Ukraine 12: All Russia wants is a little "Жилая площадь"

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Precisely. None of these countries entered the Russian sphere of influence willingly. Warsaw pact troops were in fact Russian troops, kept apart from the locals and used to squash any popular uprisings. They used a lucky moment in history to slip from the grasp of this imperialist power. They chose against Russia, because for the last centuries, they did get nothing but violence and oppression from there and what happens in Ukraine proves them right.

Hence, there are perfectly good reasons to oppose Russia's unfathomable desire to move back into 19th century politics.

[daskool]

Alarich, on 30 Aug 2014 - 03:16 AM, said:

Precisely. None of these countries entered the Russian sphere of influence willingly. Warsaw pact troops were in fact Russian troops, kept apart from the locals and used to squash any popular uprisings. They used a lucky moment in history to slip from the grasp of this imperialist power. They chose against Russia, because for the last centuries, they did get nothing but violence and oppression from there and what happens in Ukraine proves them right.

Is the argument now that Russia is an aggresive totalitarian dictatorship out to conquer Eastern Europe? It doesn't seem that way from my perspective. If they wanted to conquer Ukraine why haven't they? The Russian army could roll through the country in about a week. Sanctions? Putin's fear of distracting Obama from golf? Pah!

Where's the end game here? Russia will NOT back down, I think by now that's clear. So what does the west do next? Barring Scot's suggestion that we re-inact Napoleons long march from Moscow what leverage do we have? Not much carrot and no stick I reckon.

[Free Northman Reborn]

CNN just announced that the Obama and other Western leaders have explicitly ruled out any military action against Russia in Ukraine.

They are considering further sanctions instead. Ironically, with the Ruble hitting new lows against the dollar, latest Russian opinion polls put Putin's approval rating at 85%.

So in short, the Russian population has national pride and supports Putin's strong stance on Ukraine. Sanctions are not changing that.

[Prosesskrift]

Alarich, on 30 Aug 2014 - 03:16 AM, said:

Is the argument now that Russia is an aggresive totalitarian dictatorship out to conquer Eastern Europe? It doesn't seem that way from my perspective. If they wanted to conquer Ukraine why haven't they? The Russian army could roll through the country in about a week. Sanctions? Putin's fear of distracting Obama from golf? Pah!

Where's the end game here? Russia will NOT back down, I think by now that's clear. So what does the west do next? Barring Scot's suggestion that we re-inact Napoleons long march from Moscow what leverage do we have? Not much carrot and no stick I reckon.

I have not seen anyone argue that Russia would seek to conquer Eastern Europe. Could you point towards those claims?

[Ghjhero]

CNN just announced that the Obama and other Western leaders have explicitly ruled out any military action against Russia in Ukraine.

They are considering further sanctions instead. Ironically, with the Ruble hitting new lows against the dollar, latest Russian opinion polls put Putin's approval rating at 85%.

So in short, the Russian population has national pride and supports Putin's strong stance on Ukraine. Sanctions are not changing that.

They just gave Putin the green light he needs to take and do as much in Ukriane as he wants! He might as well just roll all the way into Kiev for all the rest of the world seems to care.

[The Iceman of the North]

Is the argument now that Russia is an aggresive totalitarian dictatorship out to conquer Eastern Europe? It doesn't seem that way from my perspective.

Hegemony doesn't necessarily mean conquest. The Ukraine situation demonstrates that Kremlin believes that they have the right to dictate foreign policy in countries within their sphere of interest. This attitude is enough to justify any Eastern European country to want to join NATO, and demonstrates why NATO ought to allow these countries to join.

[daskool]

CNN just announced that the Obama and other Western leaders have explicitly ruled out any military action against Russia in Ukraine.

They are considering further sanctions instead. Ironically, with the Ruble hitting new lows against the dollar, latest Russian opinion polls put Putin's approval rating at 85%.

So in short, the Russian population has national pride and supports Putin's strong stance on Ukraine. Sanctions are not changing that.

