Ukraine 12: All Russia wants is a little "Жилая площадь"

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Finland should join NATO yesterday. Does Finland have a significant Russian minority?

[Ser Reptitious]

Sigh. No, I wasn't. I was talking more about bucking out of the sanctions alliance, retaining trade ties with Russia etc. And not simply going along with the EU position even if it is in Germany's economic interest to stay on good terms with Russia.

Well, it sure didn't sound like that in your initial post, especially the part where you indicated that national pride in Germany post-WWII apparently became a bad thing, as if there was some doubt whether such qualms were truly justified. Even though I'm skeptical I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that your post was simply completely tone deaf towards all the countries that suffered horribly at the hands of combined German and Russian aggression, rather than actually advocating more of the same.

EDIT

And, ok, seeing as you're from one of the countries that might be affected, I admit your position is quite understandable.

Thanks!

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Would Putin act against Finland if it tried to join NATO?

[Free Northman Reborn]

Would Putin act against Finland if it tried to join NATO?

Scott

Do you have a set rule for the ratio of your posts that have to consist solely of a single sentence question, before you are allowed to post a statement or other more complex comment of some kind? And is that ratio in the region of 90%?

[Free Northman Reborn]

Well, it sure didn't sound like that in your initial post, especially the part where you indicated that national pride in Germany post-WWII apparently became a bad thing, as if there was some doubt whether such qualms were truly justified. Even though I'm skeptical I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that your post was simply completely tone deaf towards all the countries that suffered horribly at the hands of combined German and Russian aggression, rather than actually advocating more of the same.

Thanks!

Well I stand by the national pride comment, as I believe all nations should have national pride, else lose a part of their soul.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

FNR,

99% of the time I'm posting from my iPhone. Thus, brief posts.

[The Fallen]

Finland should join NATO yesterday. Does Finland have a significant Russian minority?

The article is pretty short. But apparently Finland does most of it's business (both imports and exports) with Russia. So they would probably be hurt badly if Russia enacted economic sanctions. By the way, the imports are majority oil.

It also seems that there's enough of an political opposition in the coalition government not to join NATO and that has kept them from joining.

Would Putin act against Finland if it tried to join NATO?

Apparently, Finland is pretty adept at stopping Russian incursions into their homeland. However, they are a bit nervous about these Russian reconnaissance planes flying in their air space.

[Free Northman Reborn]

FNR,

99% of the time I'm posting from my iPhone. Thus, brief posts.

Ah. I thought you just liked posting leading questions, to guide the conversation into interesting directions.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Fallen,

The Winter War was 1940-1941. The Russian army has changed a bit since that time. My thought is that looking to it as proof of Finland's strength against the Russians is a bit like looking to the War of 1812 as proof of the UK and Canada's strength against US military adventurism.

[Prosesskrift]

From your reference to the Leopard 2 tank, you're from Germany I take it. (I was actually researching the Leopard 2 tank the other day when trying to see how Russian tanks stack up against the other top tanks in the world - the issue being kind of topical these days, wouldn't you say... Well apparently, the Leopard 2 is ranked as the top tank in the world, while the much famed American Abrahms only comes in at number 4 or thereabouts. That came as a bit of a surprise, I must admit. Well done, you chaps in Bavaria.)

Well here's a thought. Why not instead join with Russia in an alliance, rather than opposing them?

Germany is having to prop up the entire bankrupt EU in any case. Why do you want to be joined at the hip with all those insignificant countries holding you back?

Imagine if you team up with Russia instead. The two powerhouses of Eurasia. You would have all the natural resources you could ever need and a permanent veto member of the UN Security council on your side. You could form a powerbloc of 250 million people that becomes a new centre of influence to rival the US and the rising Chinese and Indian superpowers.

And in the process you could get back a bit of the national pride that apparently became a sin in Germany post WW2. Heck, you hardly see a German display a bit of national pride without having him apologize for it first. That's got to end, man.

Germany and Russia have more interests in common than issues that should divide you. Just think what you could accomplish together. The mind shudders at the thought.

It would redefine the world balance of power for generations to come. And once the UK also go their own way, this failed experiment that was the EU can finally come to a welcome end.

I think this post, more than anything, shows how little you know of Europe and Russia. Russia is not a powerhouse no matter which definition of the word you chose. The revenue of the Russian state is not even twice that of Norway, a state of 5 million!

At any rate, the More Cynical Than Thou approach of some posters here is frustrating. It has no value as an argument, nor does it provide anything new. It's the refuge of people unable to argue their own views yet refusing to recognise their inability to do so.

[Free Northman Reborn]

At any rate, the More Cynical Than Thou approach of some posters here is frustrating. It has no value as an argument, nor does it provide anything new. It's the refuge of people unable to argue their own views yet refusing to recognise their inability to do so.

I'd like to explore that statement a bit further, when we both have some time.

[daskool]

Ghjhero,

I'm saying the practice should be extinct.

Absolutely, now if only Serbia had nuclear bombs back in the day, then Murica wouldn't have been able to bomb the crap out of it and take a chunk of it's territory.

