would recognize it instantly, so...pretty much everyone. The Hooded Man meets with Bolton after he encounters Theon, so its seems like there is a definite purpose to this person being there and meeting the high-up. Although Mance is in the Great Hall when the HM enters goes, the HM is covered and Alliser wouldn't give a care in the world, to put it lightly, about baseborn singers.

4. If its Ramsay writing the pink letter, no one ever explains how he knows its Mance. I don't recall if Mance handpicked the spearwives or not, but I don't think who he was taking with him would just give him away, even if tortured. They would sooner die then reveal who Abel is, same with Mance.

5. If its Mance writing the pink letter his plan makes no sense. Why get the spearwives killed at Winterfell? Why rescue Theon? Why head to Winterfell at all when he could stay just outside the castles and wait to make a move? Why send a letter that is intended to cause sudden calamity, chaos, and create a bloodbath when he is trying to prevent his people from suffering unnecessary bloodshed? If he wants to overthrow Jon he should just stay up there and wait, take over the spearwife castle that has, what 3 NWmen in it total? And have it take Castle Black by total surprise with minimal losses.

6. A lot of people make a huge point about the Pink Letter saying "black crows" in it, but if you have Mance tied to a Bolton crucifix and are parading a hot-headed Night's Watchman in front of him you know you'll get more "black crows" spurted out from Mance than twerks and tongues at a Miley Cyrus concert.

7. It would make Jon's "death" tragic, in that while marching down to Winterfell to apprehend the perceived writer of the letter (Ramsay) is betraying your vows, marching down to Winterfell to apprehend a traitor to the Night's Watch along with his protectors would actually be a legitimate and justified action of the Lord Commander.

8. There are really interesting implications of this that fit right in with GRRM's storytelling errmmm style... if you've read predictions about how the Battle of Winterfell will likely play out. Without going into too much detail and being semi-cryptic... think along the lines of... Early Oberyn vs. Mountain with a dose of Evil Admiral Ackbar in Winterfell

Problems with the theory include:

1. There is very little concrete evidence.

2. No one from King's Landing actually enacts plans up at the Wall that we are aware of. Cersei never gets around to it and Kevan...we don't know.

3. Alliser probably wouldn't murder two NWmen in cold blood, and he's not a ranger. He would have to travel on his own back to the Wall.
4. It's kind of out there.

[opinionn]

I can't remember how the timeline went but couldn't Thorne have snuck back in when Jon let thousands of wildlings past the wall?

[AdmiralKyrd]

I can't remember how the timeline went but couldn't Thorne have snuck back in when Jon let thousands of wildlings past the wall?

I hadn't considered this, but it should be possible. It's also worth noting Jon never actually saw Ser Alliser leave. He meets everyone about to leave down at the gate, then heads up to the top of the wall to watch them walk off in the distance, so there is a potential window in the POV where something might have gone awry.

[Buried Treasure]

Thorne could have easily have killed the 2 men he was sent to range with and ride hard for Eastwatch....The man Cotter Pyke left as castellan of Eastwatch I believe is Glendan, (name may be off) Whatever the name the man was a crony of sorts with Janos Slynt and Alliser Thorne. Jone remembers fondly of how Ser Glendans boot felt slamming into his ribs when Jon was dragged out of his bed towards the end of A Storm of Swords. There Ser Alliser could have a foothold to plot on the Lord Commanders downfall as well as have a source of communicating with Iron Throne AND WINTERFELL via East Watch's ravens.

One can conclude that it is possible that Thorne and the Boltons (and / or the Iron Throne) could have coordinated an attack on Jon, Thorne and Ser Glendan could easily have reached out to Bowen Marsh and given Marsh's stance on a lot of issues with Jon he would have been more easily persuaded.

Thorne could not easily have snuck back. 'Knight of the Teabags' spelt out very nicely why Thorne could not have snuck back in a post just 2 before yours. If you think it was easy offer a counterargument, until then the best argument this thread offers is that it would have been hard.

And why would Thorne even think to travel to Eastwatch? He was out of contact beyond the Wall. When he left, Jon did not even know there were wildlings at Hardcore in need of rescuing, never mind Hewitt being left in command whilst Pyke commanded the rescue.

I can't remember how the timeline went but couldn't Thorne have snuck back in when Jon let thousands of wildlings past the wall?

If would have been hard. The wildlings weren't let in en masse but filtered through the narrow gate. They were counted in and also had to go through the process of giving up their valuables. Thorne is well known to the brothers and would have been highly likely to have been recognised.

And just because Jon did not see Thorne leaving doesn't mean that he didn't. Or that men Jon trusted didn't. The two rangers Jon picked to go with Thorne would hardly have ridden away witrout him.

[Varamyr6skins]

Ser Alliser was master-at-arms at Eastwatch before he was at castle black. having spent about a third of his life teaching raw recruits, he most likely has some friends at Eastwatch. That being said, I know this is a "what if" but what if Allisers party did encounter wildlings, lets say Ser Alliser saw a chance to escape and he took it, made his way to Eastwatch, and is keeping a low profile there with the help of his old buddies....

What was Alliser said to Jon before he left......"You better hope its a wildling blade that kills me Lord Snow, the ones the others kill don't stay dead.......and they remember. Im coming back Lord Snow. "

[AdmiralKyrd]

I found this quote in Dany's ADWD chapters a few days ago. It could be a cleverly placed hint or nothing.

“Ah, there is the thorn in the bower, my queen,” said Hizdahr zo Loraq. “Sad to say, Yunkai has no faith in your promises. They keep plucking the same string on the harp, about some envoy that your dragons set on fire.”

I can't help but find GRRM's chosen words and phrases interesting in the same passage. It's the only place a thorn is mentioned in ADWD.

1. A thorn

2. that is in the bower (place in a castle)

3. the playing of a harp

4. mentioning a person set on fire

[Agamemnon]

I found this quote in Dany's ADWD chapters a few days ago. It could be a cleverly placed hint or nothing.

“Ah, there is the thorn in the bower, my queen,” said Hizdahr zo Loraq. “Sad to say, Yunkai has no faith in your promises. They keep plucking the same string on the harp, about some envoy that your dragons set on fire.”

I can't help but find GRRM's chosen words and phrases interesting in the same passage. It's the only place a thorn is mentioned in ADWD.

1. A thorn

2. that is in the bower (place in a castle)

3. the playing of a harp

4. mentioning a person set on fire

This. I like this.

Personally for all the reasons stated above as well as my gut feeling, I thinks Allister is planning something big. Whether he has been involved in one of the events that have already passed, or he is plotting something new remains to be seen but Ill be my sword that he isnt North of the Wall freezing his junk off.