Russia is a trans-continental giant, the idea that sanctions could inflict any real suffering on it's people is silly. By far the toughest sanction regime ever enacted would be against South Africa and Iraq respectively. The former took decades to have any effect, the latter led to the death of hundreds of thousands and did nothing to overthrow the regime. It's more blathering nonsense from Obama. Rather than admit the obvious that he, yet again, completely mis-judged Russia's commitment to keeping Ukraine within it's sphere of influence. Instead of accepting the inevitable, coming to a negotiated settlement that will leave the Ukraine intact but out of NATO, we'll have a few months more blather and pointless killing and then end up with Russia getting everything it wants anyway.

[daskool]

Hegemony doesn't necessarily mean conquest. The Ukraine situation demonstrates that Kremlin believes that they have the right to dictate foreign policy in countries within their sphere of interest. This attitude is enough to justify any Eastern European country to want to join NATO, and demonstrates why NATO ought to allow these countries to join.

Yes that's entirely correct, Moscow does believe that the Ukraine belongs in it's sphere of influence, just like my country believes Mexico and Canada belongs in it's. Great powers act in this way, always have and always will.

[The Iceman of the North]

Yes that's entirely correct, Moscow does believe that the Ukraine belongs in it's sphere of influence, just like my country believes Mexico and Canada belongs in it's. Great powers act in this way, always have and always will.

Which doesn't mean that the rest of the world should accommodate you megalomania.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

CNN is now reporting 4,000 to 5,000 Russian troops in "formed units" in Ukraine. I think they're dropping the charade:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/29/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html?c=homepage-t

[The Fallen]

Yes that's entirely correct, Moscow does believe that the Ukraine belongs in it's sphere of influence, just like my country believes Mexico and Canada belongs in it's. Great powers act in this way, always have and always will.

Are we involved in the inner politics of these countries? Do we mass troops on their borders to try and influence their politics? Do we send troops into these countries to try and destabilize them?

[TerraPrime]

There are legitimate routes to try to influence the policy directions of your neighboring countries, like trade tarrifs or publicity. Fomenting insusrection and supplying arms and training to the insurgents is not one of them.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

TP,

But the US, through Victoria Nuland, gave money to NGO's operating in Ukraine (plus cookies) that's just like invading and annexing pieces of Ukraine. How can you not see the incredible symmetry between what the US did and what Russia is doing?

You obviously haven't been listening to the glorious truths being offered by RT news.

[Ghjhero]

Are we involved in the inner politics of these countries? Do we mass troops on their borders to try and influence their politics? Do we send troops into these countries to try and destabilize them?

Ever hear of the Mexican American War?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Ghjero,

You mean the war that occured 168 years ago? Russia is invading Ukraine right now. I don't think the two events are really comperable.

[Ghjhero]

Ghjhero,

You mean the war that occured 168 years ago? Russia is invading Ukraine right now. I don't think the two events are really comperable.

In terms of how nations I'll control events they consider to part of their spheres of influence it is still a relevant example.

What does the thread title translate to?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Gjhero,

The world in 1846 is not the world in 2014. Nations were regularly conqured in 1846. Not so much today.

It translates to "living space".

[Ghjhero]

Gjhero,

The world in 1846 is not the world in 2014. Nations were regularly conqured in 1846. Not so much today.

It translates to "living space".

To think that invading and conquering other nations is an obsolete concept then think again. Russia is doing it right now, and to say that stopped happening in the 1800s is also wrong. The biggest war in human history was all about conquering other nations for their land and resources.

[Alarich]

To think that invading and conquering other nations is an obsolete concept then think again. Russia is doing it right now, and to say that stopped happening in the 1800s is also wrong. The biggest war in human history was all about conquering other nations for their land and resources.

And what is your point? That noone should have opposed the agressor?

[Ghjhero]

And what is your point? That noone should have opposed the agressor?

No my point is that wars are still going to be fought over land and resources. Saying that "it's 2014" isn't going to magically make that not happen anymore.