The Latest News
Connect with Us

Notable Releases
From the Store
Game of Thrones 2014 Wall Calendar
Game of Thrones 2014 Calendar
HBO US
Featured Sites
License Holders

Jump to content


Photo

Would things had been allowed to get this bad if The Baratheons liked, respected and cooperated with each other?


  • Please log in to reply
15 replies to this topic

#1 Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren

Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,261 posts

Posted 29 August 2014 - 01:39 AM

We call correctly the Lannisters a dysfuctional family, but this dysfuctional family manages to usurp power in large part due to the dysfuctional relationship among the Baratheon brothers.

 

If Robert listens to Stannis and Jon Arryn about Janos Slynt, a less corrupt decisive player backing the Lannisters remains.

 

If Robert and Stannis like each other more then Stannis and Robert cooperate on the incest issue. Renly and Stannis who worry about the Lannisters and both had their own plots to get rid of them (one because of the incest wanted to do so and was gathering all available resources to do so, the other out of fear and he wanted the Tyrells to replace them) I can see them work for that objective.

 

After Robert's death Renly declares himself king first while Stannis plans in Dragonstone. Until the decisive confrontation that gives Tyrells to the Lannisters and kills Renly. However if both cooperated from the start and communicated, their combined forces, especially with Renly's good relationship with the Tyrells and a Stannis who in this scenario accepts them, instead of fighting each other and each using their advantage (army and red witch) against each other, they would use it against their enemies.

 

This isn't a particularly novel observation to most of you I know but it is true that a lot of the problems of the Baratheon failures and dynasty had their source not only in particular failures of Robert's kingship (there were those) or the actions of the Lannisters (again played a decisive role) but in the dysfunction of the three brothers relationship.

 

I am reminded of the scene of the stag and the wolf at each other's throats and I imagine a scene ith two or three stags killing each other as well.


Edited by Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren, 29 August 2014 - 01:41 AM.


#2 PirateVergo

PirateVergo

    Noble

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 538 posts

Posted 29 August 2014 - 01:41 AM

Things would have been way easier if Renly didn't exist.



#3 Jon of the (Evil) Dead

Jon of the (Evil) Dead

    Up-jumped Schemer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,219 posts

Posted 29 August 2014 - 01:51 AM

Things would have been way easier if Renly didn't exist.


Because the Tyrells would have sided with Joffrey a lot sooner, you mean?

Actually, things would have been way easier if Stannis didn't exist. Think about it. After Bob's death, Renly automatically becomes king, which means Ned is compelled to do what he orders, which means he goes through with Renly's plan of seizing Cersei's kids, which means the Lannisters are neutralized, which means no Wot5k and a united kingdom thanks to his marriage to Margaery. To be sure, other inconvenients might occur after a while, like maybe a lack of an heir, or Petyr's manipulations, but nobody is perfect

#4 Claire of House Thorpe

Claire of House Thorpe

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 257 posts

Posted 29 August 2014 - 01:56 AM

If the Baratheons were cooperative, then most of what happened in the books would not have happened at all.

#5 Pod The Impaler

Pod The Impaler

    In The Mouth Of Starkness

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,421 posts

Posted 29 August 2014 - 02:12 AM

If the Baratheons were cooperative, then most of what happened in the books would not have happened at all.

 

 

 

 

I think in general the whole situation would not have developed in such a way. Robert would trust Stannis enough to actually reward him with the position he deserved. Stannis, if he knew of the incest, would have more easily gone to Robert with the information, because Robert would trust he was not just scandal-mongering. The realm would have been less corrupt and decayed. Renly might not be such a lightweight either, puffed up on pride.


Edited by Pod The Impaler, 29 August 2014 - 02:13 AM.


#6 James Arryn

James Arryn

    Vice President of the Autocracy

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,801 posts

Posted 29 August 2014 - 02:17 AM

Things would have been way easier if Renly didn't exist.


Lol.

If not for Shadowbaby Assassin, war over, Lannisters defeated, Baratheons rule, peace, people not killing each other right now, etc.

If not for Renly, things are pretty much as they are ATM.

Which one is better?

I agree this one's more fun, but there is no doubt that Renly was the better choice for Weateros. Stannis is the reason the Lannisters still rule.

#7 John Doe

John Doe

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,205 posts

Posted 29 August 2014 - 02:26 AM

If the Baratheons were cooperative, then most of what happened in the books would not have happened at all.

How so?

 

Had Robert loved Stannis, maybe even given him the Stormlands, it would not have changed the fact that he believed Joffrey to be his son. Stannis would not have inherited.

 

Regardless of whether Stannis or Renly got the Stormlands, the Tyrells wouldn't have married Margaery off to Renly, as he would not have crowned himself King. Maybe the Tyrells would have fought longside the Lannister much sooner.

