NorthernXY Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Before Sam leaves the Wall, he mentions to Jon that the records show obsidian and dragonsteel were the only known weapons to be able to kill the Others. Jon assumes dragonsteel to mean Valyrian steel. This doesn't make sense because Valyria didn't exist till 3,000 years later. During ADWD Jon mentions an ice dragon 3 times in context of the cold, his knowledge coming from Old Nan's stories. Never before is an ice dragon mentioned other than the constellation with its blue eye pointing north and its tail south. This is probably GRRM setting-up the idea of an ice dragon in the future, or that at one point they did exist just like fire dragons. We know from Ygritte that they don't have the same names for all constellations, the best example being the Red Wanderer in the 7K and the Thief to the Free Folk. Yet we know by Osha both cultures know and call it the Ice Dragon. While obviously there is culture exchange going north, hence why most of the Free Folk speak the common tongue, they probably never saw a fire dragon till Queen Alysanne and King Jaehaerys I flew to the wall. His grandson, Aerys I told his grandchildren about how Jaehaerys fought giants, wargs and wildlings, something some doubted as true because not even brothers of the NW believe in giants at the start of AGOT, so there is little chance any of the wildlings actually saw the dragons. Even so, 250 years is a short amount of time for them to rename the constellation as a culture if it was called something else. Even then most wildlings wouldn't know what a dragon looks like, so there had to be pretext for this in the past of dragons. The wights and others both have blue eyes, they're associated with the cold and north, just like the fabled ice dragon(s). What if there was really an ice dragon? I don't know if fought for or against the Others, may haps even helped Bran the Builder build the wall if it/they breathed ice instead of fire. It's been explained that dragon bones are dark because of their high iron content and Valyrian swords are darker than regular steel and forged with magic, which dragons are. May haps the composition of the bones of dragons is the perfect combination of iron, carbon, other metals, and magic that make Valyrian steel so special. However it was first realized by the First Men that the bones of an ice dragon could be forged into unnaturally great weapons with inherent magic. The first and possibly only one of these being the original Ice, named so because it was forged from an ice dragon, hence dragonsteel 3,000 years before Valyria. The First Men didn't know about iron, just dragon bones, so after the original Ice was forged and there were no more ice dragons to produce dragon bones, they could only forge bronze weapons and armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biter the Gallant Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Wow. Really good.We cannot know for sure, but it simply sounds so cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 IMO the original Ice was loot from a successful battle against the Others. So it was an Other sword once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Umber Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Interesting theory. Kudos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Wolf Smith Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 IMO the first sword called Ice, was an Others sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sodd Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 IMO the original Ice was loot from a successful battle against the Others. So it was an Other sword once. it can't be, their descriptions are completely different also, it can't be made of dragonbone, unless an ice dragons bone is completely different from the fiery type, and by some coincidence exactly identical to valyrian steel the armorer who reworked Ice surely would notice (and mention) if the material was diffrent from valyrian steel (he had worked on valyrian steel weapons before) also would recognize dragonbone, as it is a rare but still available material (bows are mentioned multiple times) EDIT: sorry, didn't remember the Ice in the novel inherited its name from an older sword, we know nothing about that one, so this all might be possible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Targaryen Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 It all sounds good. I would put my money on Ice being an Other sword, but it being an Ice Dagon-bone works, too. I wonder if the original Ice resurfaces from the crypts or whereever it is, in the last two books. It would be cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthernXY Posted August 29, 2014 Author Share Posted August 29, 2014 It all sounds good. I would put my money on Ice being an Other sword, but it being an Ice Dagon-bone works, too. I wonder if the original Ice resurfaces from the crypts or whereever it is, in the last two books. It would be cool. The notion that it could be an Other sword occurred to me, but figured that it would melt in the heat and it can only be wielded by Others. A bypass to that would be if a Stark bred with an Other, but that probably would go against their alliance with the CotF and would be the Night's King. Was trying to come with a logical way dragonsteel could have existed 3,000 years before Valyria was founded. Even then we don't know when they actually started making their swords. I'd expect a lot more conquering if they had dragons over a 5,000 year period. A practice among Vikings was to include part of a fierce animal, like the bone of a bear, into the making of a sword to give it the "spirit" of the bear. Ulfberht swords are closest in analogy to Valyrian steel, though they appear more Damscus like in appearance. The technology was lost to make both types (Ulfberht and Valyrian), and both were/are the epitome of swords. Highly doubt the original Ice was just a bronze sword that was set aside/broken when Andals arrived with their steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Actually, there were dragons all over Westeros during the Age of Heroes. Stories of them and their slayers will be found with the Free Folk as well. Furthermore, GRRM specifically said that Valyrian steel was not made from dragonbones, making an icy parallel rather unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSpymaster Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Could ice dragons be the reason why the others are moving south.....ice dragon awakens and scares off the others...?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Could ice dragons be the reason why the others are moving south.....ice dragon awakens and scares off the others...?? And then, the Others are brought into the realm and we fight the race of Ice Dragons...only to realize that the Ice Dragons are being chased southwards by Orcs....and the orcs are being chased south by Hobbits... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snarky Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 SImilar in topic is the forging of the Dayne sword, Dawn. I just came across this and thought it might contribute something to this discussion. In the wiki Dawn's blade is described by, "Its blade is as pale as milkglass" and the Ghost grass of the Shadow Lands is referred to as "taller than a human on horseback and has stalks as pale as milkglass." I don't have a real theory, but thought the connection was interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthernXY Posted August 29, 2014 Author Share Posted August 29, 2014 Actually, there were dragons all over Westeros during the Age of Heroes. Stories of them and their slayers will be found with the Free Folk as well. ​Never heard this and can't find it on the wiki for Dragons or Age of Heroes. Only fire dragons mentioned are from Essos. Exception being the Grey King who slew Nagga, a sea dragon. The records also tell, "Those old histories are full of kings who reigned for a hundred years, and knights riding around a thousand years before there were knights." -- Sam Furthermore, GRRM specifically said that Valyrian steel was not made from dragonbones, making an icy parallel rather unlikely. Hmm, didn't know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthernXY Posted August 29, 2014 Author Share Posted August 29, 2014 Guess you're right: According to legend, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield killed Urrax. But why aren't there any dragon bones? The bones of Nagga are probably just the remains of a whale. How did the First Men kill them all? May haps the Daynes took the last dragons/dragon eggs with them to Valyria? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenfyre Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Furthermore, GRRM specifically said that Valyrian steel was not made from dragonbones, making an icy parallel rather unlikely. But he also said it was spell-forged via dragonfire. Not sure what the proposed ice dragon equivalent would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Not Appearing Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Ice was just that, then summer came and when it melted... it was gone forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 But why aren't there any dragon bones? The bones of Nagga are probably just the remains of a whale. How did the First Men kill them all? May haps the Daynes took the last dragons/dragon eggs with them to Valyria? There are. The Targaryens collected some of them as well. But he also said it was spell-forged via dragonfire. Not sure what the proposed ice dragon equivalent would be. Nope, he didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthernXY Posted August 29, 2014 Author Share Posted August 29, 2014 There are. The Targaryens collected some of them as well. I meant other than the Targaryen dragon bones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 I meant other than the Targaryen dragon bones. Targaryen collecting the bones of Westerosi dragons dead millennia before they came to Dragonstone. Not their own ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drth Fel Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 And then, the Others are brought into the realm and we fight the race of Ice Dragons...only to realize that the Ice Dragons are being chased southwards by Orcs....and the orcs are being chased south by Hobbits...^^^This. Also, Ice was forged from the shards of Narsil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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