[The Fallen]

Fallen,

The Winter War was 1940-1941. The Russian army has changed a bit since that time. My thought is that looking to it as proof of Finland's strength against the Russians is a bit like looking to the War of 1812 as proof of the UK and Canada's strength against US military adventurism.

There's that and Finland's attack on Russia during WWII. I get your point. According to the article, during the Cold War Finland is armed to the teeth against the Russians. Maybe Finland is not enough of a pushover for Russia to go after them?

Absolutely, now if only Serbia had nuclear bombs back in the day, then Murica wouldn't have been able to bomb the crap out of it and take a chunk of it's territory.

You mean I can move to US territory in Serbia?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Daskool,

Absolutely, now if only Serbia had nuclear bombs back in the day, then Murica wouldn't have been able to bomb the crap out of it and take a chunk of it's territory.

So, we're back to false equvilencies? I take it you are abandoning "no proof of Russian invasion" and "shit happens" in favor of this, old, tactic?

[Istakhr]

Absolutely, now if only Serbia had nuclear bombs back in the day, then Murica wouldn't have been able to bomb the crap out of it and take a chunk of it's territory.

Where is this fabled American territory in Serbia that are talked about again and again in these threads?

[DanteGabriel]

Well I stand by the national pride comment, as I believe all nations should have national pride, else lose a part of their soul.

Could you please define what you mean by national pride? Because when I read it and your other posts I can't help but think "national pride" is a collective desire to dominate and exploit other nations.

[Ser Reptitious]

Could you please define what you mean by national pride? Because when I read it and your other posts I can't help but think "national pride" is a collective desire to dominate and exploit other nations.

Yup, that's pretty much the way it reads to me as well.

There is nothing wrong in my books with a person taking pride in certain positive features of his/her country, such as a Norwegian extolling the beauty of its fjords or a French person swelling with pride over France's unmatched ability to create some of the best cuisine and wine in the world, to name two random examples.

But when national pride turns into "we are better than others" (not in terms of an ability, but simply as a people) it becomes problematic, to say the least. FNR seems to suggest that in the aftermath of WWII Germany should have taken more of a "shit happens, but we're still the best" attitude. I, on the other hand, think that one of the things that Germans should take more of a quiet pride in is precisely the fact that they didn't shy away from painful soul searching after the horrors that the country had committed.

In fact, it seems to me that it is pretty much the only country which has ever done that. Japan certainly never openly atoned for its crimes during the same time, Turkey still loudly denies its attempted genocide of the Armenians, and the vast majority of Serbs dismiss the shelling of Sarajevo and the crimes of Srebrenica with "everyone was doing bad things at the time". So kudos to Germany for NOT taking the psychologically easier way out by adopting a defensive posture and trying to deflect blame.

[daskool]

Could you please define what you mean by national pride? Because when I read it and your other posts I can't help but think "national pride" is a collective desire to dominate and exploit other nations.

I think the term national pride means taking pride in your nation? It's history, language, culture etc...

Where is this fabled American territory in Serbia that are talked about again and again in these threads?

Kosovo is a NATO protectorate, in other words a possession of the United States. No western power gave the remotest crap about Serbian sovereignty when that country was being forcibly dismantled via US air power.

Daskool,

So, we're back to false equvilencies? I take it you are abandoning "no proof of Russian invasion" and "shit happens" in favor of this, old, tactic?

It's relevant to the discussion IMO as you consigned American disregard for the invoidability of national borders to ancient history which is a patent untruth.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Daskool,

Kosovo is a NATO protectorate, in other words a possession of the United States. No western power gave the remotest crap about Serbian sovereignty when that country was being forcibly dismantled via US air power.

It's relevant to the discussion IMO as you consigned American disregard for the invoidability of national borders to ancient history which is a patent untruth

I was unaware that Kosovo was a territorial action against Serbia wherein Kosovo was incorporated into the US or another NATO State at the close of hostilities. Or that the US and other NATO States placed unmarked troops on the ground in Kosovo all the while claiming that no NATO troops were anywhere near Kosovo.

Further, your implication that NATO exists only as a proxy for the US is laughable at best. France left NATO's command structure and refused to place its troops under an American when it was displeased with NATOs direction and unlike Russia's Warsaw Pact NATO troops didn't then roll into Paris to force the French back into the alliance. There is quite a difference between the actions of Russia and those of NATO.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/11/AR2009031100547.html

Therefore, your attempts to suggest NATO actions in Kosovo and Russian actions in Ukraine are equivilent that further NATO is a proxy for the US like the Warsaw pact was a proxy for Russia are without merit.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Interesting article on the logical solution to the Ukraine crisis.

http://theweek.com/article/index/267245/why-the-west-should-let-russia-have-eastern-ukraine

Basically, accepting that like in the case of Iraq, borders on a map don't always coincide with nationhood as viewed by people on the ground. Many borders are just accidents of history and not necessarily reflective of sentiments among the people. Issues like ethnicity, culture, language etc. have a far more important role than many seem to grasp.