 

Stannis would likely still have attacked KL and (there is no reason to assume otherwise), failed. Afterwards he would still go North (gain, no reason to assume otherwise).



#8 John Doe

John Doe

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,205 posts

Posted 29 August 2014 - 02:31 AM

 

If Robert listens to Stannis and Jon Arryn about Janos Slynt, a less corrupt decisive player backing the Lannisters remains.

 

If Robert and Stannis like each other more then Stannis and Robert cooperate on the incest issue. Renly and Stannis who worry about the Lannisters and both had their own plots to get rid of them (one because of the incest wanted to do so and was gathering all available resources to do so, the other out of fear and he wanted the Tyrells to replace them) I can see them work for that objective.

Chances are that Stannis or Robert would have been killed, though. Probably Robert wouldn't have sought for evidence for the incest and,, alarmed, Cersei would have killed him and Stannis. Or Stannis would have worked together with Jon Arryn, and the same events as in the books would have happened. The last difference I can think of right now is that Robert could have made Stannis hand, in this case he would have died instead of Ned and Renly would be King by now.

 

And I don't think Stannis would have accepted Renly as King, even if he had loved him more. He would not kneel to Shireen either.


Edited by John Doe, 29 August 2014 - 02:34 AM.


#9 RainGhost

RainGhost

    Noble

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 570 posts

Posted 29 August 2014 - 02:39 AM

Yep, if the Baratheons were a functional family then things would have been very different. Stannis would have told Robert and Renly about the twincest, Robert would have told Ned, together they'd have brought down the Lannisters, Robert would have married Margaerey and had true born children. Problem solved.

#10 Kate Poem

Kate Poem

    Noble

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 665 posts

Posted 29 August 2014 - 10:53 AM

Because the Tyrells would have sided with Joffrey a lot sooner, you mean?

Actually, things would have been way easier if Stannis didn't exist. Think about it.

 

Some castellan, toddler and maester - Tyrells, Redwyne etc. etc. Storm's End. What could be happen, if on Storm's End's walls appeared white flag?

 

What really happened, when king of the North lost Winterfell?

 

As You said earlier "think about it."



#11 LionoftheWest

LionoftheWest

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,111 posts

Posted 29 August 2014 - 10:55 AM

If all the Baratheons had worked with each other, or even just Stannis and Renly then I think there's a good chance that the Stags would've held a firm grip on the throne for at least this and the next generation.



#12 Acolyte of Radmure

Acolyte of Radmure

    West Coast Lannisters of Casterly Rock, ya dig?

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 953 posts

Posted 29 August 2014 - 11:00 AM

I'm pretty sure the Tyrells wouldn't be up for backing a Florent queen if Renly supported Stannis. 

 



#13 Jon of the (Evil) Dead

Jon of the (Evil) Dead

    Up-jumped Schemer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,219 posts

Posted 29 August 2014 - 11:22 AM

Some castellan, toddler and maester - Tyrells, Redwyne etc. etc. Storm's End. What could be happen, if on Storm's End's walls appeared white flag?
 
What really happened, when king of the North lost Winterfell?
 
As You said earlier "think about it."


Not necessarily. Maybe Robert doesn't go to the Vale at all, so he can stay with the lonely Renly, so he doesn't get betrothed to Lyanna, so there's not even a rebellion

#14 devilrob6

devilrob6

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 824 posts

Posted 29 August 2014 - 11:53 AM

That would probably have meant less power for the Lannisters in KL, Stannis getting Storm's End, people like Varys, Littlefinger, Pycelle and Janos Slynt would not have remained in / or risen to powerful positions. They would have dealt with Cersei and Jaime together because of the twincest. Renly gets the Tyrells on board by replacing Cersei by Margaery as Robert's Queen, as he first intended to do.  If Jon Arryn was still murdered, Stannis could have been made Hand and Robert would not have gone to the North. Ned would have remained happily in Winterfell, so did his children. Or he'd have called his banners to aid the Baratheons in dealing with Tywin. So that war would have been less bad.

 

Bran would still be able to walk, he'd not go North to Bloodraven. Stannis would not have gone to aid the Wall, neither does Melisandre. The Others win.



#15 Gibzit

Gibzit

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 24 posts

Posted 29 August 2014 - 12:13 PM

if only the reynes had kicked the lanister's butts back when they could now look at them



#16 LionoftheWest

LionoftheWest

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,111 posts

Posted 29 August 2014 - 12:34 PM

if only the reynes had kicked the lanister's butts back when they could now look at them

 

I can rather imagine that you would have liked that. Truth is, the Reynes tried and came to the same end as all the enemies of House Lannister.


Edited by LionoftheWest, 29 August 2014 - 12:34 PM.